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  #16  
Old 2005-01-28, 04:51 AM
readicculus readicculus is offline
196.88 GB/108.59 GB/0.55
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: Share ratio per user

Bram Cohen designed BT for (among other things) helping offset BW costs (corps, individuals, orgs).

Grabbing a torrent of a linux distro or something from the distro's homepage is quite a bit different than a community like we have here. The more that we all share the more stuff the seeders will put out there, the more we share the less we have to worry about reseeds, or a torrent dying on us mid-download. It's in our own interest to share as much as we possibly can. We aren't concerned with simply allowing a big swarm to grab a seed and then for the last 7 people to bail because most everyone's got it or there aren't any leeches. We only have one real distribution method, and it's best to keep it as close to 1:1 as we can, we want people to grab the stuff, so it's best to give back as much as you get, simply to keep the flow of torrents strong enough for ourselves to grab whatever we need.

If you do go 1:1 (or as close as humanly possible) on everything then torrents will still be alive for those that show up for them late, no need to reseed. Obviously torrents do not "need" to stay open forever, but if everyone actually tried to get to 1:1 they would live quite a bit longer, which is a good thing. Instead the last few people on a torrent just decide to bail, often with people just being the last leech and not sharing anything. If they actually get to 1:1 then someone can easily grab a seed whenever they stumble across the show and the speeds will be better for everyone... just hopping off after only sharing about half of what you downloaded really negatively impacts the spread of the seed.

And if you endorse the view that ">.70" is good enough", then people will eventually just start dropping off before .70, 1:1 makes sense, logically and as a guideline for people so they don't think dropping off whenever they've shared "a good amount" is fine.

And it's not like you have to stop seeding something just because you are starting up another download, just use a decent client like Azureus, or Bit Tornado and change the upload rates on your torrents. If you're worried about not uploading enough on the new download then just wait a few hours for it to get kicking or turn your other seeds down to 3 or something and just leave them be.

I really don't see why it's necessary to ever shut down before you get very close to 1:1, unless you've got to burn and make space, or no leeches show up for like a week I think leaving open your seeds till you're pretty much at 1:1 is an obligation.
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Last edited by readicculus; 2005-01-28 at 04:57 AM.
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  #17  
Old 2005-01-28, 07:25 AM
wazoo2u wazoo2u is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: Share ratio per user

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.
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  #18  
Old 2005-01-28, 08:28 AM
Five's Avatar
Five Five is offline
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186.65 GB/588.32 GB/3.15
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Canada
Re: Share ratio per user

hey wazoo...

how about if you seed a show and tell everybody to bail when they hit .7

it won't last very long, will it?
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  #19  
Old 2005-01-28, 12:36 PM
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morningdew76 morningdew76 is offline
912.28 GB/2.94 TB/3.30
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Re: Share ratio per user

outpostnorth, i disagree with you on this one.

i usually have between 3 and 5 torrents open at once, and i never, and i mean NEVER close a torrent before it gets to 1:1. if you don't believe that, look up my share ratio on EDJ and EZT.. same username as on here. [1.87 and 1.55 respectively]

BitComet gives me the stats i need to enforce that, as well as the controls to set the upload bandwidth per torrent.

i suppose it all comes down to what's more efficient... should i be pumping out 13k to 4 torrents or 50k to 1? if i get to 1:1 or past 1:1 on the torrents, i don't think it matters either way
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  #20  
Old 2005-01-28, 03:42 PM
wazoo2u wazoo2u is offline
923.61 MB/96.22 MB/0.10
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: Share ratio per user

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
hey wazoo...

how about if you seed a show and tell everybody to bail when they hit .7

it won't last very long, will it?
That's NOT what I'm saying at all. I'm advocating maintaining an AVERAGE ratio of >70 is more than sufficient in sustaining short to mid term swarms.

If you paint things in black and white numbers, you can make any kind of a case that you like. The reality is tha the community supports torrents as a collective, so the averages are imprtant.

I'll continue to seed torrents to all different degrees of share. Sometimes I might carry a torrent to 250%, other times I might only share 30%. It all works out in the end, because the share ratio is an average.

EZT requires it's users to sustain a 25% share. (not that you're saying it), but I hardly think I'm being liberal in my judgement.

Last edited by wazoo2u; 2005-01-28 at 03:51 PM.
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  #21  
Old 2005-04-02, 05:16 PM
BassmanRon
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Icon4 Re: Share ratio per user

The number of users of TDD is simply too small to justify share ratio enforcement, at least at this point in time. etree has never done it because the community generally supports each other well enough to keep things seeded.

If by "etree" you mean "www.easytree.org" (aka EZTorrent), you're mistaken. They do enforce a minimum share ratio of 0.25.

I can't tell you how I know that without confessing my own blunders as a bit torrent newbie. The bottom line is, the policy bit me in the hindquarters and ultimately hurts the EZT community, too. Here's what happened:

I installed a Macintosh torrent client, miraculously signed up at EZT on the first try, and downloaded my brains out. I left the torrent windows running overnight. Next morning, only three of the seven downloads had finished but the network was down. I ended up rebooting.

Tried to resume downloads/uploads and hit the barrier: Access Denied because my share ratio had fallen below 0.25. Apparently my choices were not popular enough the night before, or the network died before my uploads ran long enough to keep me above 0.25.

Like a moron and/or newbie, I altered the downloads that DID complete, throwing out FLAC song titles or artwork I didn't want. Now I am stuck below 0.25 WITH NO WAY OUT.

Q. Why didn't you reseed some shows to build up your share ratio?
A. I could not, because my shows were incomplete due to deletions I made, before realizing the consequences. I had no other shows from other sources.

Q. Why don't you write to EZT moderators and ask for help?
A. I did. They repeatedly suggested that I seed new shows, which I repeatedly pointed out I could not do. They also suggested I pay money and become some sort of premium member, because then they would look the other way long enough for me to finish those downloads, keep them open to generate higher upload stats, and thus rehabilitate my share ratio.

Q. Well, at least have the decency to delete your EZT account, to make room for others.
A. I tried. It won't let you delete your account if it's under 0.25. Why this is, I don't know. I wonder how many dead accounts like mine are in that 100,000 total.

Q. Tell an EZT moderator that you're stuck in a dead end, so they can kill the account for you.
A. I did. He said it's impossible. My account will stay there until there has been FIVE MONTHS of inactivity.

Q. I hope you learned your lesson.
A. Darn right! For example, I left the Green Day torrent open for 5 days, until I had uploaded about 700% of the original. All other torrents I have left running until I was AT LEAST at 1:1, usually more than twice that. The reason I found this thread is that I was curious to find out what my share ratio has been at Traders Den. I'm sure my average is generously high due to my attitude and my big fat Comcast cable pipeline. I could be doing the same at EZT, but noooo ....

Last edited by BassmanRon; 2005-04-02 at 05:22 PM.
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  #22  
Old 2005-04-02, 06:02 PM
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jcrab66 jcrab66 is offline
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75.63 GB/483.42 GB/6.39
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Re: Share ratio per user

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassmanRon
The number of users of TDD is simply too small to justify share ratio enforcement, at least at this point in time. etree has never done it because the community generally supports each other well enough to keep things seeded.

If by "etree" you mean "www.easytree.org" (aka EZTorrent), you're mistaken. They do enforce a minimum share ratio of 0.25.
A. TDD now has whats approaching 30,000 members, hardly to small a number to justify share ratio enforcement.

B. I believe they are talking about etree, not easytree which are two completely separate and different things.........
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  #23  
Old 2005-04-02, 06:47 PM
outpostnorth outpostnorth is offline
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2.02 TB/2.15 TB/1.06
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Re: Share ratio per user

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassmanRon
If by "etree" you mean "www.easytree.org" (aka EZTorrent), you're mistaken. They do enforce a minimum share ratio of 0.25.

nope....he definately meant etree
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  #24  
Old 2005-04-02, 08:00 PM
Billster's Avatar
Billster Billster is offline
I still haven't found...
20.74 GB/22.54 GB/1.09
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kansas City
Re: Share ratio per user

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassmanRon
They do enforce a minimum share ratio of 0.25.

I can't tell you how I know that without confessing my own blunders as a bit torrent newbie. The bottom line is, the policy bit me in the hindquarters and ultimately hurts the EZT community, too. Here's what happened:

I installed a Macintosh torrent client, miraculously signed up at EZT on the first try, and downloaded my brains out. I left the torrent windows running overnight. Next morning, only three of the seven downloads had finished but the network was down. I ended up rebooting.

Tried to resume downloads/uploads and hit the barrier: Access Denied because my share ratio had fallen below 0.25. Apparently my choices were not popular enough the night before, or the network died before my uploads ran long enough to keep me above 0.25
Easytree has what is called a "share ratio enforcement level".

In the case of regular users, that level is 5 gigs - meaning if you haven't yet reached 5 gigs, you aren't subject to being banned regardless of share ratio. Every 5 gigs you download, you are assessed as being above or below .25.

So in your example, you downloaded 5 gigs in one night, and not even a complete night at that, since the network went down at some unknown point? Man, I cannot pull very close to 5 gigs a night, and I have broadband.

The share ratio enforcement is a good, prudent idea which among other things enables people to avoid exactly what happened to you - have a bad first day and get locked out as a result.
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  #25  
Old 2005-04-14, 10:01 PM
VanderVander
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Re: Share ratio per user

I typically get to 1:1 on any torrent I dl from any site.

As I see it, the problem with not having a ratio on TTD is that my overall stats in Azureus don't show how I'm doing with my TTD torrents. Overall in Azureus my dl=108 GB and my ul=160 GB, which is well over 1:1. But, because I know my ratio on another site is 1.78 and that site is a movie site (699 MB to 1 GB+ dls), I think I'm ahead mostly from that site.

For my current session, where I'm dling from etree.org, Azureus shows I'm at dl=550 MB and ul=65 MB, much less than 1:1. I'll stay open until I'm 1:1 or until there are no more leachers.

What I'd really like to know is: am I doing right by TDD? If I'm a little low, I'd try to catch up. I do have a few Arcade Fire shows where my shares are 1.33, 2.44, and 5.7, but when I take those out of Azureus where will I be?

I'd like to know my share ratio on TDD just for my own well being. It doesn't have to be used to enforce anything.
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  #26  
Old 2005-04-14, 11:41 PM
BassmanRon
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Re: Share ratio per user

>> Man, I cannot pull very close to 5 gigs a night, and I have broadband. <<

Comcast cable is at 4Mbps in my area, with uploads throttled to 384 kbps. If I go after popular and freshly seeded shows, it's not unusual to have four windows running at 60-80+ K/s down, 20-30 K/s up.

>>The share ratio enforcement is a good, prudent idea .... <<

As I admitted before, the problem was partly my own doing. I fiddled with the FLAC downloads, discarding songs I didn't want, not realizing I was already in deep trouble on the share ratio and that I should have kept them intact for continued sharing.

With dimeadozen.org, I've kept my share ratio above 1.25. Moreover, a lot of that has been serving up less active seeds and leaving them open as long as there are still people downloading from them. (I do that with TTD, too, since I myself am often in the same boat of catching the tail end of something ....)
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