VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]

[Ratt Trader]

How can I get my hands on these 3:

Ratt 1-12-89 Tokyo, Japan 1st
Ratt 12-18-90 Tampa, FL 8mm master
Ratt 7-11-99 Camden, NJ 1st

[lordsmurf]

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

Instead of copying it to vhs, it was copied to 8mm which I think is better than dubbing to vhs.
Ive seen 8mm masters dubbed to vhs as well as 8mm and the 8mms had more detail to them. So it makes total sense to me it was dubbed to 8mm. Also 8mm/hi8 is way easier to track, you dont get all the issues you get with vhs.

VHS or 8mm makes more sense.

Honestly, 8mm, VHS and Betamax are all about the same for quality. You need Super Beta, Betacam, S-VHS or Hi8 to jump up in quality.

8mm/Hi8 doesn't really "track" -- that's both a benefit and a problem. The benefit is when the tape plays perfectly because it was recorded in a perfect deck. However, as with all other analog video recorders, gravity shifts things over time. When 8mm/Hi8 is misaligned, all hell breaks loose -- the tapes become paperweights, unless you can pull out a scope and manually misalign another player to match the badly-made tapes (and good luck with that!) Here's a more technical explanation on 8mm tracking.

[sabkisscrue]

Originally Posted by Ratt Trader

How can I get my hands on these 3:

Ratt 1-12-89 Tokyo, Japan 1st
Ratt 12-18-90 Tampa, FL 8mm master
Ratt 7-11-99 Camden, NJ 1st

Send me a PM and will discuss it.

[Waldo Jeffers]

EPIC Thread...

[sabkisscrue]

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

VHS or 8mm makes more sense.

Honestly, 8mm, VHS and Betamax are all about the same for quality. You need Super Beta, Betacam, S-VHS or Hi8 to jump up in quality.

8mm/Hi8 doesn't really "track"

Thats a good thing then.


-- that's both a benefit and a problem. The benefit is when the tape plays perfectly because it was recorded in a perfect deck. However, as with all other analog video recorders, gravity shifts things over time. When 8mm/Hi8 is misaligned, all hell breaks loose -- the tapes become paperweights, unless you can pull out a scope and manually misalign another player to match the badly-made tapes (and good luck with that!) Here's a more technical explanation on 8mm tracking.

Some recent hi8 transfers ive done the guy who I got the tapes from said that he couldnt get the sound to track on them or they had sound problems.
Now I dont know if its because the tapes he bought were bad or the camera was going out of alignment, but I was able to get the tapes to play and the audio was okay using the trv-740.

Let me just say without showing proof, that there does indeed seem to be some quality differences between a vhs dub and an 8mm dub.
Maybe its because you said it best that 8mm/hi8 tapes dont really need to be tracked. But I have seen both vhs and 8mm dubs from the same masters and the 8mm dubs appear to contain more detail than the vhs dubs, in other words they looked closer to what the master would look like but not exactly what the master would look like.
I can only suggest that maybe 8mm is a better and more reliable format than vhs for dubbing purposes.

[sabkisscrue]

Originally Posted by bigwurock

can you upload some kiss shows here??

Working on it

[AAR.oner]

rest assured sabkiss/deuce this is nothing personal and i'm in no way interested in maligning anyone...i've continually tried to bring this back to the technical, and you continually avoid that and take it to the personal

you said you did post work on yer transfers [color correction, picture/audio restoration, etc], i asked what since yer lineages didn't seem to reflect that, and then you say i'm attacking you?! its all right here in this thread for fuck's sake!!!

i will ask again, because i'm staff here and have every right to ask -- Do you or do you not do any picture/audio restoration, color correction/RGB balance, brightness/contrast, etc? a simple yes or no will do...not a big deal if you don't, you've simply alluded to it before and it seemed to not match the lineage you posted...i'll leave it to the other mods who were interested to ask any other questions they might have as well, maybe you can answer them with a little more maturity and honesty than you have with me





for anyone reading this thread -- we take quality a little more seriously here at TTD than some of the other trading sites, if you post a lossy show or don't have accurate/sufficient lineage, it'll get pulled...if you post official releases, it'll get pulled...if you come to our vine or snail mail forum and steal from other traders, yer gonna get banned and yer name posted everywhere...and yes, if you continually lie or bend truths and then backpedal, someones probly gonna call ya out on it

thats not being attacked, thats gettin called out on yer bs

[retired]

From Post 72

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

Admitted? Are you serious? I do all that actually. But you dont wanna believe that.

to which you then back pedalled...

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

Failed? Are you mad, Guvnah?
No, I never said I did any post-production work.

...and other than "your response is absurd", you never addressed why you do the exact opposite of what your link says:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf post 7

Your capture format won't be the same as your encoded format. You want to minimize quality losses at each stage, so avoid capturing with MPEG2.

[boxedart]

I would also like to see the lineage on the VH Largo show clarified as well. I was the one who brought it up and I find it slighty amusing that when I brought up the 8mm part of the lineage I was told:

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

Well first of all you didnt read the lineage correctly

I repsonded and I restated sabkisscrue's linege as they had listed it and I also posted screengrabs of one of the flaws contained in this new version that is not in the BTB version. And I asked:

Originally Posted by boxedart

On the other hand you could take the time to explain why your "Master Reels (3/4 inch tape) > Master VHS > 1st gen 8mm" source is in worse shape than BTB's "Low Gen. VHS" is.

That question was never answered, nor were my questions about the 8mm step:

So, once again, I made an attempt to explain the lineage - as was posted by sabkisscrue - and also made an attmept to clarify if sabkisscrue was also duece8pro. No direct answer was given but I did bring up the VHT thread in which duece8pro said this new version is:

Originally Posted by duece8pro

...what I think is the best version of Largo 82. Sourced from a 1st gen 8mm copy off a master vhs that came off the reels.

So I questioned the use of "master" and "1st gen" because a dub of a dub in not a "1st gen". I also brought up the fact that the end of the show was missing and that other versions exist with the complete show. In response to that I was responsed to with:

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

...you were wrong about the lineage. After another try, you finally got it right. But this time you managed to twist my words around, even though you said at the beginning of your post you werent gonna do that, you managed to do that by stipulating or insuniating that the lineage is or may not be accurate.

So I again, this time very specifically, stated:

Originally Posted by boxedart

you are the one who is saying this version originated from "Master Reels (3/4 inch tape)", not me. You are the one saying it was dubbed to a "Master VHS", not me. You are the one saying it was dubbed onto 8mm, not me. You are the one implying this is from a second gen dub, not me.

And the response this time was:

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

Well, you have continued to stipulate a great deal about the lineage that it cannot be sourced from the master because the picture contains a flaw or two and that the video is incomplete, by a few mins. I think your stipulations are ludicrous as well as your long, long posts

It needs to be noted at this point other people had posted about the quality and that this new version contained glitches/flaws that were not found in the BTB version, And each one was responded to with a "well, you are wrong" type of answer by sabkisscrue.

And here we are now. Because of the questionable lineage on the VH Largo show and the use of terms such as "master" and "1st Gen" I am now questioning the lineage of all that duece8pro/sabkisscrue has done. Look over their "resume" posted in this thread - how many say "1st"? Based on this discussion and the one on the VH Largo thread, if you believe the lineage than a dub was made onto VHS from the venue masters (A 1st Gen) and than dubbed onto 8mm (A 2nd gen) and than dubbed onto a stand alone DVD recorded (A 3rd Gen if you want to be accurate). The burned DVD was sent to someone else to author and output with "no re-encoding", and it was presented here. However it is important to note that duece8pro/sabkisscrue uses the terms "Master VHS" and "1st Gen 8mm" to describe these, assumedly, 1st and 2nd gen sources. To me that is not an accurate lineage.

If you add onto all of this the various conversations going on there are far more questions that answers now. I read the same thing AAR.oner, and others, have read. Just an overview of this thread so far as it relates to the post-production question:

The VH show:
Lineage according to sabkisscrue:

Master Reels (3/4 inch tape) > Master VHS > 1st gen 8mm >
Sony TRV-740 Digital8 Camera with TBC/DNR > firewire > JVC DRM-100 Dvd Recorder >
XP mode > 2 dvd-r SA Authored with ac3 audio > Reauthored on a DUAL LAYER by Skulljam9 without Re-Encoding

On the topic at hand:

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

The point is, you need an aggressive amount of filtering to clean up vhs chroma and luminance noise. My equipment does the job, period and im willing to prove that.

Originally Posted by awolfoutwest

My preferred method is to capture to avi, spend some time looking at different filter results, then encode with the best processing I can determine for that video. I look at the video through software Vectorscope and Waveform Monitor apps to see how the color ranges conform to broadcast standards, then tweak black level and other proc amp stuff as needed. I wouldn't want to rely on a solely hardware chain because I can't go back and tweak things later.

Originally Posted by boxedart

I understand this is just a hobby and also understand that, when it comes to restoration, there is more to it than just popping a dub of a dub into a camera or VTR, hitting play, and than hitting record on a stand alone DVD burner.

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

Based on the results ive gotten, yes I would say emphatically
it is one of the best if not the best methods to transfer most vhs/svhs tapes.[SNIP]There are different definitions of great that all apply to me and what I do:
1. My upgrades are of importance and significance in the trading community. People enjoy and love them because people like myself search out for this stuff.
2. I do a great job
3. Im someone who has achieved a lot by working hard and putting a lot of effort into
finding low gen upgrades and producing them, therefore I am one of the greats in the entire trading and collecting community.

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

...as you've admitted before, you know or do nothing in regards to color balance & correction, cleaning up the picture or audio, or any sort of post-production whatsoever.

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

Admitted? Are you serious? I do all that actually. But you dont wanna believe that.

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

...according to every show you've u/led here, and the ones i've run across searching real quick, its nothing but a bunch of built-in "processors" on yer deck and camcorder passthroughs...no post production whatsoever...which then begs the question, if yer not lying here & you "do all that actually" -- are you lying on yer lineages?

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

We're not gonna get into minutia.

Originally Posted by boxedart

Oh - and as for the whole post production thing - do you even know what that means? Every time you have "discussed" what you do you say all you do is hit play on one source and hit record on another. You then say you send that stand alone burned DVD out to someone else for "authoring". If anyone is remotely close to doing any post on your work it is the person who is doing the authoring.

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

This is what this thread has come down to, a couple of peoples mentally ill obsession with the minutia as well as every single word or sentence I have to say. You two can carry on and on and on and on for as long as you like, its not gonna change what I do, its not gonna affect what I do, and its not gonna dictate what I do. I will continue to do what I do because I know I am the best at it.

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

you conveniently failed to answer the question about the post-production/restoration work you said yer doing to these transfers, or as you call it "minutia" [first time i've ever heard video restoration referred to as "minor or minute"]...its been brought to my attention that the VBT mods are very much interested in knowing yer answer as well...so do you plan to elaborate on said minutiae?

Originally Posted by boxedart

So if Lordsmurf said to you that post production takes a lot more work than what you are doing you would tell them the same thing?

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

It ranges from hours to days to weeks to months to years -- it really depends on the goals of the project and the source available.

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

No, I never said I did any post-production work. You extracted whatever you wanted out of my response to a question where you asked about multiple things. What is clear to me is you have a vendetta against me. You are asking for answers to immaterial questions that you know the answer to already.

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

you said you did post work on yer transfers [color correction, picture/audio restoration, etc], i asked what since yer lineages didn't seem to reflect that, and then you say i'm attacking you?! its all right here in this thread for fuck's sake!!!

i will ask again, because i'm staff here and have every right to ask -- Do you or do you not do any picture/audio restoration, color correction/RGB balance, brightness/contrast, etc? a simple yes or no will do...not a big deal if you don't, you've simply alluded to it before and it seemed to not match the lineage you posted..

[lordsmurf]

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

Let me just say without showing proof, that there does indeed seem to be some quality differences between a vhs dub and an 8mm dub. Maybe its because you said it best that 8mm/hi8 tapes dont really need to be tracked. But I have seen both vhs and 8mm dubs from the same masters and the 8mm dubs appear to contain more detail than the vhs dubs, in other words they looked closer to what the master would look like but not exactly what the master would look like. I can only suggest that maybe 8mm is a better and more reliable format than vhs for dubbing purposes.

What you've observed mostly comes down to the quality of the tape in use, as well as the quality of the recorders/players in use. You'll come across far more inferior VHS tapes/players/recorders/cameras than you will in the 8mm format --- but that's mostly because it was a near-monopoly by Sony. It was their format, after all. And we all know how much a death-grip Sony keeps on its products.

Originally Posted by retired

...and other than "your response is absurd", you never addressed why you do the exact opposite of what your link says:

avoid capturing with MPEG2.

Depending on about a half-dozen factors (between source and encoding specs), capturing to MPEG-2 can be anywhere from brilliant to bone-headed. All the following considerations have to be made:

• Program streams, transport streams?
• Bit-rate?
• MP@ML, MP@HL, H-12@MP, 422@ML, another one?
• What's the temporal compression like? IBP GOP? IP GOP? I-only GOP? If IBP or IP, what's the length? (i.e., Long or Short?)
• Closed or open?
• Which specs? DVD-Video, pre-defined editing spec or something else? None?
• What's the SNR of the source? (#/% not required, descriptions okay)
• What's the encoding chipset or software encoding engine?
• What about the matrix or discreet cosine values?
• CBR, VBR or CVBR?

In general, amateur devices make poor choices or are very limited, therefore you should avoid MPEG-2. However there are many high-end devices that allow for excellent MPEG capturing/recording.

[boxedart]

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

If you're going to insult me, then I'm going to make you look stupid...

What do you refer to by "MPEG2" exactly?

• Program streams, transport streams?
• MP@ML, MP@HL, H-12@MP, 422@ML, another one?
• What's the temporal compression like? IBP GOP? IP GOP? I-only GOP? If IBP or IP, what's the length? (i.e., Long or Short?)
• Closed or open?
• Which specs? DVD-Video, Sony edit or something else? None?
• What's the SNR of the source? (#/% not required, descriptions okay)
• What's the encoding chipset or software encoding engine?
• What about the matrix or discreet cosine values?
• CBR, VBR or CVBR?

MPEG-2 is a generic description.

Depending on about a half-dozen factors (between source and encoding specs), capturing to MPEG-2 can be anywhere from brilliant to bone-headed.

I'm pretty sure deuce8 could answer all those questions. Can you?

(I'm nice and share my knowledge with others --- but don't piss me off, I fight back.)

Actually, lordsmurf, he was quoting you. In relation to this discussion sabkisscrue/duece8pro maintains that their method is the best out there for doing dubs and restorations. Some of us question that and if you read the threads you can clearly see that. Many of us have stated variations of what you stated, in reguards to dubbing to a stand alone DVD recorder from a source that is old (needs restoration/post production work) - "You want to minimize quality losses at each stage, so avoid capturing with MPEG2." That would mean, based on the discussion here that recording to a JVC DRM-100 Dvd Recorder is not the best thing to do.

So if you think you are making retired look stupid you are mistaken. Again, in your own words, as it relates to this discussion - You want to minimize quality losses at each stage, so avoid capturing with MPEG2.

[lordsmurf]

I realized that a few minutes later, and it's why the post was edited.

That would mean, based on the discussion here that recording to a JVC DRM-100 Dvd Recorder is not the best thing to do.

Again, refer back to the last post, in its final version. The JVC DR-M100 DVD recorder is a higher-end device, and is therefore immune to much of the generic "don't use MPEG-2" warnings. The chispet in that machine not only transfers, but improves the digital version as compared to the analog source. However, it should be noted that good settings must still be selected -- don't pick SP mode, for example. These recorders have been discussed in detail for years now, especially here and here.

[sabkisscrue]

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

rest assured sabkiss/deuce this is nothing personal and i'm in no way interested in maligning anyone...

I think thats dishonest at best. Tell me,
why are you so interested and what are you trying to achieve by questioning me and telling me what I do is wrong when the results speak for themselves (and there is a great deal of them), some of the results which can be found at this very site. So how dare you suggest what ive done is wrong or not the right way. You are absolutely wrong about that.

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

Do you or do you not do any picture/audio restoration, color correction/RGB balance, brightness/contrast, etc?

Im not gonna answer your question with a yes or no. What am I gonna do is say that I take everything into consideration. Color, brightness, black level, chroma, grain, detail, sharpness, etc.

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

if you continually lie or bend truths and then backpedal, someones probly gonna call ya out on it

Here we go with being accused of being a liar (before I was just making grandiose claims) and you wanna sit there and tell me that you arent trying to malign me?
You can think im a liar, all you want.
The proof is in the blood pudding, isnt that what they have in your jolly ol england?

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

"your response is absurd", you never addressed why you do the exact opposite of what your blue god says:

Oh I think every word, every line, and every post that AA, yourself, or box has directed towards me has been absurd.

Originally Posted by retired

you never addressed why you do the exact opposite of what your link says:

Im not doing the exact opposite of what he says or suggests.
Lordsmurf is the biggest advocate of the JVC DRM-100 dvd recorder as well as the JVC 9000 model SVHS decks with TBC/DNR bult in.

Originally Posted by boxedart

I am now questioning the lineage of all that duece8pro/sabkisscrue has done. Look over their "resume" posted in this thread - how many say "1st"?

This is clearly someone who is on the brink of madness.

[lordsmurf]

I think AAR.oner is genuinely interested in the tech, even if he does seem a bit down on you. I can understand his questions, because it can be hard to see improvements in videos, when you've never seen the far-worse source that it came from. I have to constantly remind people that restoring video/audio has a goal of "making it better" and not "making it perfect". This isn't CSI, where magic filters exist. Some people just don't understand until they get a lot more information, with plenty of examples.

His attacks are frustrations with understanding, as far as I can tell. Fairly innocuous.

[sabkisscrue]

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

His attacks are frustrations with understanding, as far as I can tell. Fairly innocuous.

Eh.
I dont know why he needs to understand anything I do, as he hasnt seen anything ive done and I doubt he plans on it. This went from a respectful PM discussion just like you said frustrations with understanding to a nearly 10 page thread about bullshit, to be honest.
I cant win no matter what I say, if I defend myself im accused of being arrogant or narcisstic or making grandiose claims, if I produce a list of what ive done, im accused of being a liar. They wanna humilate me. That is their goal.