The Traders' Den  

  The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble > Lossy or Lossless?
 

Notices

Lossy or Lossless? Please use this forum to post spectral and frequency analysis posts about shows you have your doubts about.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 2005-08-21, 12:58 PM
corsair corsair is offline
10.83 GB/39.41 GB/3.64
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Lossy or 32Khz DAT

I have a recording whose source is supposed to be going
DPA 4061 > Sony TCD-D8.

However, after conducting some test with both AnalFreq,
and Spectral Analysis with EAC. I'm not so sure
if this is mp3 source or just a case of 32KHz DAT compression...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Spectral.jpg
( 117.5 KB, 269 views)
 
File Type: jpg Freq.jpg
( 38.1 KB, 208 views)
 
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #2  
Old 2005-08-21, 01:32 PM
range_hood's Avatar
range_hood range_hood is offline
lsmf
11.44 GB/10.00 GB/0.87
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Re: Lossy or 32Khz DAT

From what I can see here:

EACs spectral view is bad.
The frequency response goes up to about 16-17kHz, so this could be 32kHz DAT (theoretically frequency response is half of the sampling rate).
But it also could be mp3, from what we have.

Get Cool edit, take spectral shots of about 2 seconds and post it in png format or at least gif.

Spotting Lossy Sources--links inside
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #3  
Old 2005-08-21, 02:15 PM
Five's Avatar
Five Five is offline
189.30 GB/594.78 GB/3.14
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Canada
Re: Lossy or 32Khz DAT

agreed, hard to see from these pics. still could go either way
__________________
Checksums Demystified | ask for help in Technobabble

thetradersden.org | ttd recommended free software/freeware webring
shntool tlh eac foobar2000 spek audacity cdwave vlc

Quote:
Originally posted by oxymoron
Here you are in a place of permanent madness, be careful!
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #4  
Old 2005-08-21, 08:23 PM
corsair corsair is offline
10.83 GB/39.41 GB/3.64
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Re: Lossy or 32Khz DAT

Ok... here's what I did after downloading and installing CoolEdit 2k.

I zoomed in onto the wav, till its only ~ 2secs, and did a spectral view.
Correct me if I'm doing it wrong
Attached Images
File Type: png Spectral-CEP.PNG
( 242.5 KB, 693 views)
 
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #5  
Old 2005-08-22, 04:31 AM
range_hood's Avatar
range_hood range_hood is offline
lsmf
11.44 GB/10.00 GB/0.87
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Re: Lossy or 32Khz DAT

Could you post just the spectral pictures so you do not have to resize the picture? I think one channel is enough on this one.

If you want you can upload a 10 second sample on http://www.yousendit.com/ for further investigation. Just fill in your e-mail address and post the link to the file.
Attached Images
File Type: png Spectral-CEP.PNG
( 82.7 KB, 675 views)
 
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #6  
Old 2005-08-22, 04:35 AM
corsair corsair is offline
10.83 GB/39.41 GB/3.64
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Re: Lossy or 32Khz DAT

Something seems to be not right with my spectral picture...
Why is it only in greyscale, while on the rest of website, I see multi colors?
Can you enlighten me on the settings to change in CE Pro?

I'll get home later and re-do the image and upload a sample to you.
Thanks alot!
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #7  
Old 2005-08-22, 07:08 AM
corsair corsair is offline
10.83 GB/39.41 GB/3.64
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Re: Lossy or 32Khz DAT

Ok.. I've redone the spectral views..
I've included 2 samples... each is from different track.

Thanks!
Attached Images
File Type: png sa_1.png
( 223.2 KB, 153 views)
 
File Type: png sa_2.png
( 307.9 KB, 164 views)
 
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #8  
Old 2005-08-22, 09:12 AM
corsair corsair is offline
10.83 GB/39.41 GB/3.64
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Re: Lossy or 32Khz DAT

Link to the sample:

http://s24.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1...G3DJ2YRIM28U7O
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #9  
Old 2005-08-22, 09:16 AM
range_hood's Avatar
range_hood range_hood is offline
lsmf
11.44 GB/10.00 GB/0.87
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Re: Lossy or 32Khz DAT

Iīm not that experienced in 32 kHz Dats, so I just try.

Iīve found this in my collection:
nirvana1988-12-21
ANA(x) > DAT(1)@32khz > CDR(5) > EAC > WAV > FLAC > shntool > flac


Converted this to 320kbps mp3 for comparison it almost looks the same in coloured spectral analysis.







Switching to b/w mode and some sort of difference is noticable. Look at the artificial looking cut at 16 kHz (mp3 pic).






On the last one the y-axis is also zoomed. In the mp3 pic you can see this tiny, little blocks around the cutoff. This is an indicator for a lossy encoded audiofile - this time.




.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #10  
Old 2005-08-22, 10:40 AM
corsair corsair is offline
10.83 GB/39.41 GB/3.64
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Re: Lossy or 32Khz DAT

This is how mine looked like...after zooming in up close...

Seems more like a 32khz DAT after all.
Attached Images
File Type: png sa_3.png
( 127.4 KB, 673 views)
 
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #11  
Old 2005-08-22, 10:49 AM
corsair corsair is offline
10.83 GB/39.41 GB/3.64
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Re: Lossy or 32Khz DAT

I decided to encode my wav file to mp3 320Khz. Wow...the initial SA, when its NOT black & white looks almost the same. I did the same zoom in, B&W.. then I saw the difference..

This thread makes a pretty good documentation for 32khz dATs heheh,
or are we doing it the wrong way
Attached Images
File Type: png sa_4.png
( 98.6 KB, 662 views)
 
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #12  
Old 2005-08-22, 10:56 AM
U2Lynne's Avatar
U2Lynne U2Lynne is offline
TTD Staff
474.39 GB/2.01 TB/4.34
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: California
Re: Lossy or 32Khz DAT

This is great stuff. I know Five wants to write a document all about SA and FA sometime so I'm sure he just loves all this information. (And, the way you have laid it out makes it really easy to read and see all the differences.)
__________________
Five's Checksums Demystified - everything and anything you want to know about checksums
On a Mac? Get XLD to rip your CDs. Please see this guide - X Lossless Decoder (XLD): How to create flawless CD rips on Mac OS X


Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #13  
Old 2005-08-22, 11:55 AM
corsair corsair is offline
10.83 GB/39.41 GB/3.64
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Re: Lossy or 32Khz DAT

There is another point I want to add too. Its that, at first glance, it might not be obvious. U might need to move along the wav line and observe carefully. On a 32khz dat source, the surface should not have sudden trough or peaks... while on a mp3 source, the surface is not as smooth in a straight line, with chunks here and there at times.

More illustration.
Attached Images
File Type: png DAT32.png
( 63.1 KB, 121 views)
 
File Type: png sa(mp3).png
( 72.6 KB, 108 views)
 
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #14  
Old 2005-08-22, 02:31 PM
thornhill
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Re: Lossy or 32Khz DAT

ive got some screenshots of some stuff im 99% sure is sourced from 32k dat. lineage is CSB's > Sony PCM 1 > Fostex D5 > Tascam cdrw5000 > CD. theres a couple digipops in the first SA next to the yellow cursor so disregard those (unless of course you think its something of significance).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SA.jpg
( 68.6 KB, 98 views)
 
File Type: jpg FA.jpg
( 58.5 KB, 93 views)
 
File Type: jpg SA (1.5 sec).jpg
( 102.7 KB, 139 views)
 
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #15  
Old 2005-08-22, 06:10 PM
range_hood's Avatar
range_hood range_hood is offline
lsmf
11.44 GB/10.00 GB/0.87
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Re: Lossy or 32Khz DAT

thanks for the input thornhill. the nirvana source didntīt really have that much frequency response in the higher frequencies.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
Reply

The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble > Lossy or Lossless?

Similar Threads
Thread Forum Replies Last Post
32kHz upsampled to 44.1kHz - lossy? - GRC Lossy or Lossless? 5 2008-06-26 04:00 PM
32khz .wav allowed? - mbself Lossy or Lossless? 4 2007-01-20 05:09 PM
Is this lossy? - Garteh Lossy or Lossless? 6 2006-05-21 08:38 AM
32khz DAT's - rhinowing Technobabble 1 2005-02-09 10:35 PM
32kHz DAT - New Homebrew Lossy or Lossless? 8 2005-01-07 09:48 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forums


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:42 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - , TheTradersDen.org - All Rights Reserved - Hosted at QuickPacket