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View Full Version : Some serious questions...


danasan
2012-06-24, 04:06 AM
OK, I am quite new to the trading. Putting up some stuff that I got elsewhere to share is one thing.

I have been collecting records for more than 35 years now and I got some items which are "unofficially released" ones.

The CDs wont be the problem to rip and put up -technically speaking- if it is allowed to put them here. But how do I find out if they, or parts of them, were officially released some time after?

As an example:

http://www.discogs.com/Phil-Collins-The-Fabulous-Jacuzzis-One-Neat-Guy/release/2830306 or

http://www.discogs.com/Guns-N-Roses-Banzai/release/656539

would really be worth to share, but who can tell if it is OK?

Then, when it comes to the Vinyl:

As an example:

http://www.musik-sammler.de/media/514547 that is a BBC Transcription Service Record. Was it released officially later? I can't find out.

If I put it on my record player, the lineage would be something like that:

BBC Transcription Service Vinyl > LINN Arkiv ( Stylus ) with LINN EKOS ( Arm ) on a LINN LP 12 with LINN Lingo ( the player itself ) > LINN Silver Analogue interconnect > LINN Kairn ( Preamp ) > LINN Silver Analogue interconnect > Soundcard > Audacity 1.3 beta > 24 / 96 WAV / Flac

The chain isn't that bad, but who to ask to squeeze out the last bit of information, to slice it, as it comes out in a single file. I am not in the position to do it on my own...

What is to be called the "master" ? The record itself ? The file which comes out ?

As you can easily see, I am just a noob when it comes to this stuff. Help and advice would be nice.

rherron
2012-06-24, 08:00 AM
Gold Wave will split one .WAV file, which is what you'll have for each side of a vinyl record, into however many tracks (songs) are present.

Five
2012-06-24, 01:02 PM
okay for the lineage it says "soundcard". what soundcard? the one built into your dell when it shipped or better?

the GNR, which video are they saying its ripped from? is there any worth to putting this really really old vinyl version into circulation, does it actually sound better than what circulates. probably not...

for Dire Straits, I looked on the wikipedia discog & he has only 3 live albums, one of which appears to be the same as your vinyl with some tracks added. if the recording dates are different or something its okay but looks to me like its probably a no-go.

Phil Collins? check his discog, he also has very few official live albums

danasan
2012-06-24, 01:18 PM
Thanks Five, that helps.

As for the soundcard, I'd choose a better one, of course. I was only "generally speaking"

This Phil Collins was in circulation over there at G101 as mp3. Needless to go into details.

The GNR is a 2 CD set which I bought in a record shop around 1993. It doesn't offer a lineage at all. But it sounds really good in my ears. I haven't found it anywhere upped so far...

uninvited94
2012-06-24, 01:24 PM
The GNR is a 2 CD set which I bought in a record shop around 1993. It doesn't offer a lineage at all. But it sounds really good in my ears. I haven't found it anywhere upped so far...

The show itself at least has been circulating in quite many versions over the years, the Silver itself looks very familiar to me.

danasan
2012-06-24, 01:33 PM
Thanks uninvited94.

I have tried the usual seek options which no results. If it already exists, that's fine.

Five
2012-06-24, 02:39 PM
for cds use this:
http://exactaudiocopy.de/

surely somebody can get the correct date for this? usually there's an expert for each band kicking around somewhere with a crazy long list...

uninvited94
2012-06-24, 02:49 PM
surely somebody can get the correct date for this? usually there's an expert for each band kicking around somewhere with a crazy long list...

Date for what? Besides that, the GNR should be the audio-portion of the VHS/DVD from those shows. Never found out if they were at least semi-official. PPV for sure. You could and can buy those DVDs in German mega-stores.

danasan
2012-06-24, 02:50 PM
Well, I have got EAC at hands already.

OK,

- the Dire Straits is no-no
- the GNR is already public
- The Phil Collins is done as .mp3, as far as I can see. It was recorded (as the inlet states) at the Perkins Palace Pasadena California in 1983, which is probably not correct...

There is more in my collection, but we will see.

uninvited94
2012-06-24, 02:56 PM
At least someone who is thinking a bit before uploading. We had other people around, especially in the last few weeks. :thumbsup

danasan
2012-06-24, 03:05 PM
I just dislike the banned banner above my nickname. So why not play on the safe side. The Phil Collins would be worth a listen. But we do have to find out the correct information. AFAIK, he was at that place in 1982...

Edit 2 : It seems as if was 19-Dec-1982 according to this:

http://www.genesis-movement.org/php/showdetails.php?uid=2421

uninvited94
2012-06-24, 03:15 PM
This might contain all information needed:

http://www.genesis-movement.org/php/showdetails.php?uid=2421

Comment is interesting as well.

uninvited94
2012-06-24, 03:16 PM
Posted the same link at the same moment...

danasan
2012-06-24, 03:26 PM
I read the comment about the source

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=3qdeipmmc1b62h1

what is it worth? Anybody?

danasan
2012-06-24, 04:10 PM
Sorry...

http://www.mediafire.com/conv/f6ec30c5ca6805f280a1f6ecefffb2a7a005c6e36e1997c91971bde260e439fa6g.jpg

(Just found out how to put images here for better viewing)

Five
2012-06-25, 10:39 AM
looks okay so far, but spectral also needs to be checked

check here
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4288

scroll down to the part about audacity, particularly getting the right settings for spectral analysis. you want it to display 0-22050Hz then take a shot zoomed to about 4 seconds.

danasan
2012-06-25, 12:00 PM
Thanks for the help...

...now we are into technobabble http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/images/smilies/headscratch.gif

Five
2012-06-25, 12:12 PM
the frequency analysis doesn't show everything... if you want, post a sample to depositfiles/similar and I can check it on my end.

danasan
2012-06-25, 12:27 PM
Thanks again, I am going and being looking forward to learn a bit...

Well, in this special case here, Phil Collins, it is pretty clear judging by ears only. But, when it comes to the GNR mentioned before, the frequencies die at around 15.000 Hz, so it is as the uninvited said. Beside that, it was pretty clear hear-able that it comes from a poor source.

danasan
2012-06-25, 01:29 PM
I've put a portion of the Phil C. here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?c8wtz5g61kvczvu

I have d/l the .mp3 version over there, and...

Five
2012-06-27, 01:11 PM
there is a cutoff at about 21kHz that is strange... notice there is noise underneath, the "trim" is a little uneven. also, no blocks.

it could be a codec I don't know of that is uncommon... fwiw I have an official cd release with this kind of SA signature which was released in the 80s pre-lossy. I think its the kingsmen.

I'd say its okay, unless new information is put forward... :wave:

Five
2012-06-27, 01:13 PM
oh yeah, scroll down this thread to mp3 256 cbr
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=32490

that cuts off in about the same place as the phil show, but looks a lot different (worse!)

danasan
2012-06-27, 03:33 PM
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2644

Thanks again, Five.

I am just figuring out how to interpret all this stuff...

The picture on the left is what I get when looking at the GNR concert mentioned before .wav file... That is why I said it is from a crappy source. But that was noticed by hearing experience before.

To make a short story long(!):

Here is my subjective view and I do not want this being an "Oh, listen how crappy that is and .mp3 is crap at all" - thread as far as I am concerned. I am not an expert when it comes to technical details here. I just want to learn.

I d/l the Phil show (mp3 @<hidden> 320) and after that I figured out that there is no sense in comparing that unknown source with my own. I made a .mp3 @<hidden> 320 copy from my 2. disc and burned that as an audio CD, because my LINN Karik / Numerik CD couple only accept red book standard CDs; they prefer burnable Audio CDR media discs over other.

I have had this show for about 20 years now and I am listening to it regularly, especially In The Air tonight. So I threw it in and listened... The Treble seems a bit hard, the drums seem to come out more impressive ( in fact they are more boom boom, because some details are missing ). The most important difference is, that the show "sticks" to the speakers, the "third dimension" is almost missing. Almost "no stage"... The lossless discs will put you right into the action. Lord, I could explain better in my mother tongue... I hope you get the point.

But, as I have to admit, if I never had heard the original discs, I would be glad with this .mp3 - sourced concert till the end of time and I wouldn't have missed a single note. Why? Most of the official recordings nowadays give a similar impression to me.

Let me add something, please:

I have had a .mp3 ( @<hidden> 320 ) based Prince - ONA Solo Piano and Voice CD ( which was given to fans only as a DL from his website lossless ) burned onto a CD as above for years. I always thought: WOW, but c'mon, how the hell will be the lossless version ? I got it two years ago, and it is as if Prince sits just 5 meters in front of you fornicating the piano... Not from this planet.

Conclusion so far: Any information lost at the very beginning of the chain can't be restored. Nothing new.

Now the science begins. To be continued...

danasan
2012-06-27, 03:47 PM
Time out, so the EDIT why today's recordings are not the same as they were, speaking of quality:

We should not start a Vinyl discussion here "Oh, The DECCA FFSS, The RCA VICTORS LIVING STEREOS, The SHEFFIELD LABS, The DECCA PHASE 4, THE SONY JAPAN HALF SPEED MASTERS". These days are simply gone, regarding the quality of official recordings.

danasan
2012-06-28, 03:35 AM
OK, back to topic...

I got a Cool Edit Pro Demo, the analysis there makes it much clearer to me than audacity did.

The .wav > 100619

The .mp3 > 100620

It's exactly the same 9 seconds, different data regarding frequencies.

Now convert mp3 back to .wav > 100621

Ah... OK. Further inspections needed.

danasan
2012-06-29, 04:07 AM
Thanks for your helping hand again, Five.

I fiddled around with the spectral views and your tutorials again. I think I got it now.

I was going to ask if there was someone interested in one my Simply Red concerts, but something does say my I shouldn't:

http://www.mediafire.com/conv/d4219bb7cd66a4a0f730cdccd60481e43420004360990ce84be07d1c3d72bb564g.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?thumb=5&quickkey=ca6t87zchn1664t)

Thanks for your nice tutorials and all the work in them!

Five
2012-06-29, 06:57 PM
you're welcome :wave:

this one looks like an FM, can you zoom to about 4 seconds pls? resize audition a little smaller before you get the screencap so you don't have to shrink the image.

broadcast audio normally cuts off at 15kHz, and has the "red stripe". not usually a red stripe at 15kHz, tho :hmm:

pretty much all broadcasts of the last 10+ yrs is lossy but is allowed here so long as its captured well. (strange little exception)

previously, in the 70s etc of course it was lossless source, just dynamics compressed before broadcast & also with the stripe & 15kHz cutoff.

also, notice the noise above 15kHz... this is healthy, a normal thing to see. when you see pure black NOTHING up there somebody's messed with it either nr, eq or lossy encoding... zoom in for the truth!

danasan
2012-06-30, 03:43 AM
Hi Five,

here are the 4 seconds; the Simply Red is this one: http://www.musik-sammler.de/media/642915 No linage so far...

http://www.mediafire.com/conv/dcef6cf7cba97c16891147a63b92ec1a7bf18bd19238cc53abfa54ca3b8776ea6g.jpg

I thought about some FM "disturbance" as well. I remember recording these FM sessions with my parents' Revox A77 when I was a teenager in the '70. Often had something strange... When it died, everything went into the trash.

One quick question. I've made a setup like mentioned in my first post to "transfer" some vinyl:

http://www.mediafire.com/conv/b007a9cd2df6939ebd3ea0e3e1aa2a2b33e0aa81ec9a4ba1422526d89b4689696g.jpg

Would you mind having a look at a short snippet? It's a question if it makes any sense to transfer any unofficial stuff anyway.

Thanks again.

danasan
2012-06-30, 04:59 AM
just to add:

Some "pilot signal" ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_signal

WOW, my ears were good at that time...

Five
2012-07-09, 04:12 AM
Hi Five,

here are the 4 seconds; the Simply Red is this one: http://www.musik-sammler.de/media/642915 No linage so far...

http://www.mediafire.com/conv/dcef6cf7cba97c16891147a63b92ec1a7bf18bd19238cc53abfa54ca3b8776ea6g.jpg

I thought about some FM "disturbance" as well. I remember recording these FM sessions with my parents' Revox A77 when I was a teenager in the '70. Often had something strange... When it died, everything went into the trash.

One quick question. I've made a setup like mentioned in my first post to "transfer" some vinyl:

http://www.mediafire.com/conv/b007a9cd2df6939ebd3ea0e3e1aa2a2b33e0aa81ec9a4ba1422526d89b4689696g.jpg

Would you mind having a look at a short snippet? It's a question if it makes any sense to transfer any unofficial stuff anyway.

Thanks again.
yeah, sure post a sample would be great to check it. be aware that there are few vinyl sources that are best source, tho... (research necessary)

Five
2012-07-09, 04:13 AM
I'll check out the simply red tomorrow most likely... sorry for the late reply, summer is taking me outside :D