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Lossy or Lossless?
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  #61  
Old 2008-06-12, 03:17 PM
scratchie scratchie is offline
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Re: MP3

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Originally Posted by AAR.oner View Post
that is the saddest part
No, that's the best part, because it gives people the freedom to listen to music in the format that gives them the most pleasure. Get it?
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  #62  
Old 2008-06-12, 03:19 PM
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Re: MP3

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Originally Posted by scratchie View Post
Secondly, most people are going to prefer to take a 1/10 reduction in size accompanied by a minor (inaudible to most) decrease in sound quality. I don't know why this comes as a surprise to anyone.
These people deserve to have their mp3s and crappy hearing. If you can't tell the difference in mp3 and wav you need to see a doctor. inaudible to most is far from fact. as is you statement that most people would take garbage over a steak if they were both free.

It's easy to tell what has mp3 in lineage it is just time consuming to check all the files on a public tracker. I disagree that proliferation of mp3 files will have no impact on public lossless trackers for this reason. There are too many people who for whatever reason (uneducated, belief that mp3 is an inaudible difference, etc.) will try to pass one by.
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  #63  
Old 2008-06-12, 03:23 PM
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Re: MP3

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Originally Posted by scratchie View Post
No, that's the best part, because it gives people the freedom to listen to music in the format that gives them the most pleasure. Get it?
if you say so...i for one feel quite blessed to be able to listen critically [which most could do if they wanted], noticing the slight nuances of a recording, thereby getting a fuller picture of the song/performance/etc

but i guess some prefer paint-by-numbers...that's cool, bygones
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  #64  
Old 2008-06-12, 03:30 PM
roomful
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Re: MP3

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Originally Posted by scratchie View Post
Sure, but how often does that really happen? Most of the time, when something enters the "compressed realm", it continues to circulate in that format.
I agree with this, it probably doesn't happen too often once it's in compressed format (for a lot of bands, there are databases with checksums to prove it), but a lot of stuff (esp. rare) is sourced from audio CD-R(x) trades and mp3 has had a significant effect in that area.
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  #65  
Old 2008-06-12, 03:38 PM
roomful
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Re: MP3

Quote:
Originally Posted by scratchie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AAR.oner View Post
that is the saddest part
No, that's the best part, because it gives people the freedom to listen to music in the format that gives them the most pleasure. Get it?
It's good to have options, but if you never hear the music on a pair of halfway decent speakers or headphones, you won't know what you're missing. You won't be able to hear the difference as easily, or at all, between a beautifully mastered lossless show and one that has been compressed to mp3 and compressed so it has little to no dynamic range, but is always loud as fuck (and may clip ).
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  #66  
Old 2008-06-12, 04:03 PM
roomful
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Re: MP3

^^^ actually the recording mastered loudly with little dynamic range may sound better than a properly mastered recording on a shitty system that can't reveal all the details that well, and can't be turned up very loud.
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  #67  
Old 2008-06-12, 06:33 PM
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paddington paddington is offline
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Re: MP3

Quote:
Originally Posted by scratchie View Post
No, that's the best part, because it gives people the freedom to listen to music in the format that gives them the most pleasure. Get it?

no it, confines the recipients to only be able to listen to a lossy format - whereas if the audio was kept in lossless FLAC for distribution, the recipient has a choice. Play or burn a disc in FLAC or convert to MP3 - or both.

I don't know how you can make any argument that receiving audio in MP3 gives the listener more 'freedom'?
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  #68  
Old 2008-06-12, 06:55 PM
scratchie scratchie is offline
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Re: MP3

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Originally Posted by jameskg View Post
I don't know how you can make any argument that receiving audio in MP3 gives the listener more 'freedom'?
It gives them the freedom to download a show in 10 minutes, copy it to their portable player and go, where the alternative would be an hour-and-a-half download followed by some sort of file conversion requiring extra software.
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  #69  
Old 2008-06-12, 06:58 PM
scratchie scratchie is offline
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Re: MP3

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Originally Posted by saltman View Post
If you can't tell the difference in mp3 and wav you need to see a doctor.
The simple fact is that Apple and their competitors sell millions of mp3 players every year. Objective reality indicates that there are millions, if not hundreds of millions of people who either cannot tell the difference or don't care because they prefer the convenience. So unless you're shilling for a hearing aid manufacturer, you put your high horse back in the stable.
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  #70  
Old 2008-06-12, 07:24 PM
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Re: MP3

You have to remember, we are a site geared towards hard core collectors. There are people out there who don't trade or even know that sites like this even exist, much less that there are differences. These are the same people who are still paying $45 at the record store for that 'insert band' imported cd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scratchie
But to worry about what happens to it once it leaves your hands is foolish and unnecessary. The overlap between quality-obsessive traders and casual mp3 users is so small as to be virtually irrelevant.
+1
Quote:
Originally Posted by saltman
These people deserve to have their mp3s and crappy hearing. If you can't tell the difference in mp3 and wav you need to see a doctor.
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  #71  
Old 2008-06-12, 07:40 PM
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Re: MP3

Quote:
Originally Posted by scratchie View Post
It gives them the freedom to download a show in 10 minutes, copy it to their portable player and go, where the alternative would be an hour-and-a-half download followed by some sort of file conversion requiring extra software.
you lopped off the part of the post that makes the point.

Distribute in FLAC - then do whatever the hell you want with it - but spreading in MP3 give the end-user no choice at all. And it removes the choice (or freedom, whatever) from everyone down the line he may give it to.
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  #72  
Old 2008-06-12, 08:45 PM
roomful
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Re: MP3

I don't think scratchie wants mp3 at TTD or DIME or any site that is currently lossless only. I think he's saying that it isn't bad if the shows that are upped here are spread in mp3 elsewhere, like rapidshare. It can't be stopped, some ppl want the mp3s for fast downloads, less space, and can't hear a difference, some can't use BT (college, etc.), and the risk that they will be converted back to FLAC is small. Basically, the 'mp3 for personal use only' suggestion gets broken all the time and is only relevant to traders of lossless files on lossless sites who know not to go FLAC > mp3 > FLAC unless they are a total n00b.
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  #73  
Old 2008-06-12, 08:50 PM
scratchie scratchie is offline
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Re: MP3

Quote:
Originally Posted by roomful View Post
I don't think scratchie wants mp3 at TTD or DIME or any site that is currently lossless only. I think he's saying that it isn't bad if the shows that are upped here are spread in mp3 elsewhere, like rapidshare. It can't be stopped, some ppl want the mp3s for fast downloads, less space, and can't hear a difference, some can't use BT (college, etc.), and the risk that they will be converted back to FLAC is small. Basically, the 'mp3 for personal use only' suggestion gets broken all the time and is only relevant to traders of lossless files on lossless sites who know not to go FLAC > mp3 > FLAC unless they are a total n00b.
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  #74  
Old 2008-06-13, 08:39 AM
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AAR.oner AAR.oner is offline
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Re: MP3

i find it funny how "downloading" and "bittorrent" and "file size" keeps coming up ...guess some folks don't remember collecting by mail trading...you know, before the intardnet

truth be told, i could care less about the ipod wankers out there and the mp3 addicts...they have nothing to do with me or the site i help run...now i want everyone read read the following very carefully, because we have to re-iterate on a regular basis:

this site was not started to be a place for the casual listener or obsessed fan...it was & continues to be designed for the serious collectors & audiophiles out there, & the site's standards continue to morph based on current technology improvements


now don't get me wrong, we are more than happy that people come to the site even if they don't fall into the collector/audiophile category...many of our users are casual listeners or just fans looking for a show...we are glad you are here! but our "rules" and beliefs regarding the taping and collecting of shows will never degrade from the lofty standards we seek to keep in place...we want TTD to be at forefront of the sites out there, not in the middle

i understand what yer sayin scratchie, and as we all agree, there ain't mucgh you can do...some of us put "don't encode to lossy except for personal use" in hopes that people might actually respect our requests...ya see, i'm the one lugging $4000 working-class dollars worth of gear to shows so that everyone else can enjoy a recording...least folks could do is respect my requests...i'm not dumb enough to believe all or even most of em will, but if that little request in the info text stops a handful from doing so, and then they starting thing & researching the "why" behind the request, then i've accomplished what i want
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  #75  
Old 2008-06-13, 10:42 AM
scratchie scratchie is offline
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Re: MP3

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAR.oner View Post
i find it funny how "downloading" and "bittorrent" and "file size" keeps coming up ...guess some folks don't remember collecting by mail trading...you know, before the intardnet
Are you kidding? I remember it very well and I still have the boxes (and boxes and boxes) of cassettes to show for it. That's why I have to laugh when I hear people saying that mp3s are going to "ruin the trading pool" or some such. The "trading pool" is so much richer and more varied -- by at least a factor of 10, if not 100 -- than at any time in the last 20 years, mp3 proliferation notwithstanding.

Quote:
this site was not started to be a place for the casual listener or obsessed fan...it was & continues to be designed for the serious collectors & audiophiles out there, & the site's standards continue to morph based on current technology improvements


now don't get me wrong, we are more than happy that people come to the site even if they don't fall into the collector/audiophile category...many of our users are casual listeners or just fans looking for a show...we are glad you are here! but our "rules" and beliefs regarding the taping and collecting of shows will never degrade from the lofty standards we seek to keep in place...we want TTD to be at forefront of the sites out there, not in the middle
I'm 100% in favor of this. I'm glad TTD is here and I'm glad TTD has the rules it does, and there are cases where I've proposed even stricter regulations, only to be ridiculed and shouted down by a mod who shall remain nameless.

But, none of that changes the fact that once a recording is "out there", it's out there, and there's not much you can do (any more than the original performers have control over what we do with their music).

I appreciate your reasons for writing "Please do not convert to mp3 except for personal use", but I'm glad to see that you appreciate the actual likelihood of that request being followed in all cases (pretty slim). And when I see some crap-tacular audience tape over at DIME with a notice that says "DO NOT CONVERT TO MP3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", I'm still going to laugh my fool head off.

Quote:
i understand what yer sayin scratchie, and as we all agree, there ain't mucgh you can do...some of us put "don't encode to lossy except for personal use" in hopes that people might actually respect our requests...ya see, i'm the one lugging $4000 working-class dollars worth of gear to shows so that everyone else can enjoy a recording...least folks could do is respect my requests...
OK, but you know what? To take this thread all the way back to the very first post, this whole site -- and the whole hobby of trading live recordings -- is, in essence, based on disregarding the requests of musicians (and their representatives). Sure there are some artists who encourage taping, but they're still in the minority, and even on a site like this one, I'd be willing to bet that the majority of torrents available were recorded at a concert where taping was forbidden (or recorded off of a TV broadcast where "Unauthorized duplication" was forbidden), etc.

The Grateful Dead were the most notoriously bootleg-friendly band in the history of rock-music, but even they prohibited videotaping at their concerts. Yet, since upgrading to FIOS a couple of months ago, I've been downloading Grateful Dead videos like they've been going out of style.

I just think it's important to remember that this whole bootleg culture is based around the notion that the fan's desire to hear the music is more important than the artist's desire to keep control over their music. Just something to consider the next time you start to get upset about what someone else does with your recording.
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