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  #16  
Old 2005-08-09, 11:21 AM
ffooky ffooky is offline
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

I've always presumed the "f" was there because otherwise you'd have a folder with a file extension.
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  #17  
Old 2005-08-09, 11:22 AM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

i like the flac16 or flac24 idea...however what then for 44.1kHz and 48kHz [and even 96kHz]...flac16_441 and flac24_48?

i guess my real issue is: how much info is *too much* in regards to a folder name? its all in the info text afterall...
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  #18  
Old 2005-08-09, 12:18 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAR.oner
i guess my real issue is: how much info is *too much* in regards to a folder name? its all in the info text afterall...
Probably just enough so that others reading the folder name can recognize what the show is. This whould include some type of "version" ID, since the same show can exist in many versions, even if taped by the same taper. Why else would Trader's Den care so much about the difference between "from silver" and "cdrx"? Many people don't know their burner's offsets, and at best most only know the combined offset. So if you go audio->audio, the combined offset needs to be used, but if you go audio-> lossless compressed, you nead the read offset only. With my last drive, it was easy to find the combined offset by using the "compare waves" feature in EAC, but there are infinite linear combinations of the read and write offsets that can produce the same combined offset. The only way I could think of finding out my read offset was by trial and error, comparing md5's on successive burns. How many people go through that effort? So digital pollution is a definite problem, and versioning is necessary. (This is the reason everyone should always archive their audio and video showas on "Data" CDs or "Data" DVDs, then burn seperate to listen/watch).

There may be many versions of the same show out there, and we can't give them all the same folder name. That is why I posted on this topic at all, to try and get some consensus on how to do this.

One problem with using the torrent site/thread number ID is that the original seeder doesn't know what will be assigned until they seed, so they can't use it to ID their show, and everyone else would have to add it. It would be a nice feature of the tracker if some unique ID could be tacked onto the folder name, to forever "stamp" that torrent as being "version x downloaded from site y".

etree has versioning, zappateers has some form of it, and I've seen some people using some other versioning system (in some info files i've seen something like "please use LLB #715 to identify this show", I can't remember if it is LLB(?) or something else, I need to look that up again and look into it further).

Tapers don't have to worry about it, if they only listen to their own Master shows or only trade first gen with their taper friends, right? But if they trade freely, then they should be concerned too! With their special knowledge and the experience with music quality they "should" have gained by taping, I would think that a "good" taper would be most concerned of all.
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  #19  
Old 2005-08-09, 01:21 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
............There may be many versions of the same show out there, and we can't give them all the same folder name. That is why I posted on this topic at all, to try and get some consensus on how to do this.

One problem with using the torrent site/thread number ID is that the original seeder doesn't know what will be assigned until they seed, so they can't use it to ID their show, and everyone else would have to add it. It would be a nice feature of the tracker if some unique ID could be tacked onto the folder name, to forever "stamp" that torrent as being "version x downloaded from site y".

etree has versioning, zappateers has some form of it, and I've seen some people using some other versioning system (in some info files i've seen something like "please use LLB #715 to identify this show", I can't remember if it is LLB(?) or something else, I need to look that up again and look into it further).

Tapers don't have to worry about it, if they only listen to their own Master shows or only trade first gen with their taper friends, right? But if they trade freely, then they should be concerned too! With their special knowledge and the experience with music quality they "should" have gained by taping, I would think that a "good" taper would be most concerned of all.

Concerned???




As a taper who started in the 60's, the one thing I learned many years ago is that once a tape has left my hands, it doesn't matter what my wishes or concerns are.

Once a tape has left a taper's hands, it's in "public domain" now.


And "public domain" is what causes there to be the "many versions" (especially of the same recording) that is mentioned in the above posting.

These "many versions" now run the gamut from torrents posted by "good seeders" trying to be meticulous with torrent details (as seen in this thread) all the way to the type of collecting mentality that values quantity over quality and allows for falsifying lineage/pedigree (quite prevalent on a few torrent sites).

I will be following this discussion with great interest.

"Many versions" -- indeed...
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  #20  
Old 2005-08-09, 06:01 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
Concerned???



As a taper who started in the 60's, the one thing I learned many years ago is that once a tape has left my hands, it doesn't matter what my wishes or concerns are.

Once a tape has left a taper's hands, it's in "public domain" now.
Freezer - What I meant was if a taper "trades freely", outside of a small trusted circle, then he should be concerned with the quality of what he gets back in trades, and he should appreciate good trading practices.

I've downloaded a show or two from you and I know you are a great taper, if I forgot to thank you then I am thanking you now. I think the last one was that torrent with several versions of "Black Napkins" that you released, I really enjoy that.
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  #21  
Old 2005-08-09, 06:15 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by ffooky
I've always presumed the "f" was there because otherwise you'd have a folder with a file extension.
that too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAR.oner
i like the flac16 or flac24 idea...however what then for 44.1kHz and 48kHz [and even 96kHz]...flac16_441 and flac24_48?

i guess my real issue is: how much info is *too much* in regards to a folder name? its all in the info text afterall...
I generally try to imitate the best naming practices I see on shows out there. When I started out I didn't like the etree format much at all, but now I've fully jumped on board with that. I also like tagged FLACs so that I can see the song names in my playa.

I haven't seen anybody using flac16_441 etc... I really like having 16bit 44.1kHz audio all the time, so I put the "16" to avoid confusion with 24bit. As for different sampling rates... I dunno, kind of an inconvenience for ppl who want to burn a disc to listen to in their car or whatever. But that will eventually change, so its worth archiving stuff with "non-standard" sample rates... altho I think these sets are usually created by accident on the part of the author.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
Probably just enough so that others reading the folder name can recognize what the show is. This whould include some type of "version" ID, since the same show can exist in many versions, even if taped by the same taper. Why else would Trader's Den care so much about the difference between "from silver" and "cdrx"? Many people don't know their burner's offsets, and at best most only know the combined offset. So if you go audio->audio, the combined offset needs to be used, but if you go audio-> lossless compressed, you nead the read offset only. With my last drive, it was easy to find the combined offset by using the "compare waves" feature in EAC, but there are infinite linear combinations of the read and write offsets that can produce the same combined offset. The only way I could think of finding out my read offset was by trial and error, comparing md5's on successive burns. How many people go through that effort? So digital pollution is a definite problem, and versioning is necessary. (This is the reason everyone should always archive their audio and video showas on "Data" CDs or "Data" DVDs, then burn seperate to listen/watch).

There may be many versions of the same show out there, and we can't give them all the same folder name. That is why I posted on this topic at all, to try and get some consensus on how to do this.

One problem with using the torrent site/thread number ID is that the original seeder doesn't know what will be assigned until they seed, so they can't use it to ID their show, and everyone else would have to add it. It would be a nice feature of the tracker if some unique ID could be tacked onto the folder name, to forever "stamp" that torrent as being "version x downloaded from site y".

etree has versioning, zappateers has some form of it, and I've seen some people using some other versioning system (in some info files i've seen something like "please use LLB #715 to identify this show", I can't remember if it is LLB(?) or something else, I need to look that up again and look into it further).

Tapers don't have to worry about it, if they only listen to their own Master shows or only trade first gen with their taper friends, right? But if they trade freely, then they should be concerned too! With their special knowledge and the experience with music quality they "should" have gained by taping, I would think that a "good" taper would be most concerned of all.
this is an interesting direction for the thread... when I know there's multiple versions I try to put something like "somebandYYYY-MM-DD-extrainfo.flac16" for the folder and "somebandYYYY-MM-DD-extrainfo-t01.flac" etc for the tracks. I try to keep the extra info as short as possible. There doesn't seem to be any standard for this... ppl will put CSB in there or something but with some shows there could be two CSB sources. Also numbering can get kind of weird unless its a very popular band like Nirvana where they have a page like livenirvana.com that is dedicated to keeping track of all this stuff.

I just seeded a pumpkins show with two sources from different tapers if anybody wants to see an example of how I prefer to name my shows and/or make any suggestions (which I'm open to) on how to do it better. I also tagged all the files with foobar2k, something I always like to do for myself that not too many seeders bother with. Of course, this is not the only way to do it folks, just the best system I've come up with at this point in time...
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...ad.php?t=10370
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  #22  
Old 2005-08-09, 06:21 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
I just seeded a pumpkins show with
Pumpkin Seeds. mmmmmm.
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  #23  
Old 2005-08-09, 06:45 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
Also numbering can get kind of weird unless its a very popular band like Nirvana where they have a page like livenirvana.com that is dedicated to keeping track of all this stuff.
When I was involved in STG I agitated for the "Old Torrents" page (whatever we called it) to be turned into just such an archive site. The info files were there, the torrents were numbered, all we had to do was to take up a collection for md5's and ffp's and it could have been turned into a database for shows torrented on STG, a reference point for reseeds in the future. I was unable to generate much enthusiasm at the higher levels for this idea, and sadly it was not to be.

There is still a need for such a reference site, like a db.etree.org, but for the wider torrenting community. Then, a numbering scheme for identifying show versions would work out. Any plans on Trader's Den to go in this direction?
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  #24  
Old 2005-08-09, 07:01 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Hey Guy, I think this is an interesting idea, however I can't even get some people to use standards in naming files, let alone folders! And, I don't know if people could agree on folder naming conventions. I mean, I *like* the .shnf or flacf or apef on the end.
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  #25  
Old 2005-08-09, 07:07 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
When I was involved in STG I agitated for the "Old Torrents" page (whatever we called it) to be turned into just such an archive site. The info files were there, the torrents were numbered, all we had to do was to take up a collection for md5's and ffp's and it could have been turned into a database for shows torrented on STG, a reference point for reseeds in the future. I was unable to generate much enthusiasm at the higher levels for this idea, and sadly it was not to be.

There is still a need for such a reference site, like a db.etree.org, but for the wider torrenting community. Then, a numbering scheme for identifying show versions would work out. Any plans on Trader's Den to go in this direction?
Damn, are you Stephen in disguise (RainDawg here, or sol4578 on STG)? He has a similar idea for here. We just need some programmers to work on it. I'm the only one currently programming here and I always seem to have my hands full with other projects and so he and I have never figured out exactly how we want that to work. I'd love your ideas on it. I can pass them on to Stephen and see what he thinks.
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  #26  
Old 2005-08-09, 07:31 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
Freezer - What I meant was if a taper "trades freely", outside of a small trusted circle, then he should be concerned with the quality of what he gets back in trades, and he should appreciate good trading practices.
Since I've been a member of this site, I have not been offered anything resembling a trade.

I have had demands made of me and I have been called a hoarder while the shows in question are available (just not from me) and I have supplied other recordings to collectors in order to circulate, but "TRADE"???

What means that word, Kemosabe???

And as far as receiving the same quality as I'd sent out, I found that unless you trade solely within a small circle of tapers, then it's "Caveat Emptor" all the way, baby. ( I've seen on a certain torrent site where the phrase, "sounds good" is considered lineage. and on a 10th gen bootleg of shows that I recorded, no less...)

However, your newest comment opens a different can o' worms, doesn't it?

Once the recording is past that small circle, how do you verify lineage? How can you be absolutely and positively sure that the lineage is correct???

Quite simply, it's virtually impossible.

Case in point: I recorded a Pink Floyd show on 4/28/77 in Baton Rouge. I traded one copy in 1977 (from my safety copy) to someone who traded it once. That's 3G at the least. However, that recording has just popped up in the PF low gen trading circles with a bogus lineage. How do I know that? I've seen it listed variously as a master clone to a 2nd generation cassette. (I've also had someone I trust send out e-mails to some of these low gen collectors who usually answer, "well, my 'un-named' friend told the so." )

This is how bogus lineage starts to circulate.

I saw the same thing happen with the 12/1/74 Yes concert I recorded in Baton Rouge.

I see it's also being traded as a master "series" -- whatever that means.

Again, bogus lineage. (I haven't listened to the master tape in 27 years. How could someone get a master "series" without getting a copy of the master?)

So should I waste my time contacting anyone to set them straight?

Why bother...the show is out there, it's in "public domain".

Pink Floyd 4/28/77 & Yes 12/1/74 - Caveat Emptor, baby if you're looking for a master copy. BUT you can get a copy...nobody's hoarding these shows...you just won't be getting a verifiable low gen recording.

I did my job, the shows have been circulating for over 25 years.

(However, I do have a couple of shows I recorded last week in the French Quarter in N'Awlins that I'd like to get out. Anybody want to spread some genuine New Orleans shows from master recordings? PM me and let me get these discs out to somebody who will promise to share them. THESE shows are uncirculating.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
I've downloaded a show or two from you and I know you are a great taper, if I forgot to thank you then I am thanking you now. I think the last one was that torrent with several versions of "Black Napkins" that you released, I really enjoy that.
With all due respect, I appreciate your vote of thanks for the assorted 'Black Napkins' .....BUT - you must have me mixed up with somebody else. I have never uploaded anything. I have supplied recordings to others to be seeded, but never been involved in an actual torrent other than to comment on it or the lineage.

However here's a quote, sent to me in a PM by a friend I met on this site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ???????
In the last year I, and others, have witnessed a lot more people who seem to expect something for nothing. Why is it when someone posts a review of a new release they have received the first thing out of someone's mouth is "when's the torrent?" I find that disrespectful. I bring it up now because I now see it more often than I see "can we work out a trade?"

Remember trades, or at least writing someone asking what can be worked out to obtain a copy? Not everyone is into this torrent scene, and right now a bit of a backlash is starting to manifest. I rarely talk publicly about my projects anymore because of the subsequent PMs asking if/when I'm going to torrent them.

I suppose the broadband internet culture has brought this on, and I don't expect it to go away. But let's be a bit more respectful around here and cool it with the "gimme" attitude. Don't make torrenting more of a chore than a desire to share.
Anyone know who originally wrote this quote???


Last edited by freezer; 2005-08-09 at 07:39 PM. Reason: misspellings
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  #27  
Old 2005-08-09, 08:48 PM
wk1 wk1 is offline
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Lightbulb Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

i don't understand alot about what is bothering any original tapers. bootlegs were around alot longer than bit torrents. bootlegs are going to be around untill there are no people left on earth. to think about being the bootleg police is the same kind of mission the usa took on in viet nam and iraq... you ain't gonna win.
holding out on making new torrents of shows that are currently available to purchase as bootlegs is like buying the guns for the enemy. i'm sorry but i cannont see this any other way. if you are concerned with your recordings getting sold, then create a new torrent. this is the only way i can see as a way of fighting the bootlegers (or send it to somone who will IE: the firm new orleans 1986, i sent it to a fellow den trader, and now it's out there, along with whatever bootleg is for sale i had only heard about).
people have done hard time in this country for selling bootlegs, music, movies. have any of the original tapers 'ratted out' any of the salesmen who are selling these recordings of concern?
why not dangle a carrot show (a fake live show) , get a bootleger to take the bait, then rat him out the the riaa!
this is my biggest concern. if they say the safest place for a criminal to hide is at the police station, where is the safest place for the bootlegger to hide?
no my friendly tapers who are concerned about your recordings ending up as bootlegs, i don't see your point. the more rare a show is , the more price the bootlegger will ask and get it. as long as you don't allow for any of these shows to see there way thru the bit torrent system, then you can bet your sweet ass that the bootleg of said show will continue to be sold.
that's life, if it aint one thing, it's anohter. but the only way to beat the bootleggers is to get as many copies out there as possible. i really really don't understand you guys sitting there, looking at a bootleg for sale, saying to yourself what? 'i'll show them, i'll never dig that original tape up ever' and what do you accomplish by doing so? your keeping the bootlegger in business... oipen up your eyes and see the big picture... not just you sitting in a room with some magazine open looking at some ad for 'bootlegs for sale' if you don't like it (bootlegging) then do something about it... make the bootleg worthless, your the only person that can do that. the person buying the unknown gen bootleg would not have had to do that if a better trade copy existed or a torrent was available
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  #28  
Old 2005-08-09, 10:37 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

another 2 cents...

i agree with everyone [and i ain't the just-to-be-agreeable type]. but we are in a "new era" folks. computers & checksums & all are *very*different from the days of cassette trading as freezer was talking about. i believe that recordings *being made currently*, enjoy a benefit that the 60s, 70s and 80s tapers didn't have. CHECKSUMS. for the recordings made back in yer days freezer, i have no idea how we deal with the various "versions" of a show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guygee
(This is the reason everyone should always archive their audio and video showas on "Data" CDs or "Data" DVDs, then burn seperate to listen/watch).
i couldn't agree with that more...you can go thru a few recent threads and see that that's what i'm always pushing for...lhowever, there are other collectors/traders/tapers who don't see it as much of an issue. I call it the "archivist vs fan" debate. neither are wrong, we just approach from a different viewpoint. i work in film/audio, so "specifics" are integral to my nature. some people just like watching/listening to a good show.

everything in its due time...personally, i think getting people to trade in data format with md5s is far more important than what is in a folder's name--at this current moment in the trading community atleast....then we tackle the details.

personally, i'm just tired of getting shows in either CD Audio format or DVD's in DVD-Video format...no checksums, no info...it sucks but...oh well i haven't offered any resolve with this, but thats just my view on this topic--as a fan, a collector, an archivist, and a taper.
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  #29  
Old 2005-08-09, 11:57 PM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
[...]
With all due respect, I appreciate your vote of thanks for the assorted 'Black Napkins' .....BUT - you must have me mixed up with somebody else. I have never uploaded anything. I have supplied recordings to others to be seeded, but never been involved in an actual torrent other than to comment on it or the lineage.
[...]
Well that only verifies what you are saying in your post above the part I quoted. I needed to read the info file more closely, so partly my mistake.

What I was thanking you for was listed as:

Frank Zappa
Various Dates, Various Locations
Freezer's Choice #21 - The Zappa Tapes

The seeder didn't bother to list his handle in the info file, and the torrent info is deleted from the site (This is what I'm talkin' about!). Did you have a series called "Freezer's Choice #NN?

At least there is "credible" lineage listed in this particular infofile:

Unknown Mics and/or recorder > Cass(m) played back on JVC TD-W 209 > JVC XL-R5010 stand alone burner > CDR(1) > EAC (secure, offsets corrected) > FLAC (level 8)

Since it is Cass(m) I'm guessing the seeder doesn't even know you (otherwise Cass(1)), and is marketing his torrent with your name.

There is a user here, ssamadhi97, who occasionally graces our discussions and I am pretty sure is top is top-100-people-in-the-world caliber for spotting lossy sources in audio by studying spectrographs, but even he cannot but only roughly guess generation.

Freezer, I can only hope that you, too, will continue to check in and help us with bogus lineage warnings. It is one thing to be an expert in psycho-acoustics software like ssamadhi97, but you are the taper, you were there, you *know*.

I am not a taper, I was a "cassette(m)" collector at one time, and I have several (many?) shows that don't circulate. I keep waiting for the masters or first gens to come out, but not so far...however, I am determined not to take the stuff to the grave with me, it needs to be released, if not in pristine form, then in some form. Personally, I do not care so much about the people who will download now; rather I am thinking about posterity, several generations in the future and beyond. I can only hope that if I eventually release these recordings they will be distributed as widely as possible, and the shows will find their way to someone who cares enough to archive them and make them available for future generations.

As for lineage, it is a tough battle, and your posts open my eyes to how tough it really is, but I am not waving the white flag just yet, I am going to do my best to get the the bottom of these things.
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  #30  
Old 2005-08-10, 12:06 AM
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Re: Standards for Naming Torrent Folders

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezer
However here's a quote, sent to me in a PM by a friend I met on this site.



Anyone know who originally wrote this quote???

I do.
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