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Lossy or Lossless? Please use this forum to post spectral and frequency analysis posts about shows you have your doubts about.

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  #16  
Old 2005-08-21, 02:09 AM
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Re: MMM Records

I can get behind that

hey guygee can you show us spectral view zoomed to two seconds in cep/audacity whatever that is you used to make the fa?

this show looks really freakin weird
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  #17  
Old 2005-08-21, 02:27 AM
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Re: MMM Records

Five - I am just getting the hang of sizing these right so they are not too large to upload, here is a 2 Sec zoom (this is with Soundforge 8.0, the fa was with Cool Edit Pro 2.0):
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  #18  
Old 2005-08-21, 04:53 AM
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Re: MMM Records

Quote:
Originally Posted by U2Lynne
...We have to deal with reality now, and internet and bittorrent are what is real right now. So, these bootleggers exist.... bt exists..... ebay exists..... tapers exist..... traders exist..... it's all about trying to figure out how to deal with all these real things right now. I don't think there is a right answer. And if there were a right answer, it would require everyone agreeing and doing the same thing. I think we know that isn't going to happen. So, most sites try their best to deal with the reality in the best way possible. Right now, our way is to try to liberate bootlegged shows and get them out to people so people don't need to buy them. And, we also want to give tapers a way to get shows out to the masses so bootleggers lose. I think, at the moment, perhaps neither side is really winning. So, we keep trying.
U2Lynne - I have to add that I agree completely with the ideas you expressed above. Freezer claims it is a level playing field with respect to shows he released long ago, but I respectfully have to disagree - I think it could be all downhill from here if we are not vigilant. This show we are discussing now could be some kind of "new threat", it may be some advanced kind of lossy compression or some kind of screwed-up NR that is just as bad as an mp3, or maybe it is something as simple as a ham-handed bandstop filter, perhaps even used to "mark" this version of the show.

I looked at the sg and fa and passed it on to others, calling it "bizarre", Five says it is "freakin' weird", and others whom I have shown it to used almost the exact same description. So I think it would be great if we can pull together all the expertise we can muster, get if figured out, and get the word out. If you would rather I not start up such discussions in the future, I will honor your request (with regrets). If we cannot stay on the simple topic at hand, "what happened to this show", then all the off-topic clutter and flaming renders such discussions useless anyways.
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  #19  
Old 2005-08-21, 06:01 AM
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Re: MMM Records

d/led this too ...
sitting in front of fa ...
think fa goes down to early (at about 13 to 14k and comes back at 16k in my sample)
could it be fm-sourced and digitally ruined?
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  #20  
Old 2005-08-21, 07:22 AM
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Re: MMM Records

This looks strange, but lossy. Thatīs part of track 2 (DaD).



zoomed in the y-axis the blocks come out nicer.


guygee, never seen soundforge sa-pics. Could you increase the FFT size?
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  #21  
Old 2005-08-21, 10:36 AM
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Re: MMM Records

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
U2Lynne - I have to add that I agree completely with the ideas you expressed above. Freezer claims it is a level playing field with respect to shows he released long ago, but I respectfully have to disagree - I think it could be all downhill from here if we are not vigilant.
The playing field is level, as level as you're going to get it as long as you trust the bootleggers you buy from. Its as level as you can get when you buy stolen property and expect a fair shake.

So, how much money did you say you paid for this Zappa "Ontario Slime" boot?

Well, you obviously got your money's worth.

Caveat Emptor, guy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
This show we are discussing now could be some kind of "new threat", it may be some advanced kind of lossy compression or some kind of screwed-up NR that is just as bad as an mp3, or maybe it is something as simple as a ham-handed bandstop filter, perhaps even used to "mark" this version of the show.
If you know anything about the Zappa trade community, only one particular Zappa collector has the reputation for circulating mp3 shows with "ham-fisted" noise reduction techniques. Do you think it's possible that this poor unsuspecting bootlegger got stung when he stole this show for 'commercial' release?

If you look at the dimeadozen thread for this show---
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=55960
---you'll see that some folks have actually figured it out.

"A new threat???" The sky is falling, the sky is falling.



Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
I looked at the sg and fa and passed it on to others, calling it "bizarre", Five says it is "freakin' weird", and others whom I have shown it to used almost the exact same description. So I think it would be great if we can pull together all the expertise we can muster, get if figured out, and get the word out.
Get the word out? You want to condemn this poor bootlegger's entire catalogue just because you were unhappy with your first experience with his 'product'???

As many comments at dime raved about the sound quality as comdemned it.
That appears to be a pretty level playing field. What more are you owed?



Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
If you would rather I not start up such discussions in the future, I will honor your request (with regrets). If we cannot stay on the simple topic at hand, "what happened to this show", then all the off-topic clutter and flaming renders such discussions useless anyways.
Now let's see if I understand you---
You're worried about this show/bootleg because you want to know "what happened to this show"???

And you think that determining who in the Zappa community seeds shows that are mp3 sourced with "ham-fisted" noise reduction is 'off-topic'???

You know, if you'd have just read at your own posts in that very same thread on dime, (you remember, the one you said helped 'just muddied the waters even more...") then you could have figured it out and you wouldn't have needed to start this thread and get hysterical.

Calm down Chicken Little, the sky isn't falling......just yet.

A little common sense would have told you who stung the bootlegger and you by extention.

quack, quack, guy.

No need to take your ball and go home......just yet.
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  #22  
Old 2005-08-21, 10:59 AM
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Re: MMM Records

Basically any Silver CD or Liberrated Bootleg is from an unknown and they all should be checked before posted anywhere. Not sure why we would have to have a policy on just one bootlegger, if anything we should require a FA on anything like this.
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  #23  
Old 2005-08-21, 12:51 PM
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Re: MMM Records

Rider - Does TTD require FA on all boots seeded here? I agree the seeder should do it before seeding, but in mariginal cases what do they have to compare to?
I already knew there was a version of that show circulating, a/d'ed and uploaded by someone who was a solid seeder and gained my trust with his seeds on STG (now a "zappateer"), so I downloaded that show for the express purpose of analyzing it to solve a "mystery", to learn something and discuss it with people with similar interests in audio analysis, and just maybe to provide a small service to other people in the process. freezer's sudden sympathy with "poor unsuspecting booters" is touching, but I only had to listen to the first few seconds of that show to know that "something was wrong", so I suggest that any other shows from that label should be suspect as well.

Last edited by guygee; 2005-08-21 at 12:59 PM.
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  #24  
Old 2005-08-21, 01:53 PM
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Re: MMM Records

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
Rider - Does TTD require FA on all boots seeded here? I agree the seeder should do it before seeding, but in mariginal cases what do they have to compare to?
I already knew there was a version of that show circulating, a/d'ed and uploaded by someone who was a solid seeder and gained my trust with his seeds on STG (now a "zappateer"), so I downloaded that show for the express purpose of analyzing it to solve a "mystery", to learn something and discuss it with people with similar interests in audio analysis, and just maybe to provide a small service to other people in the process. freezer's sudden sympathy with "poor unsuspecting booters" is touching, but I only had to listen to the first few seconds of that show to know that "something was wrong", so I suggest that any other shows from that label should be suspect as well.

NO but we do require people to at least check any show with unknown parts of it's lineage, and anyshow that has goen through the hands of a bootlegger has basically a totally unknown lineage.
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  #25  
Old 2005-08-21, 02:47 PM
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Re: MMM Records

Agreed, I have never seen a bootleg with lineage, and I wouldn't trust the lineage if it was there, but the guy who seeded this show presumably "checked" by listening, and even announced the seed over on Zappateers.

I've never been big into bootlegs, but there seem to be people out there that revere certain "boot labels", like "Kiss the Stone" or "Crystal Cat". I don't necessarily understand this fetish for these boots (I "hope" it is musical quality but for all I know it is the artwork??), but in lieu of any verifiable lineage, in theory a bootleg is just as good a starting point to compare sources as any other. In practice, however, I have come to trust certain seeders over others, and that is when some occassional analysis and discussion can help spread the word.

I hope you or any of the other moderators at TTD did not find my posts to be offensive, it was not meant to be so.
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  #26  
Old 2005-08-21, 03:07 PM
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Re: MMM Records

Quote:
Originally Posted by christo
d/led this too ...
sitting in front of fa ...
think fa goes down to early (at about 13 to 14k and comes back at 16k in my sample)
could it be fm-sourced and digitally ruined?
Unless somebody comes along with better knowledge of audio software algorithms, my last best guess as to "what happened to this show" is pretty much summed up in freezer's post above.

You were right again freezer, it was right in front of me and I didn't see it.
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  #27  
Old 2005-08-21, 04:13 PM
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U2Lynne U2Lynne is offline
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Re: MMM Records

Guy, I didn't mean to say it shouldn't be discussed here (I actually like reading this stuff and trying to learn about what goes into FA and SA), I was just saying that someone should alert the Mods over there since it seemed they had already discussed that show at one point. And, I, like you, wish that they talked about this stuff in public over there like we do here. I think everyone can learn something by looking at these discussions.

I'm interested to read that thread at DIME that freezer posted, however, it seems DIME is down (which means that any minute now we can expect the "Is DIME working for you?" thread in The Lounge. lol).
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  #28  
Old 2005-08-21, 09:20 PM
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Re: MMM Records

YOW....it's getting deep in here .....gotta get on the ol' galoshes to wade through this stuff .....

But since this does reference using common sense to understand the bootleg mentality AND to discern sound quality on said bootlegs, I hope it's alright to post this here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
Agreed, I have never seen a bootleg with lineage, and I wouldn't trust the lineage if it was there ........
Aren't you the same guygee who posted this on dime:
"I never believe booters UNLESS I know the label to be very reliable"

Well, guygee, I guess you would say something like that since all your listed torrents at dime are from boots.....or possibly a tape source which is the same as a boot...but maybe it's pre-boot (or maybe not)

QUOTE--- "Now in this case there is a boot, "Sing in Singen" that is "reportedly" a SBD ...... but this is NOT sourced from that boot, as the timings for "Sing in Singen" are different than mine" ---ENDQUOTE

Since you "bought" that Miles Davis show, what leads you to believe that you didn't purchase nothing more than a tape copy of a bootleg? What makes you so positive that you "bought" a pre-bootleg cassette??? (Maybe a boot seller 'told' you so?...)

What sort of comparisons did you perform on both the tape/bootleg to be 100% certain that your copy is indeed a a 'pre-bootleg' copy and not just another higher gen copy recorded directly off the bootleg???



Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
I've never been big into bootlegs..........
For someone not "big" into bootlegs, haven't your only seeds at dime been from bootlegs?

quack quack guy



Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
freezer's sudden sympathy with "poor unsuspecting booters" is touching
No, it's sarcasm. A little deductive reasoning would have give you the clue you needed. I guess I shouldn't have left off the lol icon.

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  #29  
Old 2005-08-21, 10:26 PM
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Re: MMM Records

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
But since this does reference using common sense to understand the bootleg mentality AND to discern sound quality on said bootlegs, I hope it's alright to post this here.
Nope. I told Guy he could post here, not you!
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  #30  
Old 2005-08-21, 11:20 PM
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Re: MMM Records

Well, Miss Lynne, I guess you told me off but good.......

And gee whiz and goodness golly. Miss Lynne, I sure do hope them big bad bootleggers don't scare lil' guygee no more.

"The sky is falling............"

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