The Traders' Den  

  The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble > Lossy or Lossless?
 

Notices

Lossy or Lossless? Please use this forum to post spectral and frequency analysis posts about shows you have your doubts about.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #46  
Old 2009-11-21, 01:33 PM
showtaper's Avatar
showtaper showtaper is offline
245.19 GB/431.58 GB/1.76
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Re: Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside

Quote:
Originally Posted by pissah View Post
Hello! has anybody had trouble with Trader's Little Helper's tool for checking for lossy files?
I have taped a few things straight to WAV, then after a bit of tweaking and EQing I often get a "source cannot be specified" or even "looks like MP3"
I KNOW there was no mp3 in the lineage so what's up with that??
There is no software tool that can reliably tell if a source is lossy. Please
don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #47  
Old 2009-11-21, 01:43 PM
rspencer's Avatar
rspencer rspencer is offline
TTD Hoarder
TTD Staff
178.57 GB/225.72 GB/1.26
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: the outer limits
Re: Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside

If anything, they're more useful for weeding out the good shows rather than the bad.

That is, if it says it's lossless, it very likely is. If it says it's lossy, then you'll need to look into it yourself manually (spec, freq) to determine if it truly is.
__________________
My main list .... My masters

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCMAN101 View Post
Sorry. I'm busy not partying at college.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcbullet View Post
I hate not being a real man.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #48  
Old 2009-11-21, 01:47 PM
jameskg's Avatar
jameskg jameskg is offline
audio moderator
TTD Staff
83.16 GB/882.03 GB/10.61
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Re: Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside

^^^
__________________
"There are some of these recordings where it is just a whirring, and you cannot hear the music. " - Jimmy Page, 2007 / JUL / 26
Firewall Help: your router | windows XP | more
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #49  
Old 2010-02-27, 06:24 PM
steelmusicuk steelmusicuk is offline
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Re: Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside

I have been reading this thread with interest! I have been trading boots for many, many years... Obviously longer than the existence of mp3 and flac etc etc.
I must admit that I am finding it hard to understand the significance of the whole lossy debate. I can understand to a degree why someone may want the best possible quality recording... But, generally speaking, I have found that the audio quality of the 100s of recordings that I have had the pleasure of listening to, have either been dependant on the quality of the recording at source, or by the overcopying encountered during the cassette tape period. When I have converted shows through different formats, the quality is darn near the same in every format.... ?
If you guys can't tell by just kickin' back and listening to a show whether it's an mp3 or flac or wav or whatever... What does it matter whether it may have at one point existed as an mp3?
OK. Flac may be the best option for duplicating professional studio recordings. But for normal live boots etc.... What's the issue? Please enlighten me... I genuinely am not looking to upset anyone... I truely would like someone to help me understand this whole debate. I must be missing something!! (PS I have good hearing...)
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #50  
Old 2010-02-28, 12:22 AM
rspencer's Avatar
rspencer rspencer is offline
TTD Hoarder
TTD Staff
178.57 GB/225.72 GB/1.26
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: the outer limits
Re: Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside

If you have good hearing, you should be able to hear some of the reasons. Listen to the cymbals in an mp3. You'll hear a "swishiness," due to the missing chunks of music.

Just one example, but that's an easy one.
__________________
My main list .... My masters

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCMAN101 View Post
Sorry. I'm busy not partying at college.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcbullet View Post
I hate not being a real man.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #51  
Old 2010-02-28, 12:37 AM
tay666 tay666 is offline
7.09 GB/10.78 GB/1.52
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Conneaut Oh USA
Re: Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside

Actually, a few years ago, I could have been the one making a post just like yours.
I couldn't understand the whole uproar.
I thought, "What's the big deal? They're only bootlegs".
Why should I care, when I can't even hear the difference?

Then I slowly became converted.
The first thing I realized, what that by taking the time to hunt down lossless version, I was also getting superior versions. Not just because they were lossless. But because in order to get one that was lossless, I was usually getting one that was a superior generation, if not actually sourced from the master. The ones circulating in lossy versions were usually high gen shows that possibly even went through multiple MP3 conversions.
Getting less generated versions yeilded much more enjoyable shows.
Less cuts, less problems, less issues that were introduced in later generations.

As I started paying more attention, and started weeding out the lossy shows. I could start to spot suspect shows just by listening to them. I could here some of the glitches from compression artifacts left in the recordings. I could notice the different 'flavor' of the show because of the stripped out frequencies.

So, now I am completely converted. I believe that lossless is the way to go.

Now, personally, I think they go a little overboard here with some of their rules. But it is their place, and their rules, and I follow them.
I can't fault them for trying to keep things as pure as possible.
__________________
My trade list http://tay666.comze.com/iron.htm
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #52  
Old 2010-02-28, 08:40 AM
LuvGlimmerTwins's Avatar
LuvGlimmerTwins LuvGlimmerTwins is offline
Rolling Stones Fanatic
534.07 GB/1.47 TB/2.82
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Re: Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside

I, too, did not 'get it', at first....
With time, however, one's ears become more astute at detection (this coming from an older individual who endured way too many loud shows, right in front of the stacks....)
Likewise, preserving every last byte of an original recording makes future technological advances capable of rendering 'better' versions than what we may have today (via careful, thoughtful, non-destructive remastering).
Who would have thought, during the days of Dolby noise reduction, that surround sound and hi def would be in the future?
Just my two centavos
LuvGlimmerTwins
__________________
Let's drink to the Salt of the Earth
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #53  
Old 2010-02-28, 10:44 AM
steelmusicuk steelmusicuk is offline
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Re: Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside

Thanks... Some great and valid points there! Especially about the preservation of the material. Are there any other formats on the horizon that adopt the lossless qualities of flac, but the disc space and of an mp3? Or, should we be seeing more (any) 'Flac' players on the market?
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #54  
Old 2010-02-28, 11:10 AM
AAR.oner's Avatar
AAR.oner AAR.oner is offline
ense et aratro
TTD Staff
1.11 TB/1.41 TB/1.27
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Appalachia
Re: Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelmusicuk View Post
I have been reading this thread with interest! I have been trading boots for many, many years... Obviously longer than the existence of mp3 and flac etc etc.
I must admit that I am finding it hard to understand the significance of the whole lossy debate. I can understand to a degree why someone may want the best possible quality recording... But, generally speaking, I have found that the audio quality of the 100s of recordings that I have had the pleasure of listening to, have either been dependant on the quality of the recording at source, or by the overcopying encountered during the cassette tape period. When I have converted shows through different formats, the quality is darn near the same in every format.... ?
If you guys can't tell by just kickin' back and listening to a show whether it's an mp3 or flac or wav or whatever... What does it matter whether it may have at one point existed as an mp3?
OK. Flac may be the best option for duplicating professional studio recordings. But for normal live boots etc.... What's the issue? Please enlighten me... I genuinely am not looking to upset anyone... I truely would like someone to help me understand this whole debate. I must be missing something!! (PS I have good hearing...)
lets say you've got a silver boot that you decide to mp3 and share with someone...they burn it to CD, then extract and re-mp3 to share with someone else...thats been compressed twice now, with significant amount of information being thrown out each time [lowering the quality]...same thing happens again, then again, next thing ya know, you've got this horrible sounding recording, because its been compressed time after time -- in concept, kinda like taking a cassette and dubbing it over and over

throwing out some of the information [i.e. freq spectrum] results in a poorer overall sound, fact...which imo is even more important to avoid when talking about an audience recording than a studio one


there's nothing wrong with compressing to mp3 for yer own personal use, thats up to you...introducing mp3 in the trading pool results in a bunch of shit to swim thru to find the good stuff -- so keep lossy compression outta trading pool
__________________
TTD's Gear Lust Forum -- info & reviews on taping gear
Basics of EQing

"A man is none the less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years."
- Lysander Spooner
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #55  
Old 2010-03-01, 03:37 PM
steelmusicuk steelmusicuk is offline
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Re: Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside

Hence the interest in checking the frequencies.... To spot those folks converting mp3 to flac! I do commend those that are active in keeping the quality as pure as possible. But i'd imagine that would not stop those converting mp3 to flac, as i suspect most would not check the frequencies. Question: Would anyone that spotted a conversion to flac from mp3 continue to trade it?
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #56  
Old 2010-03-02, 06:30 PM
tay666 tay666 is offline
7.09 GB/10.78 GB/1.52
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Conneaut Oh USA
Re: Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelmusicuk View Post
Hence the interest in checking the frequencies.... To spot those folks converting mp3 to flac! I do commend those that are active in keeping the quality as pure as possible. But i'd imagine that would not stop those converting mp3 to flac, as i suspect most would not check the frequencies. Question: Would anyone that spotted a conversion to flac from mp3 continue to trade it?
I don't trade the ones I have found in my own collection.
I have them noted on my list as MP3 and I won't trade them.
And I have almost managed to replace all of them. (I hang on to them until I get a replacement so I can still listen to them, and some don't have a lossless version in circulation yet)
The only exception to that for me, are shows that were originally recorded as MP3 or other lossy source. (there are still some people that record in that format)
Those get traded within a very small circle of Iron Maiden traders that want every known version of a show. We don't trade them to others, but we do share them amongst ourselves
__________________
My trade list http://tay666.comze.com/iron.htm
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #57  
Old 2010-03-02, 06:49 PM
ScUmFoX's Avatar
ScUmFoX ScUmFoX is offline
482.68 MB/748.73 MB/1.55
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Re: Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside

What if you get a show online, in a .zip, torrent, etc in a lossy format. Is there any way you can change it, without trading for a new one, so you can add it to your collection? Audio, specifically.

I've heard bad things about "re-encoding". Is that what I want to do, and why is it bad? Does it worsen quality?
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #58  
Old 2010-03-02, 07:58 PM
rspencer's Avatar
rspencer rspencer is offline
TTD Hoarder
TTD Staff
178.57 GB/225.72 GB/1.26
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: the outer limits
Re: Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside

It will just "bloat" it, and it's really kinda pointless. Converting mp3 to flac only increases the file size. There's no way to replace the music that's been removed.

So it's best to just leave it as mp3.
__________________
My main list .... My masters

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCMAN101 View Post
Sorry. I'm busy not partying at college.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcbullet View Post
I hate not being a real man.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #59  
Old 2010-03-03, 04:56 PM
tay666 tay666 is offline
7.09 GB/10.78 GB/1.52
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Conneaut Oh USA
Re: Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside

Exactly. Once it becomes lossy, there is no 'fixing' it.
Only thing to do is find a replacement.

As I mentioned, I keep them for my personal collection until I find that replacement.
But I won't spread them.
__________________
My trade list http://tay666.comze.com/iron.htm
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #60  
Old 2011-02-07, 09:42 AM
zootype zootype is offline
18.66 GB/27.39 GB/1.47
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Re: Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside

Re: Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by pissah
Hello! has anybody had trouble with Trader's Little Helper's tool for checking for lossy files?
I have taped a few things straight to WAV, then after a bit of tweaking and EQing I often get a "source cannot be specified" or even "looks like MP3"
I KNOW there was no mp3 in the lineage so what's up with that??


Quote:
Originally Posted by showtaper View Post
There is no software tool that can reliably tell if a source is lossy. Please
don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
So what exactly can this thread tell us about determining whether or not an upload would be acceptable here, re: lossy or lossless?
Not much, apparently.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
Reply

The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble > Lossy or Lossless?

Similar Threads
Thread Forum Replies Last Post
2 x Dat sources - jadg2 Lossy or Lossless? 5 2007-01-29 06:28 AM
Devendra Banhart - Live @ KCRW; Lossy Source? (Freq. screencap inside) - rabble Lossy or Lossless? 37 2005-06-21 06:55 AM
Other Sources - AaronS Technobabble 2 2005-04-27 10:54 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forums


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:56 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - , TheTradersDen.org - All Rights Reserved - Hosted at QuickPacket
no new posts