Sound volume question

[ReverbReverse]

Hi, i've been asking a few questions here while i started recording a few shows in february and march. I've been trying ever since to work on the files i got, but there' s a problem i don't seem to solve.

I'm using a sony mz-rh 1 recorder, with a core sound binaural microphone and a bass roll-off; the recorder is set as follows : PCM, low sensitivity (for the mic), manual, and i set the volume on whatever the sound setup of the venue allows to record at -12db or slightly above.. so in theory i guess i'm doing things by the book ?

The sound i get is pretty clear, and when i listen to it on the mcd player it's great, provided i push the playing volume up to the max.. but as soon as i have the files transferred to the computer and converted to .wav (i do that, unfortunately, through SonicStage) it becomes obvious the sound is ridiculously, as i have to push everything to the max, and even that way it's not as loud as i would want it to be. Then if i start trying to amplify it (i've been doing that with audacity, and windows movie maker, but as soon as i do that it goes straight into saturation, wayyyy before reaching a sound volume that would be satisfactory.

Is there anything i can do, either while recording, or now to recover these ? I'd be willing to buy some software too, provided it's affordable..

Thank you in advance for any help or advice

[AAR.oner]

i would start by setting yer recording levels so that the peaks hit around -2dB [-12dB is too low]...that should help give you a much more "up front" sounding recording

as for progs, unless you get into multi-tracking and/or pro-level recording & processing, Audacity is really all ya need...fwiw, i use(d) a number of higher-end audio progs, but for live recordings, all i usually ever need is Audacity [normalize/DC offset correction & track splitting]

[Five]

^what he said

SonicStage is not causing the problem... the alternative "wav conversion tool" adds crackles (at least it does on my comp) so stick with Sonic.

Audacity can be used to boost the volume as well as the programs that cost... I think you must be overboosting it. It is better to get the levels right at the show, of course.

[ReverbReverse]

AAR.oner and Five :

Thanks guys, i guess i'll stick to sonic stage and Audacity then.

As to getting the recording levels right while recording, i have absolutely no clue how i could manage that.. i didn't make myself clear earlier : i tried recording pretty much everywhere between -12 db and almost saturated, and it's always way low, at least in comparison to the other recordings i've been downloading so far. Obviously -2 or -4 is a bit louder than -12 or -10, but not to the point the volume of it would be normal.

Someone at a media shop suggested me to actually play the file and have it recorded through the line-in in audacity, and it *does* make it all significantly louder though.. what do you guys think of that ?

[Five]

Originally Posted by ReverbReverse

Someone at a media shop suggested me to actually play the file and have it recorded through the line-in in audacity, and it *does* make it all significantly louder though.. what do you guys think of that ?

you will lose too much sound quality that way. you can turn it up better using audacity and it will be cleaner transferring using sonicstage.

can you post a rapidshare link to a minute-or-two FLAC sample of your "too quiet" audio? if I can hear it and look at it in audacity myself I can help better.

[ReverbReverse]

Originally Posted by Five

can you post a rapidshare link to a minute-or-two FLAC sample of your "too quiet" audio? if I can hear it and look at it in audacity myself I can help better.

Thank you so much for this offer.. i do that later in the day and i get back at you then

[ReverbReverse]

I just did it. It's there. The vocals are pretty low, but that (at least) has nothing to do with the recording - what can i say ? it was recorded at - 4db, transferred with sonicstage, and i cropped the file down to two minutes through audacity and that's it.

..and thank you in advance, again

[stantheman1976]

You've got the levels right. Have you tried running the mics with high sensitivity? Try it out at home and see how it works. It might be that on low sensitivity your mics are getting powered fine, but need a boost still.

[ReverbReverse]

stantheman1976 : Yes, i tried that alright - but then there's no way (even by reducing the sound volume to the lowest level) that the recorder doesn't get into distortion :/

Whaddya mean "i've got the levels right" ?

[diggrd]

Which input are you using, this MD has mic in and line in correct? I would be using the line in as long as the bass roll off you mention is also a battery box like this.



If you are going line in and are sure you are setting a recording volume manually and not using AGC then by the sound of the sample I think you need to get much closer to the source when you record, and try not moving around too much. If you want to increase this volume try hard limiting to -1 or so and boosting by about 18dB

http://diggrdslandofthefree.com/too_quietsample.wav

http://diggrdslandofthefree.com/too_quiet.mp3





Here's a sample of a friends band, Cobalt Blue. I recorded it Friday in a little dive bar using SP-CMC-4U mics into battery box w/ bass rolloff into the MR1

http://diggrdslandofthefree.com/cobaltblue.wav

http://diggrdslandofthefree.com/DFF_0006_001.mp3

[ReverbReverse]

Originally Posted by diggrd

Which input are you using, this MD has mic in and line in correct? I would be using the line in as long as the bass roll off you mention is also a battery box like this.

Yeah, by the looks and the url of the pic, that's pretty much mine. I use the mic in jack, and not the line in, since the recorder won't let me control the volume level, and even with the mic on low sensitivity, it would go on instant distortion.. i really can't get any closer to the source (save for starting to do security for the show, which would really be novel :-s) and i really don't move.

What's strange is that while the recording happens, the levels look fine on the index screen, just beneath distortion or hitting distortion only for brief instants, but then when i'm back home, i get that real low volume. I can edit it through audacity or other (in the meantime i got hooked with magix music studio..), normalize, equalize, amplify etc. but still it's fairly low, in comparison, say, with a "regular" cd..

Where would i find hard limiting or its equivalent in audacity ? If i don't allow clipping, it won't let me amplify it by more than 7 or 8 db.

Thank you for your time and the tips, anyway

[Five]

Originally Posted by ReverbReverse

the recorder won't let me control the volume level

okay now it is all coming clear!

you can control the volume level on the deck. you can only do it when a disc is inserted and you are in rec-pause mode. if you insert a new disc you have to do it again... which is the biggest single drawback of hi-md you should have seen me doing the disc change at the pearl jam show trying to see my non-light-up display on my MZ-NH1 this is something that is good to practice many times at home because time is of the essence.

the other problem is that the manual levels have a value of between 0-30, and it will remember any setting except if it is below 13 it will stay at 13. 8-11 is usually best for recording live shows, so this is another thing that has to be tinkered with everytime you put in a disc. low sensitivity is necessary as well (at least it can remember that).

also, looking at your frequency response it looks like you're still in default hi-sp recording mode. it cuts off abruptly at 19.5kHz (see 2nd-last pic in this thread), which is not something you should see with 44.1/16bit LPCM WAV + CSBs. Be sure to check that setting, change it to LPCM WAV.

you should find all the info you need here:
http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=9045

with this information your next live recording will sound much much better!

as for fixing up the old one I would just boost it 8db or so such that the peaks don't clip. somewhere you can find a freeware vst plugin that can do hard limiting if you want to try boosting it beyond that without introducing clipping. you will need the vst enabler from the audacity homepage. I can't remember where to find a good free limiter right now (not much luck with google at the moment) but will check my bookmarks at home when I get the chance. Some of them are God-awful, some are quite good (ymmv).

[ReverbReverse]

Originally Posted by Five

okay now it is all coming clear!

you can control the volume level on the deck. you can only do it when a disc is inserted and you are in rec-pause mode....the other problem is that the manual levels have a value of between 0-30, and it will remember any setting except if it is below 13 it will stay at 13. 8-11 is usually best for recording live shows, so this is another thing that has to be tinkered with everytime you put in a disc.

0-30 is the range i have for the *playing* volume on mine - is that what you're talking about ?
What i usually set on the recorder is the *recording* level - depending on the band, venue, etc. i usually land between 11 and 13, and that brings me just before distortion.

low sensitivity is necessary as well (at least it can remember that).

and at least i've got one thing right :-s

also, looking at your frequency response it looks like you're still in default hi-sp recording mode. it cuts off abruptly at 19.5kHz (see 2nd-last pic in this thread), which is not something you should see with 44.1/16bit LPCM WAV + CSBs. Be sure to check that setting, change it to LPCM WAV.

You're right - all the other recordings i did were PCM, on the contrary to this one. I was trying to see whether by going in hi-sp it would maybe solve some of my problems. And i knew the set would be longer than 1hr34, and that i wouldn't have any time to change the mcd either.

Thank you so much for all the tips and links and all - i'll go looking for these, then..

[Five]

Originally Posted by ReverbReverse

0-30 is the range i have for the *playing* volume on mine - is that what you're talking about ?
What i usually set on the recorder is the *recording* level - depending on the band, venue, etc. i usually land between 11 and 13, and that brings me just before distortion.

yes to *recording* level. when you've got a disc inserted and you're in pause-record mode a new option becomes available to adjust the levels manually by going menu>rec settings>rec volume>manual

the sample you gave is peaking at -7.36 dB on the left and -7.84 dB on the right, so you have headroom to turn it up a little more while you're recording the show. otherwise, you can boost it a little after the fact. if you've been using manual recording levels at 11-13 you could try it maybe at something like 14-16? what you've got now is too quiet, not close to distortion yet, so a higher recording level will help with that.

you were saying earlier that you couldn't set the levels, I thought I figured it out... now you're saying you've been setting it to 11-13 not meant to be insulting in any way, I just want to understand what you mean by this!

[ReverbReverse]

five : It's all cool

What i said was "I use the mic in jack, and not the line in, since the recorder won't let me control the volume level," ..i should have been clearer, sorry. What i was meaning was that i don't plug the mic into the line-in, because if i do so (= use the line in socket and not the microphone one) then i can't set the levels - and everything gets instantly overdriven and distorted like there's no tomorrow. When i plug into the microphone socket on the contrary, i can set the levels.

..i don't know if i'm clear that way ?

I was a bit too much on the safe side with that one (was expecting the drums to be louder) but even if i get the highest level possible, it's only fractionally louder..

I was browsing these tutorials on the mcd site you were linking to.. and there's that guy who wrote one of them and makes the point that one should record at -20db in order to have more headroom to tweak with the sound afterwards. I get it in theory, but it left me perplexed since that's nothing i ever read anywhere else :-s ?