The Traders' Den  

  The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble
 

Notices

Technobabble Post your general Need for Help questions here.
Lossy or Lossless?
Moderators

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 2005-08-10, 12:44 AM
freezer's Avatar
freezer freezer is offline
TTD VIP
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: in your worst nightmare
Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Well guygee, at least you didn't rant on endlessly about bootleggers.



Yes I did supply the seeder the FC #21.

Yes this is the lineage I supplied: Unknown Mics and/or recorder > Cass(m) played back on JVC TD-W 209 > JVC XL-R5010 stand alone burner (I never give out info on my recorders or mics. I could have told where in each venue the recording was made, as I still have the ticket stubs. I did tell him what I wore to each show, but I've forgotten what I had for dinner on those evenings. )

Yes I recently sent out a package to dorrcoq and he'll be seeding something from me this weekend, I believe. I think he now has lineage supplied this evening.


No to Mr wennykelly1: Sorry, I'd rather spend time supplying UNCIRCULATED shows than supplying master copies of already circulating shows to charlatans and frauds who fabricate lineages (RE: PF 4/28/77 and YES 12/1/74). Time to move on, sir. If the best you can get is a unverified lineage bootleg, then everybody has an even playing field. No need to go any further than saying "lineage - unverified generation bootleg" -- now, is there?
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #32  
Old 2005-08-10, 01:30 AM
guygee's Avatar
guygee guygee is offline
Non Serviam
1.17 TB/2.93 TB/2.50
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Astro Intergalactic Infinity
Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by U2Lynne
Damn, are you Stephen in disguise (RainDawg here, or sol4578 on STG)? He has a similar idea for here. We just need some programmers to work on it. I'm the only one currently programming here and I always seem to have my hands full with other projects and so he and I have never figured out exactly how we want that to work. I'd love your ideas on it. I can pass them on to Stephen and see what he thinks.
I am not sure what is feasible with respect to your tracker software and bittorrent tracker technology in general, so just let me start with a "wish list":

1)Create a database of all shows torrented on Trader's Den, to include info file, seeder, st5/ffp's, date uploaded, size, taper/bootleg title, thread/torrent #. This should be easily searchable on artist/show date, seeder, taper/bootleg title, date uploaded, thread/torrent #.

2)In the future, automatically "tack-on" a torrent file ID to the torrent folder, something like ".TDnnnnn." would be nice.

3) Better, (and I realize this is probably very difficult) auto-generate a small additional info file, something like "[TorrentFolderName]-TDNotes.txt". This should be added to the torrent somehow, and include "Uploaded to Traders Den", DB url, seeder, upload date, torrent ID, size.

Maybe this could be accomplished by having seeders fill out a short form before torrenting, but I have to wonder if this would stop certain seeders from posting here (see page 1). Personally, I would vote against anything that discouraged people (especially tapers) from seeding. So whatever is done in this vein better be extremely user-friendly.

Let me know what you think, maybe we can take this off-line and talk some tech talk with you and RainDawg in a couple of days, I have a window between semesters after tomorrow.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #33  
Old 2005-08-10, 01:48 AM
guygee's Avatar
guygee guygee is offline
Non Serviam
1.17 TB/2.93 TB/2.50
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Astro Intergalactic Infinity
Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
Yes I did supply the seeder the FC #21.

Yes this is the lineage I supplied: Unknown Mics and/or recorder > Cass(m) played back on JVC TD-W 209 > JVC XL-R5010 stand alone burner (I never give out info on my recorders or mics. I could have told where in each venue the recording was made, as I still have the ticket stubs. I did tell him what I wore to each show, but I've forgotten what I had for dinner on those evenings. )
Well my thanks were not entirely misplaced. Despite the obvious flaws in the lineage (what color socks were you wearing?), your personal verification is now appended to my infofile. You ARE the REAL freezer, right?
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #34  
Old 2005-08-10, 02:30 AM
guygee's Avatar
guygee guygee is offline
Non Serviam
1.17 TB/2.93 TB/2.50
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Astro Intergalactic Infinity
Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
Since I've been a member of this site, I have not been offered anything resembling a trade.

I have had demands made of me and I have been called a hoarder while the shows in question are available (just not from me) and I have supplied other recordings to collectors in order to circulate, but "TRADE"???

What means that word, Kemosabe???

And as far as receiving the same quality as I'd sent out, I found that unless you trade solely within a small circle of tapers, then it's "Caveat Emptor" all the way, baby. ( I've seen on a certain torrent site where the phrase, "sounds good" is considered lineage. and on a 10th gen bootleg of shows that I recorded, no less...)
[...]
Freezer - I think you just perfectly described the whole "Catch-22" of trading in the days before wideband internet. If I am not a taper, what could I possibly offer in a trade that would interest you? All I would have had was some unknown gen cassettes (just a couple marked "first gen", but passed on to me by a tired trader, so not verified). I agree the torrenting community has some big flaws, and half of the stuff out there is probably junk, but my ears don't lie to me, and there are plenty of other ears out there. At least all the music is coming out, even if it is in these many different "versions".

Eventually we will sort this mess out and get down to best sources. Etree has that pretty much down pat, and the Zappa and Dylan communities are getting it together. Same with Phish, Pearl Jam, and probably other bands I may not follow much. That is why I am so obsessed with this "versioning" thing, it is the only way to sort out the mess, and it will take years, but it will get done if we provide reliable people with the right tools to do it, like online show information, with versioning and st5/ffp's, etc.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #35  
Old 2005-08-10, 03:42 AM
freezer's Avatar
freezer freezer is offline
TTD VIP
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: in your worst nightmare
Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
Well my thanks were not entirely misplaced. Despite the obvious flaws in the lineage (what color socks were you wearing?), your personal verification is now appended to my infofile. You ARE the REAL freezer, right?
Orange sox, standard for the times. I had 5 pair.

Yes I am the real Mr. Freezer, got Maytag frost-free stamped on my ass.


Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
half of the stuff out there is probably junk, but my ears don't lie to me, and there are plenty of other ears out there. At least all the music is coming out, even if it is in these many different "versions".

Eventually we will sort this mess out and get down to best sources. Etree has that pretty much down pat, and the Zappa and Dylan communities are getting it together. Same with Phish, Pearl Jam, and probably other bands I may not follow much. That is why I am so obsessed with this "versioning" thing, it is the only way to sort out the mess, and it will take years, but it will get done if we provide reliable people with the right tools to do it, like online show information, with versioning and st5/ffp's, etc.

Your ears don't lie to you that half the stuff out there is junk?

Now that is a new one on me.... Lineage>junk.

I don't see a lot of folks downloading a show with that lineage, do you?

The Zappa community is plauged by a giant troll who has been infecting it for years with faulty lineage and mp3s for years. (Anybody wanna make a guess here who I'm referring to?) And the mess he created will be rolling downhill for years to come. And there are collectors who like the mp3 files he torrented. And who will argue with you and flame you over it.

The Dylan community bickers amongst itself over easily verified lineage by thriving on bootlegs and sites which tout bootlegs over easy to find low gen tapes. (5/3/76 late show for instance, its only been in the last six months that most of the Dylanites even heard that there were 2 shows on the evening and that the 5/3/76 early show exists as an audience recording.)

You are going to have a god-awful time trying to sort this stuff out, simply because of "good traders" or "good seeders" who delight in clouding the waters around certain bands and certain recordings.

Without naming the names, there are specific sites whose clientele traffic in bogus lineage and pedigree as coin of the realm. Bet you 10 cents you can name a few.........at least one in particular.......won't take too much presence of mind to do so......

I agree, its always been rooted in the fan vs. archivist arguement, as AAR.oner suggests.

However, like I said, I'm much more interested in getting UNCIRCULATED shows out than I am in flogging a dead horse by dragging out a 30+ year old master and circulating another version.

When I resurfaced a few years ago, it was because I'd noticed a small group of Led Zeppelin collectors bragging on a certain Yahoo trade group site about just how easy it was to find "master clones" and they were using the 2/28/75 Baton Rouge Led Zeppelin show as their example. Well, I had made that particular master, it had been in storage for 15 years, so I was 100% positive there was no way it had ever been digitally converted from the master tapes. When I remarked on this, one of those so-called "good traders" replied that all I had to do was give him the info on what mics and recorder I'd used so he could make his lineage look better. He was more interested in making his list look better than he was in circulating a true low gen tape. He already had a copy of the tape, now he could just claim he had something he didn't because he would have better lineage.

That's the tip of the iceberg you are attempting to climb. But I wish you all the best in your quest, Admiral Byrd.........

Go back a few postings on this thread and see what kind of veiled remarks were made about getting upgrades, so bootleggers would find it harder to sell their wares.

That fellow wasn't even interested in discussing how to define torrent files or keep proper lineage. He was interested in upgrading his collection. He wasn't interested in getting UNCIRCULATED shows into the trade pool, he didn't even ask what shows I was trying to offer. His whole message was about getting better copies of what is already out there. (I did find someone else to take me up on getting some Brass Band shows from 8/6/05 into circulation.)

Do I have a solution to the problem of keeping better lineage with the files? No, but I can do what I've done since I resurfaced. Continue to supply UNCIRCULATED shows only. And leave the stuff that's been bootlegged remain in unverifiable generational form. Yes 12/1/74, PF 4/28/77, LZ 2/28/75, Rolling Stones 6/1/75, Kiss 7/16/74.........they're out there. They're not hoarded. They're just not available as low gen recordings. But the shows are available.

Evens the playing field somewhat. Nobody has a low gen of these.

Let's move on to some new shows. With proper lineage. That's my preference.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #36  
Old 2005-08-10, 03:55 AM
freezer's Avatar
freezer freezer is offline
TTD VIP
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: in your worst nightmare
Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
Freezer - I think you just perfectly described the whole "Catch-22" of trading in the days before wideband internet. If I am not a taper, what could I possibly offer in a trade that would interest you? All I would have had was some unknown gen cassettes (just a couple marked "first gen", but passed on to me by a tired trader, so not verified).
Then go out and tape something.

Why do you want to play with the big boys if you don't want to grow up?

How do you think the hobby started?
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #37  
Old 2005-08-10, 04:13 AM
jcrab66's Avatar
jcrab66 jcrab66 is offline
We all walk the Long Road....
75.63 GB/483.42 GB/6.39
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Planet Bootleg
Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
Then go out and tape something.
now theres an interesting concept.......
__________________
If you want to see a damn good live show check out THIS band.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #38  
Old 2005-08-10, 05:07 AM
guygee's Avatar
guygee guygee is offline
Non Serviam
1.17 TB/2.93 TB/2.50
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Astro Intergalactic Infinity
Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
Then go out and tape something.

Why do you want to play with the big boys if you don't want to grow up?

How do you think the hobby started?
I'm not going to argue your point, but not all of us have a lot of free time, we have careers, family, plus not a lot of good bands make it out to Melbourne FL near where I live. Add to that, I am not much interested in most new shows, my tastes tend towards older shows. I should have taped the Leo Kottke show I went to a few months ago, but I was just slow on the draw, and ended up with really crappy seats. Also, not everyone can afford the expensive equipment, and some concert ticket prices these days are outrageous.

I imagine some tapers had rich relatives and came into money, and maybe some live in attics and survive on catfood, and some in between. It just not the life I "fell into". Maybe these are all just poor excuses, you guys are probably right...

But at least give collectors their due. Master tapes get ruined, stolen, your house burns down, you die...lucky some collectors saved a copy.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #39  
Old 2005-08-10, 06:07 AM
guygee's Avatar
guygee guygee is offline
Non Serviam
1.17 TB/2.93 TB/2.50
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Astro Intergalactic Infinity
Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
Your ears don't lie to you that half the stuff out there is junk?

Now that is a new one on me.... Lineage>junk.

I don't see a lot of folks downloading a show with that lineage, do you?
For shows released without proper (or dubious) lineage, we need to resort to other means. The basic plan is simple: line up two versions and listen side-by-side. Maybe do a spectrographic analysis if they are close, to look for frequency content. Then decide "Source A is better than Source B". Others will do the same, a consensus will form. People with "tin ears" will out themselves. Rinse, lather, repeat. Though this dialectic approach we can find the best available sources. Like Dankseeds, I hope we can find people with golden ears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
The Zappa community is plauged by a giant troll who has been infecting it for years with faulty lineage and mp3s for years. (Anybody wanna make a guess here who I'm referring to?) And the mess he created will be rolling downhill for years to come. And there are collectors who like the mp3 files he torrented. And who will argue with you and flame you over it.
It is Mastertroll now, if you please. I think zappateers already has some of this sorted out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
The Dylan community bickers amongst itself over easily verified lineage by thriving on bootlegs and sites which tout bootlegs over easy to find low gen tapes. (5/3/76 late show for instance, its only been in the last six months that most of the Dylanites even heard that there were 2 shows on the evening and that the 5/3/76 early show exists as an audience recording.)
Like I have said somewhere else in technobabble, I do not understand this reverence for "Silver CDs", unless it is compared to a CDx rip of a "Silver CD"

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
[...]
That's the tip of the iceberg you are attempting to climb. But I wish you all the best in your quest, Admiral Byrd.........

Go back a few postings on this thread and see what kind of veiled remarks were made about getting upgrades, so bootleggers would find it harder to sell their wares.

That fellow wasn't even interested in discussing how to define torrent files or keep proper lineage. He was interested in upgrading his collection. He wasn't interested in getting UNCIRCULATED shows into the trade pool, he didn't even ask what shows I was trying to offer. His whole message was about getting better copies of what is already out there. (I did find someone else to take me up on getting some Brass Band shows from 8/6/05 into circulation.)
All I can do, if anything, is help provide suggestions, and maybe help build some software tools, to enable like-minded people to work towards the task of organizing and sorting through music with the goal of finding the best sources. Sure, most people won't be interested, but we just need some critical mass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
Do I have a solution to the problem of keeping better lineage with the files? No, but I can do what I've done since I resurfaced. Continue to supply UNCIRCULATED shows only. And leave the stuff that's been bootlegged remain in unverifiable generational form. Yes 12/1/74, PF 4/28/77, LZ 2/28/75, Rolling Stones 6/1/75, Kiss 7/16/74.........they're out there. They're not hoarded. They're just not available as low gen recordings. But the shows are available.

Evens the playing field somewhat. Nobody has a low gen of these.

Let's move on to some new shows. With proper lineage. That's my preference.
I can only thank you greatly for your efforts past and present.

Last edited by guygee; 2005-08-10 at 06:13 AM.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #40  
Old 2005-08-10, 09:33 AM
freezer's Avatar
freezer freezer is offline
TTD VIP
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: in your worst nightmare
Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
I'm not going to argue your point, but not all of us have a lot of free time, we have careers, family, plus not a lot of good bands make it out to Melbourne FL near where I live. Add to that, I am not much interested in most new shows, my tastes tend towards older shows. I should have taped the Leo Kottke show I went to a few months ago, but I was just slow on the draw, and ended up with really crappy seats. Also, not everyone can afford the expensive equipment, and some concert ticket prices these days are outrageous.

I imagine some tapers had rich relatives and came into money, and maybe some live in attics and survive on catfood, and some in between. It just not the life I "fell into". Maybe these are all just poor excuses, you guys are probably right...

But at least give collectors their due. Master tapes get ruined, stolen, your house burns down, you die...lucky some collectors saved a copy.

Do you hear that? It's the sound of the world's smallest violin playing "My Heart Bleeds For You".............

You've smelled up this discussion with some absolutely poor excuses indeed.

Try this instead:
Tape something off the FM, sneak in that pocket notebook, Mr. Career-Man, shut up and do something about saving some shows for the next generation of "collectors" instead of patting yourself on the back today.


"But at least give collectors their due. Master tapes get ruined, stolen, your house burns down, you die...lucky some collectors saved a copy."

What bullshit! What the hell do I care what you 'saved'? I did not record any shows solely for you to add to your archives, and I could give a rat's ass what part of my collection survives after I die...

guygee, please take this to heart, and I mean this sincerely, ".......and the horse you rode in on......"

Cat food....

guygee, you surprise me. With all of the intelligent replies you've made, with all of the positive remarks you postulated, to get this far into the discussion and then to crap out as you've just done.....You need to wake up and smell yourself.

Cat food, indeed.

And you, Mr. guygee, is your 'career' in "advanced handtruck" maybe?


Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
People with "tin ears" will out themselves. Rinse, lather, repeat.
Wash up bud, you just outed yourself for what you really are.

Man, you are going to break your arm patting yourself on the back...


Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
All I can do, if anything, is help provide suggestions
Well, guy, that's a relief.

And here I thought you really had something concrete to contribute.

Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #41  
Old 2005-08-10, 11:07 AM
guygee's Avatar
guygee guygee is offline
Non Serviam
1.17 TB/2.93 TB/2.50
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Astro Intergalactic Infinity
Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
"But at least give collectors their due. Master tapes get ruined, stolen, your house burns down, you die...lucky some collectors saved a copy."

What bullshit! What the hell do I care what you 'saved'? I did not record any shows solely for you to add to your archives, and I could give a rat's ass what part of my collection survives after I die...

guygee, please take this to heart, and I mean this sincerely, ".......and the horse you rode in on......"
Hey, not everyone can be a "superstar" taper from the 70's!

Anyways, what motivates you to seed your tapes at all? Why bother? After all, you can listen to them yourself whenever you want, right?

I did like your collection of "Black Napkins", but I really do not know if there is anything else in your collection I would want. I haven't looked at your list. So I wasn't referring to "me" collecting your shows, but to the general collecting pool. You know, the stuff that will survive after you die? Your life's work? You don't care? I guess you and I just look at things differently.

As to what I can contribute beyond "suggestions", it depends on what the folks who run Trader's Den think of my suggestions. Do they want to implement them in some form? If so, maybe I could help. If not, end of discussion.

Last edited by guygee; 2005-08-10 at 11:12 AM.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #42  
Old 2005-08-10, 11:51 AM
freezer's Avatar
freezer freezer is offline
TTD VIP
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: in your worst nightmare
Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

I sincerely doubt that's its the end of the discussion.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #43  
Old 2005-08-10, 12:17 PM
freezer's Avatar
freezer freezer is offline
TTD VIP
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: in your worst nightmare
Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
Hey, not everyone can be a "superstar" taper from the 70's!

Anyways, what motivates you to seed your tapes at all? Why bother? After all, you can listen to them yourself whenever you want, right?

I did like your collection of "Black Napkins", but I really do not know if there is anything else in your collection I would want. I haven't looked at your list. So I wasn't referring to "me" collecting your shows, but to the general collecting pool. You know, the stuff that will survive after you die? Your life's work? You don't care? I guess you and I just look at things differently.

As to what I can contribute beyond "suggestions", it depends on what the folks who run Trader's Den think of my suggestions. Do they want to implement them in some form? If so, maybe I could help. If not, end of discussion.
guygee....

Your delusions are showing.

I speak from a perspective of history in the collector's world, you speak like a computer programmer.........

What motivates you to want collectors to follow your 'suggestions', hmmm????

My motivations are part of my inner demons and I very rarely "release" anything you want, so hopefully, we will not have to cross paths again.

As for being a superstar, far from it. I never consider anything like that.

You haven't looked at my list because you weren't invited to do so.

Who told you you deserve to have that right? I haven't seen your list, but I haven't felt the need to do that either. What do you wanna bet that you have shows I recorded on your list? Maybe with bogus lineage?

"My life's work?" again I say to you, "......... and the horse you rode in on....."

To try to compartmentalize someone who has lived longer than you and done more for YOUR hobby than you are even willing to do smacks of immaturity on you part.

However I did notice in this very thread that another, much younger and very prolific taper telling you the same thing; go record some shows yourself.


Then your perspective will carry some weight; instead of trying to scale Mount Olympus with your hands full of 'gimme' and your mouth full of 'much obliged'......

As far as the mods and general populace here at TTD go, I expect you'll get the same reaction you've gotten already. Maybe 6 people care, and 1000 couldn't give a good goddam. (As long as they get the show, lineage be damned.)

Been there, done that........
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #44  
Old 2005-08-10, 12:29 PM
jcrab66's Avatar
jcrab66 jcrab66 is offline
We all walk the Long Road....
75.63 GB/483.42 GB/6.39
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Planet Bootleg
Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
I'm not going to argue your point, but not all of us have a lot of free time, we have careers, family, plus not a lot of good bands make it out to Melbourne FL near where I live.
i would have to call bullshit on this stupidity. A. I have a career B. I have a family C. I live someplace far more removed from anyplace bands frequently roll through yet still manage to tape an average of 4 shows a month. Melbourne is not far from Orlando where just about everyone rolls through and if they dont play there go another hour over to Tampa and they will be there. It doesnt take all that much money, which shouldnt be much of a problem anyway for a "career" man such as yourself. As freezer said you could always do some FM's from the comfort of your happy little home while sitting around the table with the family or better yet you could take a few extra minutes to send an email to some jocks at the radio station and see if you cant get a Pre FM copy of the show. Do i really need to remind you of the old "excuses are like assholes" saying?
__________________
If you want to see a damn good live show check out THIS band.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #45  
Old 2005-08-10, 12:34 PM
jcrab66's Avatar
jcrab66 jcrab66 is offline
We all walk the Long Road....
75.63 GB/483.42 GB/6.39
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Planet Bootleg
Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer



However I did notice in this very thread that another, much younger and very prolific taper telling you the same thing; go record some shows yourself.
heh, I doubt I am that much younger than you brother but I appreciate the kind words..
__________________
If you want to see a damn good live show check out THIS band.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
Reply

The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble

Similar Threads
Thread Forum Replies Last Post
video-ts-folders help? - shepstar123 Technobabble 1 2009-03-30 06:30 PM
menu ts folders - gigi mcgee Technobabble 2 2008-02-05 01:43 PM
Two shows (folders) on one DVD in Nero? - liberdad Technobabble 2 2006-05-17 11:05 AM
Naming standards - oldbrokentapes Technobabble 15 2004-11-29 12:57 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forums


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:18 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - , TheTradersDen.org - All Rights Reserved - Hosted at QuickPacket
no new posts