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Lossy or Lossless? Please use this forum to post spectral and frequency analysis posts about shows you have your doubts about.

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  #46  
Old 2007-05-11, 08:02 AM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbornemann
In conclusion, MP3s have a bad stigma, but calling all MP3s bad is outright audio bigotry. As audio historians, we'll deprive future generations by placing draconian rules on the Master or Best Source.
how high were you when you wrote this ?

( *if you truly are an audio historian for the National Archives, please accept my apology in advance )
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  #47  
Old 2007-05-11, 09:15 AM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

^^ok that didnt add to the discussion..

the only reason mp3 exists is because 10yrs ago..we needed a way to stream audio via the Internet to computers & for people working with MIDI. MIDI needed small audio files to fit the small hard drives of the time (100MB - 400MB drives). The internet was at 14,400 bit/s.

thats it. The computer industry needed a reasonable compromise for audio. it was the best solution at the time (1995).


take Aaroners' (and others) advice - if you're somewhat serious about recording music today - get the right equipment.

Recording to mp3 makes no sense. Dont use entry-level 10yr old technology to record a show. get a nice portable tape deck or go high end digital.
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  #48  
Old 2007-05-11, 09:37 AM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAR.oner
correct, we wouldn't allow the mp3 source show, even if SOME people considered it to sound better...and we don't allow webcast captures either

i think people keep missing our [TTD Staff] point...we're not saying all mp3 sourced shows are shite and you shouldn't collect them...nor are we saying people shouldn't tape shows if all they have is a mp3 recorder...but when TTD first started, it was decided to only deal with lossless recordings, strictly lossless...exceptions were made for MD(M) recordings, but you have to "find the line" and stick with it...

also, you gotta understand the amount of work that goes into moderating a site like TTD...there's about 15 mods [some of which can only pop in occasionally due to "real life" stuff] for over 70,000 members...right now there are close to 2,500 torrents alone, not to mention all the other shows seeded via vines/loops/snail mail trdaes/etc...its difficult enough to keep it all straight as is, but if we allow certain mp3 recordings, but not others, then you have a major nightmare on yer hands...other headaches that would arise would be the numerous people lying about their mp3 set being the only recording, and the research that would have to go into it to verify...there would have to be bitrate standards that all the people complaining about no-mp3s now would complain that 320kbps requirement is too high...and then and then and then.................you get the point

if you have a mp3 master recording by all means share it, just do so at one of the 1000s of other mp3-friendly sites...we're not trying to be snobs, we just found our line and are sticking with it
Now that's an excellent rebuttal, a lot better than "MP3s suck!". Hats off to the staff at TTD, keep up the great work.
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  #49  
Old 2007-05-11, 10:47 AM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Great explanations, thanks. Couple more questions:

analog FM radio (lossy, right?) > lossless digital recorder, MD or cassette is allowed

is digital XM (lossy) or Sirius satellite radio (lossy) > lossless digital recorder, MD or cassette allowed?

is the upcoming terrestrial digital HD FM (lossy) or HD AM (lossy) > lossless digital recorder, MD, or cassette allowed?

I really don't see much difference between a lossy webcast and a lossy digital radio broadcast, except maybe higher bitrates with the radio broadcast.

Finally, when are we going to get a lossless video codec? Are any of the video codecs used for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray lossless? From what I've read, MPEG2 is lossy and according to wikipedia, miniDV is lossy: "DV uses DCT intraframe compression at a fixed bitrate of 25 megabits per second (25.146 Mbit/s)...DCT compression is lossy, and sometimes suffers from artifacting around small or complex objects such as text." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiniDV
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  #50  
Old 2007-05-11, 04:22 PM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

i'm gonna leave the FM issues to someone else who's more familiar, because all i know about XM/Sirius is that it sounds like shite

re: MPEG2--yes it is "lossy", since it utilizes compression...miniDV is compressed, as is HD...but you can't really compare video compression to audio compression, it's a whole different animal...in layman's terms, there is no such thing as lossless video, and i don't see it happening anytime soon--maybe 50 yrs down the road, but even then i doubt due to other issues we'll skip for now...basically, the amount of data raw video would take up would be ridiculous and the "cons" would far outway the "pros"...

i will note--when it comes to MPEG2 compression, i do believe the program used makes a difference...some perform far better than others in terms of artifacts, video noise, etc...and it goes without saying, the bitrate plays a key role as well...video compression is definitely a "you get what you pay for" thing
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  #51  
Old 2007-05-11, 07:13 PM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
Finally, when are we going to get a lossless video codec? Are any of the video codecs used for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray lossless? ]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...iption=blu+ray
Burner: $500-$3000
Blanks: $13-$40 (per disc)
Finally, how many people have a HD w/ 25 gigs of free space (though externals are getting cheap)
How do u propose torrenting a 25 gig set, much less a 50 gig show (with the current average upload capabilities of 30-60kbs for most people)?
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  #52  
Old 2007-05-11, 09:26 PM
Tubular
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

I'm looking forward to high definition video torrents. Maybe in 3-5 years when prices on HD-DVD or Blu-Ray discs and burners come down, more people get fiber-optic internet, and hard disk storage becomes cheaper it will be feasible. It will really benefit shows captured from HD-TV, transferred from film, shows taped with new consumer HD-video cameras, or shows taped on miniDV (480p, plus that 25 Mbps could be fully utilized). I don't know how much better a show recorded on VHS, beta, or Hi-8 would look when transferred at higher bitrates to high definition as opposed to DVD. I guess I'm fine with a lossy video codec as long as it looks amazing; all digital is lossy (whether uncompressed or losslessly compressed) compared to analog (film or analog tape). Audio codecs like DTS HD master lossless (lossless compression, 24bit/96kHz x 5.1 ch) for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are a big step up too.
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  #53  
Old 2007-05-11, 11:57 PM
Tubular
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Phish 12-31-1999 25 gigs, 1166 completes
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...ad.php?t=19876

If bandwidth usage were so restricted and quick downloads were so important, we would all be listening to mp3's and watching VCD's or Xvid mpeg4's.
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  #54  
Old 2007-05-12, 12:56 AM
Tubular
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

This would solve a lot of storage problems: 50 Terrabyte DVD's (50,000 gigs)
http://in.tech.yahoo.com/060708/139/65pz8.html

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  #55  
Old 2007-05-12, 01:34 AM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
Phish 12-31-1999 25 gigs, 1166 completes
Seeded: 03-28-06, 07:41 PM
It's only been up for a year+ ...and it was initially seeded by 4-6 people simultaneously, several of which had T-line connections...in addition to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmoe75
.......
18.125.0.xxx(49000) 12:49:20 25.65 GB dL 245.79 GB UL 9.58 100.00% 8.05 MB/s
helping out after initially completing.

Unless you know a mass of people who have access to upload at 8 Mbs.....good day
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  #56  
Old 2007-05-12, 01:56 AM
Tubular
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

I guess multiple initial seeders (cable ,dsl, fios, t1, t3, whatever) and lots of snail mail trades are the answer. High Definition's quality is worth the space, discs, and bandwidth in my opinion, especially something transferred from 35mm or 70mm film > 1080p or an HDTV broadcast captured at 1080p or 1080i, or an audience shot high def camera at 1080i (tripod, DAUD synch of course). If my ISP limited me to only a couple high def concert video downloads/uploads a month, it would still be worth it. So what if it takes weeks to download and then upload the same amount, it's high def!
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  #57  
Old 2007-05-12, 06:48 AM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by schmoe75
How do u propose torrenting a 25 gig set, much less a 50 gig show (with the current average upload capabilities of 30-60kbs for most people)?
yeah...can you picture it chap.

Excellent quality
Size 32 Gb
NTSC
Running time: 4 minutes(approx)



K_K
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  #58  
Old 2007-05-12, 03:03 PM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
Correct me if I am wrong, but mp3's and MiniDisc's ATRAC don't just cut off the high frequencies. That is just the telltale sign in a SA/FA. They also get rid of information all throughout the spectrum by throwing out info deemed less important, or less noticeable. So the master cassette that cuts off at 15kHz and the mp3 that cuts off at 15kHz are very different. The cassette contains more info, not to mention that it is analog. Analog recordings contain more info than digital recordings, though the size and quality of the analog tape used makes a big difference.
this is a key point

here was my last tape with MD (atrac) compared to my first tape with Hi-MD (wav):
http://rapidshare.com/files/30942071...rade.flac.html

it was a different room but everything else was exactly the the same, the mics and everything. The atrac deck was pricy in its day (around $400) but these days you can get a wav recorder for less than that, as low as $55 used! In the $400 price range you could just about afford an m-audio microtrack2496 which is a rolls royce next to the pinto that is oldschool atrac md. Atrac MD is so fucking shit you have to record it thru your soundcard to get a digital copy of the recording you made!

with regard to "only available source" there is some merit to the concept and somebody should keep tabs on cell phone vids, md, mp3 etc recordings but its just too much for us to handle and not at all the correct direction for TTD.

What do you guys think about a cutoff date for old ATRAC MD recordings, where after that date anything recorded ATRAC is no longer allowed?
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  #59  
Old 2007-05-12, 03:14 PM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
Great explanations, thanks. Couple more questions:

analog FM radio (lossy, right?) > lossless digital recorder, MD or cassette is allowed
analog FM radio > MD = not allowed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
is digital XM (lossy) or Sirius satellite radio (lossy) > lossless digital recorder, MD or cassette allowed?
no. too crap.

however, it is worth mentioning that are no longer very careful about checking the lossy/lossless broadcast quality of the station so long as it is captured from the open-air not streaming internet shite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
is the upcoming terrestrial digital HD FM (lossy) or HD AM (lossy) > lossless digital recorder, MD, or cassette allowed?
is that an open-air broadcast? (recording to MD not allowed either way)

it sounds strange, but that is how we've been doing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
I really don't see much difference between a lossy webcast and a lossy digital radio broadcast, except maybe higher bitrates with the radio broadcast.
yes, much higher bitrates. some shows will be webcast simultaneously with a traditional radio broadcast, and although *most* modern broadcasts are lossy they are a hundred times better than a webcast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
Finally, when are we going to get a lossless video codec?
still waiting... there is lossless video, but not lossless audio to go with it, you're stuck with wav for the time being. I read some guy was working on it but its probably 3+ years away from being ready.
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  #60  
Old 2007-05-12, 03:15 PM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
What do you guys think about a cutoff date for old ATRAC MD recordings, where after that date anything recorded ATRAC is no longer allowed?
i think it should be a moratorium going forward... give everyone who still tapes in md (myself included) time to upgrade their decks; i know that there are at least a few others on this board who tape in md. maybe this would even need its own topic. i know there are plenty of cheap solutions, but i spent enough on my md, i want to do the same on the digital i am going to buy...

perhaps july '07, or 01/01/08?

also, what is etree's current policy (just curious)?
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