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  #76  
Old 2005-08-12, 05:20 AM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

I think wholefile md5s with the info of the state of the audiofile (f.e. *.shn, non seekable) could be useful at the beginning of creating the database. Like on the Zeppelin Digital series, that were seeded five years ago as shn and the original md5s are available. Then someone with the matching files could up the fingerprints.
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  #77  
Old 2005-08-12, 08:22 AM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
freezer - I just clicked "buy it now" on one of those old mono radio shack cassette players on ebay, paypalled, and had it fedexed to me. I plan to hold the microphone up to my speakers, and tape "Lite Jazz in the Morning" on the local PBS, day after tomorrow.

The seed will quickly follow.
are you sure about cassette Guy? i hear MD is by far the best you can get these days...and ATRAC sounds *just like* a 24bit 96kHz recording
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  #78  
Old 2005-08-12, 10:48 AM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
freezer - I just clicked "buy it now" on one of those old mono radio shack cassette players on ebay, paypalled, and had it fedexed to me. I plan to hold the microphone up to my speakers, and tape "Lite Jazz in the Morning" on the local PBS, day after tomorrow.

The seed will quickly follow.
Wow, as you can seed it to yourself, of course using your own "standards for naming torrent files" -- you should be very happy knowing at least one person followed your suggestions.

Unless you decide to bootleg it and sell it to yourself. With bogus lineage.

Or you could just head over to the lounge and donate money for someone to tape/video U2. Then you can explain to those guys how you'd like them to follow your "standards"......

I'll bet they'll do exactly as you "suggest"........
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  #79  
Old 2005-08-12, 12:08 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
Using an example of a site laced with faulty lineage is only good if no one calls your bluff and looks at it. The only Miles tape I definitely, POSITIVELY know about on his list has a wrong source of origin...Caveat Emptor, baby...
Your warnings on faulty lineage are well-taken, especially on the shows you taped yourself, but if you can find only one error on Peter Losin's list , why do you say it is "laced with faulty lineage"?

Caveat Emptor? How about Absente Reo?

Here's the link to Peter Losin's Miles Davis tape list:

http://www.plosin.com/milesAhead/Tapes.aspx?a=audio

If you can give me some definite information on the error you found, I'll email Peter and try to get his comments. Who knows, maybe he will even answer...
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  #80  
Old 2005-08-12, 03:34 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

For resurfacing coorporate identity hits my eye, like The MaloneyJoe Archive or Zeppelin Digital, Whoweeds or some releases like the Dancing avocado supreme that looks like a commercial bootleg, helps keeping recordings in mind.
Bundled with a link to a master database with fingerprints chances are high lineages remain accurate, as long as the initial seeders ones were.

You could also do some overkill and add "spectral fingerprints" to yer files. Sure a master database would still be needed.

Thanks to Five for pointing that out.



Some other offtopic.
There´s a german forum whose coder implemented an offtopic checkbox where users could mark their posts as so and others could hide all these.
I don´t know how hard this is to realize, but I think this is very useful.
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  #81  
Old 2005-08-12, 04:11 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

range_hood - I am glad you took those spectral fingerprints and started that topic on the whoweeds series:

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...ad.php?t=10550

Those pictures speak a thousand words, especially if you know how to read them.

In cases where you can never get "true" lineage all the way back to the source (regardless of whether is it is lineage lost or dubious), I do not think including them in the master database would be overkill. This, of course, includes all bootleg copies by default (are there any bootlegs truly "straight from the Masters"? I've never seen such).

Are the whoweeds series really "best circulating sources"? I could quickly check my tapes against the spectral prints you posted , using "Sound Frequency Analyzer" and a cable from my deck to my computer. It would be very easy to see if my tapes have the same agressive NR as on some of those shows, given the prints you made.

I am going to include your prints in my show documentation, and append the directories like *_WhoWeeds.shnf

Last edited by guygee; 2005-08-12 at 04:16 PM.
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  #82  
Old 2005-08-12, 04:58 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
Your warnings on faulty lineage are well-taken, especially on the shows you taped yourself, but if you can find only one error on Peter Losin's list , why do you say it is "laced with faulty lineage"?

Caveat Emptor? How about Absente Reo?

Here's the link to Peter Losin's Miles Davis tape list:

http://www.plosin.com/milesAhead/Tapes.aspx?a=audio

If you can give me some definite information on the error you found, I'll email Peter and try to get his comments. Who knows, maybe he will even answer...

If I can spot one error I'm absolutely positive about, then I'm sure the list owner did much the same in 'determining' lineage on the rest. (Personally, I see it like this: If I spot one or two obvious mistakes, #1. I would be hesitant to accept the veracity of anything else on his list. I might trade, but I would not believe his "lineage" -- sorry if you or anyone doesn't understand that, but I have over 35 years of collecting experience behind me. This is a lesson that one learns through all facets of the collecting experience, not something gleaned by sitting behind a computer keyboard.)

No, he doesn't have the other Miles recording I'm positive about (a 1973 show in New Orleans) but what do I care if he has correct data on his list.

Did Mr Losin care that the taper was absent when he made his pronouncement?

"Absente Reo" - good one. I like it.

Looks like you finally figured out that in many cases, it's not the taper's fault that some self-appointed 'expert' makes a really pretty web site, now is it?

Who cares if the taper seen errors, right? Absente Reo indeed.

Caveat Emptor, baby.
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  #83  
Old 2005-08-12, 07:02 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
If I can spot one error I'm absolutely positive about, then I'm sure the list owner did much the same in 'determining' lineage on the rest. (Personally, I see it like this: If I spot one or two obvious mistakes, #1. I would be hesitant to accept the veracity of anything else on his list. I might trade, but I would not believe his "lineage" -- sorry if you or anyone doesn't understand that, but I have over 35 years of collecting experience behind me. This is a lesson that one learns through all facets of the collecting experience, not something gleaned by sitting behind a computer keyboard.)
OK , freezer, I do not think Mr. Losin was or is a taper, just a very determined collector. So the lesson is, if we do not tape the show ourselves, or know the taper, or at least correspond with the taper, then all lineage (and by "lineage" I mean lineage from the SOURCE recording) is suspect. Also, lineage can be fabricated. Lesson learned.

BTW, to others, I do not think this discussion has been off-topic, only perhaps filled with distractions and (sometimes biting, stinging) humor.
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  #84  
Old 2005-08-13, 01:33 AM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
OK , freezer, I do not think Mr. Losin was or is a taper, just a very determined collector. So the lesson is, if we do not tape the show ourselves, or know the taper, or at least correspond with the taper, then all lineage (and by "lineage" I mean lineage from the SOURCE recording) is suspect. Also, lineage can be fabricated. Lesson learned..
Take notes, there'll be a test later.

You might still even correspond with the taper and still not get a positive answer as to generation.

Mike Millard absolutely detested non-taping traders. What makes anyone think that any of his master tapes were digitally cloned and are circulating in a definite and verifiable generation? I'd venture to guess that the best chance you have of tracking down something he taped in a verifiable generation is to locate someone who was a taper and who actually traded with him.

But there are lots of Led Zepplin collectors who are convinced that they have clones of verifiable generation copies of his recordings. It doesn't take much presence of mind to find such collectors.

I knew Mike and traded with him and I still don't believe that I can prove I have first gen copies of his tapes even with his handwriting on the cassette j-card.


Now consider this:

Here's an announcement that I received in today's mail from Mr Fish-head E.S.: The Battle of Baton Rouge (2/28/75) 3 CD Empress Valley Label $97

If anyone thinks that this bootlegger is doing anything but selling a copy of a torrent picked up off dime or R-O then I really have some swampland to sell 'em also.

(Thanks Bram.......)


Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
BTW, to others, I do not think this discussion has been off-topic, only perhaps filled with distractions and (sometimes biting, stinging) humor.
Have you said you considered something humorous, Guy?

I hadn't noticed....
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  #85  
Old 2005-08-13, 11:37 AM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
You might still even correspond with the taper and still not get a positive answer as to generation.

Mike Millard absolutely detested non-taping traders. What makes anyone think that any of his master tapes were digitally cloned and are circulating in a definite and verifiable generation? I'd venture to guess that the best chance you have of tracking down something he taped in a verifiable generation is to locate someone who was a taper and who actually traded with him.

But there are lots of Led Zepplin collectors who are convinced that they have clones of verifiable generation copies of his recordings. It doesn't take much presence of mind to find such collectors.

I knew Mike and traded with him and I still don't believe that I can prove I have first gen copies of his tapes even with his handwriting on the cassette j-card.
Is this an "I only believe in lineage for shows I personally taped" philosophy, or was taper Mike known to be a prankster or something? If the former, then 1st gens might as well not exist; we know that they DO exist, but we can never be sure if a particular recording is 1st gen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
Now consider this:

Here's an announcement that I received in today's mail from Mr Fish-head E.S.: The Battle of Baton Rouge (2/28/75) 3 CD Empress Valley Label $97

If anyone thinks that this bootlegger is doing anything but selling a copy of a torrent picked up off dime or R-O then I really have some swampland to sell 'em also.

(Thanks Bram.......)
Well, hundreds of collectors must have also grabbed it. At least a few of them will be serious collectors who will properly document where they got it, etc. If it a worthwhile show, it will get reseeded. Plus, if I really want the show, I can track down collectors on google, inquire about their archiving practices, find the serious collectors, and trade for it.

When you pointed out that many Dylan collectors have a fetish for boots, I never thought about it before, but I have to admit you are right. But at least they have carefully documented the quality of the boots. Personally, I have far more Dylan on cassette than on actual boots, and the boots are only of his very earliest work (which is probably best preserved on certain bootlegs).

As for Bram and booters, I think torrenting will eventually put the booters out of business (maybe I'm just an optimist). As for people too lazy to keep good archives and trade, or too impatient to wait for the reseed, maybe they deserve to pay the price. Booters, you gotta hate 'em, but perhaps their only redemption is, at least in some cases, they helped preserve music that might be otherwise be lost or never circulated. A few (very few in my limited experience) even care about quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
Have you said you considered something humorous, Guy?

I hadn't noticed....
Must be a lack of sense of humor on my part. Some of your posts have lots of those little laughing faces, rolls-eyes and such, maybe those are just aids to help you get your point across. For example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
Take notes, there'll be a test later.
I think it is funny that when I concede your logical point(s), you still throw in these types of comments with the appropriate funny-face selection. Humour, at the expense of others (me in this case). When you are in "serious mode", I would much rather hear what else you have to say then respond in like manner to these little asides, plus I guess maybe you are trying to tell me something like, "when are you gonna get it?" In this case, first you tell me I should respect your 35 years experience as a taper, then you poke a little fun at me when I go into "student-mode".

And to anyone else who might have bothered to read this far, I think freezer has made his case to any rational person that we should be skeptical about any "full" lineage that traces music back to the Master recording.

All this just reinforces the argument that we should have "versioned" torrents and a DB with complete documentation, because if we must be skeptical about the full lineage, at least we can be certain about the partial lineage. The "partial lineage" is the lineage that starts from a known "reference point".
The reference point could be a bootleg, it could be one of freezer's actual master tapes that he kindly donated, but (and freezer's arguments only reinforce this point) the only "reference point" we can be absolutely sure of is the torrent itself. If the torrent is not versioned and documented, we can be sure of nothing. I can only hope TTD decides to take on this project.

And one last point on documentation: "Silver CD > EAC> wav>flac" or "CDr(x)> EAC>wav>flac" are not examples of partial lineage unless the EAC logs are included. So add that to the documentation list.
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  #86  
Old 2005-08-13, 01:23 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
.......was taper Mike known to be a prankster or something?....
Prankster, not really. Something else entirely.

A curmudgeon who rightly thought that non-taping collectors were lower than leeches. (Bloodsuckers is the term he used.)

The recording quality he achieved is now "legendary" among collectors who know his work.

He passed away a number of years ago and the master recordings he made are locked away and are since unaccesable to anyone.

Yet, there are collectors and bootleggers who tout that they do have copies of his "masters." (either deceitfully or innocently, these "good collectors" still polute the trade pool)

Also take into account that he would "mark" copies traded out. He did things like making "drop-outs" on copies (or similar "markings" only he knew about) and he kept notes so as to be able to discern where a bootleg had originated.

So it is highly dubious that unedited master clones of his recordings are in circulation. But you'll see them on lists or offered as torrents.




Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
(RE: Led Zepplin 2/28/75)
Well, hundreds of collectors must have also grabbed it. At least a few of them will be serious collectors who will properly document where they got it, etc. If it a worthwhile show, it will get reseeded. Plus, if I really want the show, I can track down collectors on google, inquire about their archiving practices, find the serious collectors, and trade for it.
That tape has seen more than 10 different bootleg permutations, and it is generally considered a "must-have" Led Zeppelin tape. However, there is no verifiable generation in circulation. Yes, you will see certain collectors' lists claiming a "low gen" or "master" copy, but that's truly bogus lineage.

Trade for it all you want, but as far as a verified generation, that you won't find.

You may have to go back to searching for the "best sounding version" method in this case.

Oh, and just so you know, many of the collectors with the bogus lineage on 2/28/75 Led Zeppelin consider themselves "serious collectors."

The same holds true for the Pink Floyd 4/28/77 Baton Rouge. "Serious collectors" believe they have a low gen copy, but that's just not true and don't try to change their minds with the truth either.



Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
When you pointed out that many Dylan collectors have a fetish for boots, I never thought about it before, but I have to admit you are right. But at least they have carefully documented the quality of the boots. Personally, I have far more Dylan on cassette than on actual boots, and the boots are only of his very earliest work (which is probably best preserved on certain bootlegs).
"Carefully documented"??? C'mon. The last torrent of 5/3/76 late New Orleans Warehouse (over on dime) gave the lineage as "This is a great show that has been released several times in the past, always incomplete. This is the best version to date."

That's "carefully documented"?????

(see for yourself: http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=52429 )

And as for "earliest work........do you consider 5/3/76 to be "earliest work"????

It does come from a time when many of the folks into "torrents" weren't yet born......



Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
As for Bram and booters, I think torrenting will eventually put the booters out of business (maybe I'm just an optimist).
You are definitely an optimist. Not a bad thing to be, but CDR was also supposed to put the bootleggers out of business, The internet was supposed to put the bootleggers out of business, This trading site was supposed to put the bootleggers out of business, etc etc etc.

Each one in turn helped make the bootleggers job a lot easier.

Your "standards for naming file folders" will help the bootleggers job get easier also. It comes with the territory.



Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
. Booters, you gotta hate 'em, but perhaps their only redemption is, at least in some cases, they helped preserve music that might be otherwise be lost or never circulated. A few (very few in my limited experience) even care about quality.
Didn't Capone says something like that about his bootlegging operation?

Oh, yeah, he said he was performing a public duty. ("When I sell liquor, it's called bootlegging; when my patrons serve it on Lake Shore Drive, it's called hospitality." This is what's known as rationalization. You'll find a prime example in your previous paragraph, about bootleggers "preserving music".....They are preserving their bank accounts at the expense of genuine collectors and 'archivists'.)



Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
Must be a lack of sense of humor on my part. Some of your posts have lots of those little laughing faces, rolls-eyes and such, maybe those are just aids to help you get your point across. I think it is funny that when I concede your logical point(s), you still throw in these types of comments with the appropriate funny-face selection
Ah, grasshopper, "a lack of sense of humor"???

Not you....

You've been a good sport, not like the guys who chime in just to attack.

We've been able to agree AND agree to disagree, hmmmmmmm?



In the interim, try this link, for a start:
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...952#post185952

Now where's that show you recorded ....

Last edited by freezer; 2005-08-13 at 01:32 PM.
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