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  #16  
Old 2007-06-30, 10:08 PM
Tubular
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

Some additional thoughts on the Dolby Digital and DTS tracks on DVD-Audio/Video discs:

http://www.spannerworks.net/reference/10_1a.asp

"Both Dolby Digital and DTS are capable of 24-bit resolution, but currently nominally operate at 18-bit resolution, allowing a dynamic range of approximately 108dB. Theoretically, 24-bit resolution allows dynamic range of 144dB which, though higher, would be indistinguishable from the lower 108dB figure given the current limitations of playback hardware. For all practical purposes, both Dolby Digital and DTS Digital Surround operate at near, or above, 18-bit resolution and dynamic range (108dB)."

So in addition to being lossy, DTS and Dolby Digital (DTS less lossy than Dolby Digital) are only about 18bit/48kHz. Most DVD-Audio discs are 24bit/48kHz or 24bit/96kHz, and lossless. Dynamic range aside, you'll hear a world of difference between 18bit and 24bit, because the waveforms are more accurately described at higher bit depths.

http://www.dtsonline.com/consumer/te...t-a-glance.php

The DTS 96/24 codec (lossy) is extremely rare and only found on a few receivers and players. It differs from the much more common regular DTS codec described above. You need a special receiver or player that decodes DTS 96/24. It is backwards compatible with regular DTS, but it will be downsampled to 24bit/48kHz. I haven't seen any discs (audio or video) that utilize this codec. Doesn't mean they don't exist, though.

The new codec, DTS HD Master Lossless (24/96 x 5.1 or 7.1? channels) is used on some HD-DVDs and Blu-Rays.
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  #17  
Old 2007-06-30, 11:18 PM
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

yeah.. but the video industry needed that to fit the 5.1 streams due to DVD space limitation of the time.

Im kinda excited for 96/24 DVD-A. but Im not looking forward to the $$$ again for the 4th version of the White Album I guess its a good thing..an so the wheel rolls on.

-what are you playing your DVD-A on.. cause I know that laptop wont do it.
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  #18  
Old 2007-07-01, 11:47 AM
Tubular
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

My DVD-A/V player is a Denon DVM-2815. I got it here: http://www.ecost.com/ecost/search/se...5&submit1=find a couple years ago for like $200 I think. Now it is $170. It is great, it plays DVD+R and DVD-R, Faroudja progressive scan, 5-disc changer, Burr Brown 24/192 DAC, built in Dolby Digital and DTS decoding, plays mp3s and wma8, coaxial and optical output. It doesn't have any of the new upconverting video equipment that newer DVD players have, but I don't have an HDTV, so it doesn't matter to me. It won't play region free PAL discs though. Not sure if that method to trick a PAL disc to play on an NTSC player works on it.

To buy a new Denon DVD-A/V/SACD player that plays DVD+R as well as DVD-R you have to spend a little more, like $300:
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/search/se...S&submit1=find
It's got all that upconverting gear and HDMI. It's got HDCD decoding too (mine doesn't).

When I get an HDTV in a few years, I'm going to get a Blu-Ray/DVD-A/DVD-V player with the best HDMI output standard that is capable of outputting the high resolution lossless Dolby and DTS formats. Also the player should have internal decoding of the high rez lossless Dolby and DTS formats, so you can use the 5.1 analog RCA outputs. This way I'll be future proof and I won't have to buy a new receiver right away. I don't think any of the current Blu-Ray players will do this.

The public didn't embrace DVD-A and SACD, but they will surely embrace Blu-Ray. So they're gettin' high resolution lossless digital audio whether they know it or not.
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  #19  
Old 2007-07-01, 06:09 PM
Tubular
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

This is a good site to check out all the new Denons:

http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/...ndChangers.asp

If cost is of little concern there is the DVD-5910CI. Only $3800 MSRP But I'm sure there are Audiophile players that cost 20 or 30 grand.
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  #20  
Old 2007-07-02, 06:59 PM
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

Hey Tubular, got another question. I converted my 24-bit show to 16-bit and then corrected the sector boundary errors in TLH. Then I decoded them to wav files using Flac frontend. Then I burned the cd's. However, I'm still getting some very minute pops between tracks like I have sector boundary errors. I'm not getting them on all of the tracks, but quite a few. The original 24-bit flac files had no sector boundary errors. After I converted them from 24-bit to 16-bit in Audacity, they all had sector boundary errors so I ran all the tracks through TLH and all of them got fixed (supposedly). The show still sounds pretty good and it's better than the original 16-bit someone else put up but I'm a perfectionist and want the pops gone.

By the way, when you get your HD set, I highly recommend the Sony SXRD. I got the 60" rear projection last year and I love it. I wonder why I waited that long to get one.
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  #21  
Old 2007-07-02, 09:32 PM
Tubular
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

Did you run a len check with shntool on the files to see if they were SBE free? If you fixed the SBEs with TLH then I'm not sure what is causing the pops. If the pops are only occuring at the transition from one track to another then that sounds like SBEs. Are you sure there are no pops on the 24 bit files? Might be mic overload or something else that happened during the recording of the show.
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  #22  
Old 2007-07-02, 11:09 PM
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

Yes, I ran the len check with TLH. I did it after I converted the 24-bit to 16-bit and it had sector boundary errors. I fixed them with TLH and was error free. Then when I burned the cd's they came out with pops in between the tracks on some of the tracks. Someone who had uploaded the 16 bit version of the show had numerous pops within the songs so I decided to download the original 24-bit version to see if it was in the original recording. It wasn't so I converted to the 16-bit. Mine are only occuring between tracks which sounds like SBE's, but the len check says everything is fine. That is what has me confused.

I haven't burned the show to DVD from the 24-bit so I guess they could be on there too. The len check on the 24-bit version was error free.
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  #23  
Old 2007-07-03, 12:04 AM
Tubular
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

I would test the files again after they are fixed by TLH and make sure there are no "b's" in the left hand column of the len check. What burning program are you using? Maybe you burned a CD at too great a speed? You could try burning at a lower speed, like 8X. Also make sure the program isn't addding 2 second gaps between tracks. EAC is a good free burning/extracting program (make sure to uncheck the "add 2 second gaps on append" in layout): www.exactaudiocopy.de
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  #24  
Old 2007-07-03, 12:00 PM
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

I tested them after I converted them and then ran them through TLH and fixed the SBE's with a len check and it said there were no errors. I use Roxio Easy Media Creator V9 and have never had a problem before. I burned at a high rate and a low rate and get the same problems. I downloaded EAC and even burned the first disc and I'm still getting the same problems. There seems to be a glitch in the transition of the tracks. Once the track is changed from one to the other there seems to be a millisecond of silence where the track would normally skip. The 2 second gaps were removed on both Roxio and EAC.

I'm beginning to wonder if the problem was with how Audacity converted the 24-bit to 16-bit. I've never had a problem with an original 16-bit recording before. I've burned many a show with Roxio and never had the errors I'm getting with this one which leads me to believe that the conversion didn't work as I thought. It converted the tracks, but there are errors that seem inherent in the tracks themselves.
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  #25  
Old 2007-07-03, 10:20 PM
Tubular
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

You could try burning a DVD-A disc of the show with DVD-Audiofile and see if there are gaps on the original 24 bit files. DVD-Audiofile doesn't add gaps between tracks. Also you could look at the files with CD-Wav editor (free). You can look at the wavs and see if there is any silence at the beginning or end of a file.

I've never used Audacity for converting from 24 > 16 bit. I have only used Wavelab, and I've never burned the files to audio CD. It could be you had some settings wrong in Audacity? Also you could decode the 16 bit files to wav and see if there are any other problems with the len check, like non-canonical header errors. These will show up in the middle column of the len check as an "h"

Just thought of this: you said you used a FLAC plugin for Audacity to do the conversion from 24 > 16. That plugin could be the problem right there. I would decode the original 24 bit FLACs to wav, then load the wavs into Audacity, then dither and convert to 16 bit wav. Then load the wavs into Trader's Little Helper to fix any errors. Finally, burn to audio CD. Hope that helps.
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  #26  
Old 2007-07-03, 11:35 PM
Tubular
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

So you don't have to waste another CD: use shntool join mode to merge the 16 bit wavs together into one big wav. Then listen to the wav with Windows Media Player or Winamp, or Foobar2000, and listen for any gaps between songs. Or look for gaps with CD-Wav editor.
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  #27  
Old 2007-07-04, 01:53 AM
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

O.K. here is what I did. I converted the 24-bit flac files to wav files and then ran a len check. Everything was o.k. No errors. Then I took each 24-bit wav file and converted them to a 16-bit, 44 kHz sample rate wav file in Audacity. I then ran another len check and everything was o.k with no errors. However, when I went to listen to each wav file there now is a 2-3 second gap at the end of each wav file. I don't know enough about Audacity to know if there is a setting that I should've ticked off or on so I wouldn't get the 2-3 seconds of silence at the end of each wav file. I tried burning with EAC and the gaps are still there at the end of each song (like I figured since what you hear on a wav file is what you'll get. I guess I was hoping EAC would do something for me.). I've started a nice collection of cd coasters. Thankfully, they're cheap.

I simply imported each file and then set the project rate at 44. I then exported the file as a 16-bit wav file. Nothing more than that. I'm sure there is something else that needs to be done but I'm an Audacity neophyte.

I checked the preferences to see if there was any setting and I don't see one. The default under latency for audio to buffer is 100 milliseconds. Latency correction is set at 0 seconds. There's a heading called "Quality" under preferences and there's a conversion section. Those settings are set at "Real Time Sample Rate Converter = Fast Sinc Interpolation" and the Dither is set to "None". The "High Quality Sample Rate Converter = High Quality Sinc Interpolation" and the Dither is set to "Shaped". Whatever the hell that means

I'm sure it's something I'm not doing (or should be doing) in Audacity. I just wish I knew WTF it was!
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  #28  
Old 2007-07-04, 02:47 AM
Tubular
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

Yeah, you want to use the high quality sample rate conversion and also use dithering. Dither adds a bit of low level noise (inaudible, I think) and makes converting from 24 > 16 more accurate.

You should send a private message to Five and AAR.oner (both moderators, you can find their names at the bottom right hand corner of the main technobabble page, then click on them and send a PM). They have used Audacity extensively and should be able to help you out. Then post back here with the solution.
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  #29  
Old 2007-07-04, 11:00 AM
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

Just a quick question, when you look at the 44.1/16 wave in Audacity do you see 2 seconds of silence at the end of each file, or does the waveform look normal to the very end?
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  #30  
Old 2007-07-04, 12:17 PM
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

I was hoping I could figure it out or someone could lead me in the right direction on here before I had to PM someone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diggrd
Just a quick question, when you look at the 44.1/16 wave in Audacity do you see 2 seconds of silence at the end of each file, or does the waveform look normal to the very end?
I imported the files and you can see the silence at the end of each wav. Can I (easily) edit that out and fix the SBE's once I do that?
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