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Lossy or Lossless? Please use this forum to post spectral and frequency analysis posts about shows you have your doubts about.

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  #31  
Old 2005-08-21, 11:40 PM
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Re: MMM Records

I don't think that looks like MP3 encoding. It looks like a notch filter to me. I have no idea why the hell you'd notch 13-16kHz, but it's been done. It's a notched attenuation.

If it was FM sourced, there would be nothing above the 15kHz pilot, so that's out. I think there was an irritating whine here for one reason or another and the boot boys removed it.

It COULD have been variable bitrate MP3, THEN notched out. Either way, it's screwed, but it's not FM and I don't think it's MP3 either, unless it is VBR.
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  #32  
Old 2005-08-22, 12:01 AM
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Re: MMM Records

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
Aren't you the same guygee who posted this on dime:
"I never believe booters UNLESS I know the label to be very reliable"
Since I seem to be on trial here...

I was never part of the "Doors Inner Circle" (an actual group of tapers/traders that had a website for awhile, by invitation only) and I had just recently obtained a replacement copy of the Doors Complete Matrix Tapes KTS boot from doors kicks-ass ftp, a boot that has stood the test of time for folks not in any inner circles (until recently widely acknowledged as best available version) so my comment was influenced by that particular version and label.

Since it is the only KTS boot I ever listened to (to my knowledge), my statement with "Unless" was not a good statement for me to make. So I misspoke a word or two, somewhere where you could find it...Feel Better Now? (Guilty As Charged)

Go search the google news groups back from 1989-1995, I am sure you will find a rich vein there to continue poking fun at me until hell freezes over. It is all a learning process for me, while you seem to be mired in your certainties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
Well, guygee, I guess you would say something like that since all your listed torrents at dime are from boots.....or possibly a tape source which is the same as a boot...but maybe it's pre-boot (or maybe not)
Yeah, all two are boots (one "Silver", one CDr(x)). The Miles Singen show was never in wide circulation until I seeded it, first at STG and then at DIME. I spent many hours going through that show fixing all of these little 10 ms-100 ms one-channel dropouts, literally searching sample-by-by sample. As I've learned from you, maybe these were "markings"? They are all unaudible now, but listed in my info.

The other seed was by request.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
QUOTE--- "Now in this case there is a boot, "Sing in Singen" that is "reportedly" a SBD ...... but this is NOT sourced from that boot, as the timings for "Sing in Singen" are different than mine" ---ENDQUOTE

Since you "bought" that Miles Davis show, what leads you to believe that you didn't purchase nothing more than a tape copy of a bootleg? What makes you so positive that you "bought" a pre-bootleg cassette??? (Maybe a boot seller 'told' you so?...)

What sort of comparisons did you perform on both the tape/bootleg to be 100% certain that your copy is indeed a a 'pre-bootleg' copy and not just another higher gen copy recorded directly off the bootleg???
Go back and read the post, and quit making your selective quotations that only serve to mislead. I never said I was "positive" it was not sourced from some bootleg, you said it.

The booter told me nothing about lineage, my reasoning was thus: My timings did not match the bootleg "Sing in Singen", as listed on an internet site, but they did match Peter Losin's timings, back when he collected cassette tapes. So *maybe* my show was from an earlier branch in the lineage. You'll note that I called it an aud and someone came back to correct me, it was "too good" to be an aud, and I told him I really didn't know, then I tried to make a reasonable guess. I suppose it is possible that a booter retracked "Sing in Singen" to match Peter Losin's timings exactly, but that seemed extremely unlikely, so I am fairly positive it was not sourced from that particular boot. I never said anything like "100% certain" it was not sourced from some boot, you said it in another attempt to mislead. (Found Innocent).

Court adjourned...for good.

And by all means please follow up and finish this topic with some famous last words. Like maybe you can top your last zinger

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
You somehow think the world owes you something. I sure as hell don't, not even the wind from my ass to cool your soup.
I notice some people here at TTD have adopted that as their .sig now. What a great contribution you have made to the friendly atmosphere at TTD!

Really, freezer, I respect your knowledge, but I am tired of your constant ad hominem attacks. Didn't mommy breastfeed you when you were a baby?
As they used to say on Usenet, "plonk"...(now where is that killfile feature on the tracker??)
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  #33  
Old 2005-08-22, 12:07 AM
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Re: MMM Records

Yeah, so, anyway.... this source appears to be uniquely molested... no particular common method.
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  #34  
Old 2005-08-22, 12:09 AM
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Re: MMM Records

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskg
there was an irritating whine here for one reason or another and the boot boys removed it.

guygee, he's referring to you. Them boot boys got your number.

Quack quack, guy........
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  #35  
Old 2005-08-22, 12:10 AM
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Re: MMM Records

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskg
I don't think that looks like MP3 encoding. It looks like a notch filter to me. I have no idea why the hell you'd notch 13-16kHz, but it's been done. It's a notched attenuation.

If it was FM sourced, there would be nothing above the 15kHz pilot, so that's out. I think there was an irritating whine here for one reason or another and the boot boys removed it.

It COULD have been variable bitrate MP3, THEN notched out. Either way, it's screwed, but it's not FM and I don't think it's MP3 either, unless it is VBR.
I think definitely a notch filter, but how about that blockiness above 16 KHz? How would that come in except with some lossy encoding? So I lean towards Notched/VBR. I should try that on some other shows and see if they look the same as this one.
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  #36  
Old 2005-08-22, 12:31 AM
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Re: MMM Records

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
I think definitely a notch filter, but how about that blockiness above 16 KHz? How would that come in except with some lossy encoding? So I lean towards Notched/VBR. I should try that on some other shows and see if they look the same as this one.
If you do try that on a show, send the FA and SA to Five (and/or post them in a thread here - post the original and then the after affects). It's good to see what happens when you 'do' something to a show. That way we can all learn what it looks like and be better able to spot this stuff the next time it happens.

Also, there is an Ignore feature.... User CP > bottom of left column: http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...hp?do=editlist

Don't let freezer get to you. It's not worth letting *anyone* on a messageboard get to you. Especially when they *try* to get to you. And yeah, I've learned that the hard way!
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  #37  
Old 2005-08-22, 12:40 AM
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Re: MMM Records

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
Go back and read the post, and quit making your selective quotations that only serve to mislead. I never said I was "positive" it was not sourced from some bootleg, you said it.
No I asked if you were positive.

Are you positive?

See....That was a question. Same as before.

??? usually denotes a question.

Go back and read the post, and you'll understand the difference between a statement and a question.



Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
The booter told me nothing about lineage, my reasoning was thus: My timings did not match the bootleg "Sing in Singen", as listed on an internet site, but they did match Peter Losin's timings, back when he collected cassette tapes. So *maybe* my show was from an earlier branch in the lineage. You'll note that I called it an aud and someone came back to correct me, it was "too good" to be an aud, and I told him I really didn't know, then I tried to make a reasonable guess. I suppose it is possible that a booter retracked "Sing in Singen" to match Peter Losin's timings exactly, but that seemed extremely unlikely, so I am fairly positive it was not sourced from that particular boot. I never said anything like "100% certain" it was not sourced from some boot, you said it in another attempt to mislead. (Found Innocent).

Found innocent?

Again, I asked.

You mislead when you attempt to make it appear it was a statement.

These were questions I asked about your bootlegs. And your conclusions about them. I was curious to see if you were as meticilous about the 2 bootlegs you offered as you are were about a Zappa bootleg you were getting for free.

But I notice you have a propensity not to answer direct questions.
(Found guilty)



"Plonk" indeed



Don't let anyone *get* to you....

Especially when you *know* the sky is falling.
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  #38  
Old 2005-08-22, 02:09 AM
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Re: MMM Records

I've forgotten what the hell the actual audio is now... is it worth all this?
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  #39  
Old 2005-08-22, 04:27 AM
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Re: MMM Records

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskg
I've forgotten what the hell the actual audio is now... is it worth all this?
No, it is not. Sorry for the blow-up, but I was just trying to carry on a simple conversation on this show, and multiple "quack quack" replies are not on topic, so there is just too much noise to converse. Also maybe this forum should be reserved strictly for audio analysis and not rehashing the ridiculous Zappa wars that have been going on since since the days of alt.binaries.*. I started a "ninja documentation" thread in the past regarding his STG seeds, it is buried on some firewire drive somewhere, so maybe Zappateers would like to archive that if I can dig it out. For my part I think, here, let's just post the SGs and FAs and discuss what they mean, and what processes may have created any anomalies.

I will try the experiment with VBR using a couple of different codecs and then notch them like this show, then compare before and after and with this show. I'll post it under a new thread in the near future. Since those blocks above 16KHz are of different blocksize time intervals, I am thinking that this is the VBR signature to look for, so it would be good to verify if this is true, and dig out what information we can on the various codec algorithms, like minimum block size.
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  #40  
Old 2005-08-22, 04:38 AM
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Re: MMM Records

i wish i had the time to delve as far deep into pointless shit as some people do....
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  #41  
Old 2005-08-24, 12:46 AM
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Re: MMM Records

So what would it look like if lossless? Forgive my ignorance here, but how do you tell the diff from spectrum analyses? What do you look for?
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  #42  
Old 2005-08-24, 12:50 AM
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Re: MMM Records

Five will be along shortly with a link for you...
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  #43  
Old 2005-08-24, 12:51 AM
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Re: MMM Records

I suggest you take a look at the Stickies at the top of this forum.
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  #44  
Old 2005-08-28, 03:49 PM
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Re: MMM Records

Quote:
Originally Posted by applepiehubub
So what would it look like if lossless? Forgive my ignorance here, but how do you tell the diff from spectrum analyses? What do you look for?
yes, check the stickys.

the best way to learn is to read some of the threads here, especially the ones with lots of pics.

loosely, what to look for is a steep dropoff in the fa and lego in the sa when zoomed in
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