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Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-24, 11:51 PM
At the very least an attempt should be made to update the rules and enforce them. The mods that have done time, or still doing time, there have done the best they could with what they had, and have done great considering all things. I think they should be given more to work with.

If you don't care one way or another about the lounge or discussion areas, then no need for you to waste your time and energy just shooting down any ideas or attempts to try and help the lounge mods or forum itself.

This thread is for the people that have an opinion on the general discussion areas of the site one way or the other.

My suggestions...

There needs to be more mods in the discussion areas. Not all the mods for the site popping in and modding it in different ways. There are people that are here that are great mods in the areas that they are mod in, but are not really that good (hard to put it so nicely) modding the lounge. I would go with 4 mods with 2 that whore it up in the days, and 2 that usually check in at night. The lounge should be hands off to other mods/admins. If an admin is online and something needs to be taken care of, then it needs to be taken care of, that's what admins do, but it should be done in the same way the other mods are doing things.

It should be BB101 that mods should not have across the board powers, that they are a team that is/was assembled to help keep things flowing well and usually chosen for their specific knowledge and interest within the site and that is where they should mod. The general discussion mods, will by nature/necessity need to be recycled somewhat regularly and some will probably rotate in and out quickly, depending on how well they do and work together. Or at least get DCbullet some help in there.

Possibly create a subforum give it any name that implies garbage. Move the threads and posts that are violating rules there. Leave them all there for the trolls to feed on and bitch and moan about. Eventually ban them to there if they won't stop trolling the lounge.

With aliases, just take 'em case by case. Some are funny as hell. Others post shit that should be removed and the person behind it should be warned via PM that a ban will come for trolling. Shouldn't matter who is behind the alias, if it keeps up eventually IP ban them. I know the ones that want back in get back in, will So if one of those asshats shows back up and just starts raising hell, just keep moving the shit. Too much work?? Yes. I think there are people here that would gladly take that on. If they don't work out then recycle them. But I know that trying to mod one persons fucked up trolling frenzy by yourself is a lot of work. Again more mods.

Remove the tags feature in the discussion areas of the site. They serve no purpose other than to troll a different way.

I do not see any changes I have proposed that wouldn't serve the site as a whole. The trolling and BS is not only happening in the lounge. It spills over. The comments about the way things are modded, are also valid and serve the site as a whole.

Any thoughts?

AAR.oner
2011-01-25, 07:53 AM
i completely agree that the general discussion area of the board is important to the site, and has been "hurting" for some time...i think dcbullet has done a great job modding under the structure that was originally put in place, although that structure might need some tweaking at this point...i'm all for trying any reasonable ideas that might better the GD forums :thumbsup

i especially hope some non-pw's chime in who may have lurked the GD forums in the past, and would be interested in participating in them, if they weren't _______ [tell us the problems, possible solutions, etc]

paddington
2011-01-25, 09:09 AM
I think maybe Bill's vision for a BBS differs from what we do at TTD and that, maybe, he should start his own community and run how he sees fit (each week).

What makes TTD different is (1) the attempt to favor quality over quanity and (2) the attempt to be less heavy-handed than most other music trading sites.

The two often clash with each other, but I think we strike a good balance. We don't need more regulation and oversight.

toys
2011-01-25, 09:30 AM
Disagree james.

The GD forums were put there to try to get a sense of community going on the site. They have basically failed at that, year after year. We've got over 87k users here and it seems like less than 100 of them or so use the GD forums at all, and only a couple dozen of those 100 use them on any sort of regular basis. Trying something new would be preferable to me than more years of fail.

GhostInTheMachine
2011-01-25, 09:39 AM
We've got over 87k users here and it seems like less than 100 of them or so use the GD forums at all..
Here are some real time user stats :)

Audio Torrents (29 Viewing)
Video Torrents (28 Viewing)
Snail Mail Trading (1 Viewing)
The Lounge (5 Viewing)

AAR.oner
2011-01-25, 09:46 AM
I think maybe Bill's vision for a BBS differs from what we do at TTD and that, maybe, he should start his own community and run how he sees fit (each week).

What makes TTD different is (1) the attempt to favor quality over quanity and (2) the attempt to be less heavy-handed than most other music trading sites.

The two often clash with each other, but I think we strike a good balance. We don't need more regulation and oversight.

i don't see "regulating" obvious trolls &/or trouble makers as a bad thing, or being heavy-handed...maybe his "vision for a BBS" is something we should consider, as opposed to taking the stagnant "it is what it is" line of thought

can't get much worse imo...just my random 2cents :wave:

AAR.oner
2011-01-25, 09:47 AM
Here are some real time user stats :)

Audio Torrents (29 Viewing)
Video Torrents (28 Viewing)
Snail Mail Trading (1 Viewing)
The Lounge (5 Viewing)

we should just get rid of Snail Mail trading...what is this, 1974?!




;) :lol:

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 09:54 AM
What makes TTD different is (1) the attempt to favor quality over quanity and

Agreed. The discussion areas should be the same.


(2) the attempt to be less heavy-handed than most other music trading sites.

Not really. The thought when the site was created was to be more heavy handed with regards to seeds and music. The lounge was set up with a 'not very moderated' less heavy handed approach, and quite honestly I think that should change at this point and I was the person that fought for the lounge to not be heavy handed. I still don't think it should be.

I think at this point after seeing too many Active members leave because of the constant trolling and BS. And watching as a very small group of users just do and act however they see and create multiple alias accounts so they can stalk/troll anyone they want. Staff included.


The two often clash with each other, but I think we strike a good balance.

TTD does strike a balance and not easily done. I do not understand why there would be any resistance to trying to clean it up.

We don't need more regulation and oversight.

How about you just enforce the rules I posted in 04 when the site first went live. The original set still resides at the top of the music discussion. The lounge rules have been updated a time or 2.

Hardly ever enforced and when they are it is very selective on who gets the hammer. For the most part the rules are a joke and get violated daily.

paddington
2011-01-25, 09:57 AM
Disagree james.

The GD forums were put there to try to get a sense of community going on the site. They have basically failed at that, year after year. We've got over 87k users here and it seems like less than 100 of them or so use the GD forums at all, and only a couple dozen of those 100 use them on any sort of regular basis. Trying something new would be preferable to me than more years of fail.


I like the ratio of torrent-users to lounger users.
This site is about music trading.


We have the Piano Bar for serious music discussion and it stays pretty clean in there.

But still no one uses it...

If it is already there, fairly closely modded, has little bullshit and still not being used, what should be done differently?

Heavy-hand the lounge and no longer allow any bullshit, anywhere? Easy enough... but usage will not increase.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 09:58 AM
Disagree james.

The GD forums were put there to try to get a sense of community going on the site. They have basically failed at that, year after year. We've got over 87k users here and it seems like less than 100 of them or so use the GD forums at all, and only a couple dozen of those 100 use them on any sort of regular basis. Trying something new would be preferable to me than more years of fail.

:thumbsup

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 10:00 AM
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21797466/Confessions-Of-A-Moderator


Interesting read.

toys
2011-01-25, 10:09 AM
I like the ratio of torrent-users to lounger users.
This site is about music trading.

We have the Piano Bar for serious music discussion and it stays pretty clean in there.

But still no one uses it...

If it is already there, fairly closely modded, has little bullshit and still not being used, what should be done differently?

Heavy-hand the lounge and no longer allow any bullshit, anywhere? Easy enough... but usage will not increase.

You're reading me saying lets try things a different way in the hopes that they will be better and hearing "heavy handed modding". This does not necessarily have to be the case.

paddington
2011-01-25, 10:12 AM
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21797466/Confessions-Of-A-Moderator (http://www.scribd.com/doc/21797466/Confessions-Of-A-Moderator)


Interesting read.


I'm nearly positive there is something in there to be found about not dragging shit into a public forum after your PMs fail to garner the result you pursue.

Refer to my post above, where we already have a dedicated, closely modded, topical (music) discussion forum call "The Piano Bar" that gets lighter use than the lounge.

This is a music trading site and I believe you'll find that the music-related sections of the site (torrents, trading, etc) are well modded and no bullshit is permitted, in most cases. The primary focus of this site is there and that is where the primary interest of the users lies.



I think you need to consider the possibility that the only people that give a shit about this blissful, lively general discussion forum you seek are already in it.

toys
2011-01-25, 10:17 AM
James why are you so hostile to the idea of a more active general discussion area for the site?

paddington
2011-01-25, 10:33 AM
James why are you so hostile to the idea of a more active general discussion area for the site?


I'm not.

as I have pointed out (two posts, now) above, we already have a discussion area that is kept fairly bullshit-free and is only very lightly used.

What would be done differently with the lounge?

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 10:38 AM
I'm nearly positive there is something in there to be found about not dragging shit into a public forum after your PMs fail to garner the result you pursue.

You are correct. I have PMd mods/admins about it. This is a suggestion forum that was created for just this type of thing.

Refer to my post above, where we already have a dedicated, closely modded, topical (music) discussion forum call "The Piano Bar" that gets lighter use than the lounge.

I see no discussion areas outside of the political forum that is closely modded. Plenty of crap in the piano bar too.

This is a music trading site and I believe you'll find that the music-related sections of the site (torrents, trading, etc) are well modded and no bullshit is permitted, in most cases. The primary focus of this site is there and that is where the primary interest of the users lies.


Those area of the site are great. Modded well and very active. But again James, I was a part in creating this site and the idea of the discussion areas were important enough to create and the hopes were that it be an active community and a place outside of the downloading for music fans to go and talk about whatever. Not a playground with rules posted and no respect for them.

It was discussed at length whether or not to even have discussion areas, and the result of those talks was that the community was an important aspect to the site.


I think you need to consider the possibility that the only people that give a shit about this blissful, lively general discussion forum you seek are already in it.

Nope, I seek new users participation. I think there are plenty of interesting people downloading music at TTD that have no desire to participate in a discussion area that has rules that are not enforced and see the same arguments over and over. It could be better.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 10:40 AM
I'm not.

as I have pointed out (two posts, now) above, we already have a discussion area that is kept fairly bullshit-free and is only very lightly used.

What would be done differently with the lounge?

Anything could be done.

Enforce the rules.
Redesign the layout.
Ban the ones that deserve it.
Enforce the rules

Get the mods that do not give a shit out of the role of modding it.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 10:41 AM
I would merge the piano bar and lounge too.

If the rules are enforced, it would work out better. As James pointed out. It gets very little activity.

paddington
2011-01-25, 10:45 AM
I'm not.

as I have pointed out (two posts, now) above, we already have a discussion area that is kept fairly bullshit-free and is only very lightly used.

What would be done differently with the lounge?

Anything could be done.

Enforce the rules.
Redesign the layout.
Ban the ones that deserve it.
Enforce the rules

Get the mods that do not give a shit out of the role of modding it.


The rules are enforced, just not strictly. Do you prefer a heavy hand?
The layout isn't related to participation and won't yield any results.
Ban whom?

There is only one mod that mods the lounge.



Why don't you just come right out and say you want to be handed the lounge to mod and you'd make it the best lounge ever? I mean, if you are going to bring this out in the open for discussion, let's be frank.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 10:47 AM
James why are you so hostile to the idea of a more active general discussion area for the site?


You do come across hostile about any proposed changes.

I understand that you seem to somewhat enjoy the constant battle with Freezer, but it is one of the things I am trying to address here. That fight is now trolling, no more new info on either side, just a slew of insults and ugly tags.

paddington
2011-01-25, 10:50 AM
I do not mind changes.

I just don't think any of the changes you have listed, above, have any merit.

New wallpaper? Ban people without infractions just because of who they are and have been?

You need to propose better changes than that.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 10:52 AM
The rules are enforced, just not strictly. Do you prefer a heavy hand?
The layout isn't related to participation and won't yield any results.
Ban whom?

Ban the ones that need it. Not going to mention anyone, but anyone who is there enough knows who the people are that troll too much and get too personal with the attacks.

There is only one mod that mods the lounge.[/quote]

Yep. I think more would be helpful.


Why don't you just come right out and say you want to be handed the lounge to mod and you'd make it the best lounge ever? I mean, if you are going to bring this out in the open for discussion, let's be frank.

Frankly James, my only motive here is to make it better. I do not care who and what is involved in that.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 10:53 AM
You need to propose better changes than that.

That is the reason for this thread. Those are my ideas, if anyone else has anything to add or pick apart. Great.

Talking about it is not a bad thing

paddington
2011-01-25, 11:01 AM
Frankly James, my only motive here is to make it better. I do not care who and what is involved in that.


but the "who" and "what" are your concerns, best I can tell. It is your thread... I think you need a better, more specific plan... otherwise, you're still in the group with the rest of us... "yeah, the lounge could be better".


It is possible the light-modding style at TTD attracts bad attitudes.. but I think it is more likely that it just allows them to come out without fear or retribution.

paddington
2011-01-25, 11:05 AM
I have posted a poll.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=89080

toys
2011-01-25, 11:06 AM
I would like to hear more opinions from other people.

paddington
2011-01-25, 11:08 AM
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1548996#post15489976

Homebrew101
2011-01-25, 11:09 AM
leave the Piano Bar separate from the Lounge, cannot see any reason why you'd combine those 2

toys
2011-01-25, 11:29 AM
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1548996#post15489976

No I meant others opinions on what could or should be done with the General Discussion forums here, not who agreed or disagreed with your heavy handed modding tirade.

paddington
2011-01-25, 11:32 AM
It's a simple question.

The claim was brought up that the Lounge isn't modded well enough and needs more moderators, just a few posts above.

I think an anonymous vote is a great way to hear all voices.

toys
2011-01-25, 11:37 AM
What ONE person suggested was that more mods might be helpfull. Again, I would like to hear some opinions from OTHER people. Especially since it seems like you are going to post a special poll for each opinion offered.

paddington
2011-01-25, 11:45 AM
What ONE person suggested was that more mods might be helpful.

incorrect. That isn;t what he said. I don't think many would say the mods, here, aren't helpful.


What he said was that the mods "don't give a shit" and "don't enforce the rules" and we should "ban those that deserve it".

I do not see how you can read that any other way than him suggesting heavier moderation in the Lounge.


I'm not saying I am against it, I am simply asking how it will help participation? I doubt that it would, but I am open to hearing what people think.

An anonymous poll is a great way to find out.
Here it is: http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=89080

toys
2011-01-25, 12:00 PM
Oh, you said a few posts above so I thought you were talking about this -
Yep. I think more would be helpful.

once AGAIN would like to hear what others have to say.

Anonymous poll is not a great way to find out, its a way for every alias to vote.

dcbullet
2011-01-25, 12:18 PM
I'd love to hear comments from the greater TTD userbase.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 01:09 PM
leave the Piano Bar separate from the Lounge, cannot see any reason why you'd combine those 2

The thought in the beginning was the lounge would not be modded hardly at all and that the paino bar would. It was my original desire to leave the lounge to it's own devices and just deal with the crap when it arose. Obviously I see that 6 years later that plan did not bode so well. I was wrong and do not want the lounge to be heavily modded, just get rid of the BS.

I think the piano bar could and maybe should be left as it is for people to talk music. In the end though like the rest of the site it does receive collateral damage from the small group of people that troll the discussion areas using multiple accounts/aliases. If the lounge was better taken care of (read: more mods and rules enforced and followed regardless of who is doing it), then the rest of the site would benefit. Maybe not a lot, but the lounge would be more welcoming to new users, and any little bit of help with regards to the site as a whole should be at least entertained.

At this point I am just throwing ideas out there and asking if anyone has any others.

I appreciate your input. Nice to see how the older people feel ;)

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 01:30 PM
What he said was that the mods "don't give a shit" and "don't enforce the rules" and we should "ban those that deserve it".

There are mods here that don't give a shit about the lounge and probably should not mod there at all. Fact.

I do not see how you can read that any other way than him suggesting heavier moderation in the Lounge.


Just enforce the rules and instead of DCbullet going it alone and having other site mods come in and try and help, often can be problematic too.

You yourself James post semi-regular personal attacks against freezer. Not saying he doesn't have it coming sometimes I am just saying it needs to be addressed better than just breaking the rules yourself.
Trolling the trolls will not make them go away.

I'm not saying I am against it, I am simply asking how it will help participation? I doubt that it would, but I am open to hearing what people think.

Maybe it won't do a damn thing. I think the level of participation on any discussion board is directly tied to the behavior that is allowed.

An anonymous poll is a great way to find out.
Here it is: http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=89080

I posted there what I thought about the poll. Great idea, but anonymous.... :down:

I don't really care what all the aliases think. One vote, one user.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 01:32 PM
I'd love to hear comments from the greater TTD userbase.

Yes me too.

It will take awhile for the thread to develop past the people that have been talking about this now for some time.

I already know what most of the staff think. There are other staff members though that have remained very silent about this topic. Interested in what they think too.

I am also very interested in what users that stopped using the lounge that were once very active there think.

One of the admins have already chimed in. I would love to hear from the other 2.

daddyray
2011-01-25, 01:39 PM
:yawn:

what a surprise BK is talking this stuff again..
leave well enough alone....ain't ya ever watched yer Popeye cartoons?

dcbullet
2011-01-25, 01:52 PM
For the record, I deleted some "Lounge type" posts from this thread. Nobody else has deleted any posts.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 02:02 PM
For the record, I deleted some "Lounge type" posts from this thread. Nobody else has deleted any posts.

Thanks.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 02:07 PM
:yawn:

what a surprise BK is talking this stuff again..
leave well enough alone....ain't ya ever watched yer Popeye cartoons?

Your leave well enough alone vote has been counted.

Any reasons why?

It won't really affect you. I consider you to be one of the types of users that I wish we had more of. You actually contribute to the discussion community. Be it, music knowledge or humor. You are articulate and well spoken.

I do wish to attract more people like that. Do you have any opinions as to why out of 80k+, such a small amount of people post and/or stay active in those areas.

daddyray
2011-01-25, 02:11 PM
Bill, you will never get into my pants...give it up.

direwolf-pgh
2011-01-25, 02:11 PM
there are about 75 users on the site right now.. 2 in the lounge.

:hmm: maybe people come here for the music..

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 02:13 PM
Tell me Craig, why do you oppose any attempts to try and make it better.

Other than 'it won't work'

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 02:14 PM
there are about 75 users on the site right now.. 2 in the lounge.

:hmm: maybe people come here for the music..


Yes they do come here for music.

But the discussion side of the site could be better.

Maybe if the discussion side had the efforts from the staff that the music side gets, it would get to be a great as the rest of the site.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 02:17 PM
Bill, you will never get into my pants...give it up.


You are the wrong gender in regards to my sexual preference, and even if you were the right gender, you are too old.

daddyray
2011-01-25, 02:18 PM
ageism is ugly, you bigot!

daddyray
2011-01-25, 02:18 PM
(I'll fuck off now..thanks for playing)

direwolf-pgh
2011-01-25, 02:18 PM
B_K, I just dont like your style. I wish you all the best.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 02:32 PM
B_K, I just dont like your style. I wish you all the best.

I am not so fond of your style either. Wish you the best too.


Still would love to hear your input, as would others. I will and can look past the above posts and personal issues we have and keep trying to make the discussion areas better.

I wish you could too. Most know that you are the one that gets things done, it would be a shame if you let personal feelings get in the way of the best interest of the site.

U2Lynne
2011-01-25, 03:12 PM
OK, I'll chime in....

First I'll note that after our talk, I did bring The Lounge up in a Staff Discussion just to see what their opinions of The Lounge were - has it changed much? Are aliases a problem? etc. Pretty much I was told it hadn't changed much over the years (people in and out, but the *way* it was hasn't really changed) and aliases seem to be tolerated as long as they aren't created just to troll.

Anyway, onto a few of your other comments. We had combined The Piano Bar and The Lounge at one point, and then we decided that wasn't working and we created two separate forums again.

Right now, Bill (dcbullet) is our Lounge mod. It's supposed to be that he 'runs' that forum, but all the mods have mod privileges throughout the site because it drove me crazy on STG to see something happen in a forum that needed attention and I was powerless to do a thing cuz I wasn't a 'mod' in that forum. All the mods have 'their' forums and pretty much leave other forums alone unless it's a general thing that needs to be done (like a user asks to have a torrent pulled, or a post removed, that sort of thing).

The tags.... tags in vB are either on or off on the site. You don't turn them on only for certain forums. We try to keep them 'clean' in other forums, but we just leave them be in The Lounge. Yeah, I do agree that some of them are more trolling that silly, which is what I had wanted them to be. So, while I don't really want to turn them off, I can see what you mean regarding their being used to troll.

OK, now onto more mods there.... you want more mods so that all the posts are read and all trolling stopped immediately? Or all fights nipped in the bud, so to speak?

I'm trying to get a sense on whether this is an issue that only a few users feel is an issue, or whether it is a Big Issue. I, like others that have chimed in here, would love to hear from some of the other users of the site. So far this thread is filled with comments from those that do go into The Lounge and post, so obviously something isn't keeping them away. It would be good to hear from those to don't dare go into The Lounge and what scares them off - or do they just want their music and that's it?

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 03:21 PM
OK, I'll chime in....

First I'll note that after our talk, I did bring The Lounge up in a Staff Discussion just to see what their opinions of The Lounge were - has it changed much? Are aliases a problem? etc. Pretty much I was told it hadn't changed much over the years (people in and out, but the *way* it was hasn't really changed) and aliases seem to be tolerated as long as they aren't created just to troll.

Anyway, onto a few of your other comments. We had combined The Piano Bar and The Lounge at one point, and then we decided that wasn't working and we created two separate forums again.

Right now, Bill (dcbullet) is our Lounge mod. It's supposed to be that he 'runs' that forum, but all the mods have mod privileges throughout the site because it drove me crazy on STG to see something happen in a forum that needed attention and I was powerless to do a thing cuz I wasn't a 'mod' in that forum. All the mods have 'their' forums and pretty much leave other forums alone unless it's a general thing that needs to be done (like a user asks to have a torrent pulled, or a post removed, that sort of thing).

The tags.... tags in vB are either on or off on the site. You don't turn them on only for certain forums. We try to keep them 'clean' in all forums, but we just leave them be in The Lounge. Yeah, I do agree that some of them are more trolling that silly which is what I had wanted them to be. So, while I don't really want to turn them off, I can see what you mean regarding their being used to troll.

OK, now onto more mods there.... you want more mods so that all the posts are read and all trolling stopped immediately? Or all fights nipped in the bud, so to speak?

I'm trying to get a sense on whether this is an issue that only a few users feel is an issue, or whether it is a Big Issue. I, like others that have chimed in here, would love to hear from some of the other users of the site. So far this thread is filled with comments from those that do go into The Lounge and post, so obviously something isn't keeping them away. It would be good to hear from those to don't dare go into The Lounge and what scares them off - or do they just want their music and that's it?

It will take some time to get that sense I think. There are people I know I have talked to privately that share a lot of my frustrations that are seemingly not going to make it public. Understandable.

Hopefully if some people keep seeing this and seeing that it is something of concern to the staff and see some actual dialogue, they will come out of the woodwork and post.


and Lynne you know....

it drove me crazy on STG to see something happen in a forum that needed attention and I was powerless to do a thing cuz I wasn't a 'mod' in that forum.

That is why you became an admin there and was first on my list to try and start something else with after it's demise. :cool:


I actually understand and respect where you are coming from and it is nice to know that you care enough to entertain the thoughts and discuss in this forum any ideas, as opposed to just closing the lounge doors, which I know you have considered at least a couple of times. ;)

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 03:23 PM
It would be good to hear from those to don't dare go into The Lounge and what scares them off - or do they just want their music and that's it?

That is what I was hoping to achieve by starting this thread here.

direwolf-pgh
2011-01-25, 03:29 PM
I am not so fond of your style either. Wish you the best too.

Still would love to hear your input, as would others. I will and can look past the above posts and personal issues we have and keep trying to make the discussion areas better.Gosh, I didn't even know we had 'personal issues' - thanks for the chuckle.

Here's what I think. I think you preached 'the promised land' and a few users bought into it. But we both know you can't really deliver the goods. I'm enjoying the whatnot.

you want to change the lounge? go make some posts and new threads. Hope this helps.

paddington
2011-01-25, 04:23 PM
I think the lounge is not a major part of TTD and I hope it never is. This site is about making live music archives available for free and that is the primary use.

Mission accomplished.

We have several very useful, well controlled forums (for tapers, technical help, etc) that do get heavy use and they work very well.

This stuff you keep spouting about how no one makes an effort, etc, is just like... your opinion, man, and I don't think you have any way of knowing what any of us do.

daddyray
2011-01-25, 04:32 PM
Indeed the tech help is second to none....no other torrent site comes close.

rspencer
2011-01-25, 05:08 PM
I've seen all this before at another site I frequented (well, not as frequent any more).

On one side, what some saw as heavy-handed modding. On the other, a group of people going out of their way to oppose it. End result, lots of members driven off or posting/coming by less. Drastic change in the number of posts overall. And the creation of a "Rated R" sub-forum for what were deemed the "unwanted" type of threads/posts.

Didn't work. And the shitstorm still affects the mood to this day (over a year later).

As far as the Lounge...it's not that different. Go back into old threads. Yeah, different people. But still just a regular dozen or so making the majority of the posts.

Yeah, plenty of your old peeps aren't here, Bill. But, then again, you haven't been either. :dunno:

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 05:09 PM
Gosh, I didn't even know we had 'personal issues' - thanks for the chuckle.

Anytime.

Here's what I think. I think you preached 'the promised land' and a few users bought into it.

Or to put it another way, agree. But whatever.

But we both know you can't really deliver the goods. I'm enjoying the whatnot.

The only goods I am trying to deliver is bringing it up.

you want to change the lounge? go make some posts and new threads. Hope this helps.

That's what I have been doing, as well as, trying to talk to the staff and users about the problems I see.

direwolf-pgh
2011-01-25, 05:15 PM
i seeded a torrent at 11am est today / 3 pages of random thanks. it will hit 300+ downloads by midnight and maybe 5 pages of thanks
you started this thread at 12pm est .. and not one random person has posted.

users here care about music. ..next.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 05:19 PM
I think the lounge is not a major part of TTD and I hope it never is. This site is about making live music archives available for free and that is the primary use.

The discussion side is not a major part of the site, doesn't or shouldn't mean that it is left in a 'nothing more can be done' state.


Mission accomplished.


The fact is, it is a part of the site. And the only part that isn't as good as it could be.

We have several very useful, well controlled forums (for tapers, technical help, etc) that do get heavy use and they work very well.


Yes, they are modded well and get a lot of attention from the staff. THe lounge would only be better if it was approached the same way.


This stuff you keep spouting about how no one makes an effort, etc, is just like... your opinion, man, and I don't think you have any way of knowing what any of us do.

You're right. I only know what is posted and the attitude that is presented by staff about the lounge.

Maybe I need to state again. The rest of the site is great and modded well by a group of people that know their shit and care about the areas they were brought in to mod. Great job. I am not disputing that. I am just saying again that maybe it is time to bring some new people in that might serve that forum as well as the others. Just some dedicated help for DCbullet from people that are not going to oppose changing things in a forum they don't even think is important to begin with.

Homebrew101
2011-01-25, 05:21 PM
as others have pointed out, most people come here for the music and likely not to have discussions
the average number of members that do frequent the lounge seems to have been consistent since the beginning

face it bill, this is a music site much more than a discussion board
K.I.S.S.

paddington
2011-01-25, 05:36 PM
that forum as well as the others. Just some dedicated help for DCbullet from people that are not going to oppose changing things in a forum they don't even think is important to begin with.

What is it that Bullet needs help doing, again?

dcbullet
2011-01-25, 05:43 PM
that forum as well as the others. Just some dedicated help for DCbullet from people that are not going to oppose changing things in a forum they don't even think is important to begin with.

For the record, I don't think I need any help. If we were to change the way we moderated the Lounge, I would just change how I enforced whatever rules were decided on.

uni-fi
2011-01-25, 07:13 PM
Alright damn it...I'll be the "other people" everyone has been wanting to hear from. My two cents is that I actually spend more time in the lounge than I do in the music torrents. Personally, I have been trading for a long time, and got into doing it digitally with DC++. I have a shit load of music...probably more than I will ever be able to listen to. With that said, I enjoy spending time in the GD areas. Everyone here seems to have their own quirks (no big revelation there).

Grain of salt...

There seems to be a more serious vibe in all other areas of the site related to video and audio torrents, tech help, etc. It gets a little harsher in certain areas like the piano bar and the political forums. That's fine, you can't be super serious about politics or music, or people fly off the handle. Then we have the lounge. I think Lynne said it best in the posting guidelines...

if you are here just to attack someone else or troll the forums, please leave. We don't want you here. If you are here to just sit back with friends, discuss different things on your mind, and occasionally take humorous stabs at each other, stick around!

That is really a solid 85% to 90% of what goes on in there. The tags are really just stabs at people...with a minor amount of trolling going on there. There are a few places with some trolling going on, but it is pretty isolated to mostly threads that Art likes to frequent. I personally don't have a problem with him, and actually find some of his flame ups humorous, and I'd say 97% of the trolling tags belong to him. Still, having the ability to put people on ignore generally helps.

Should the answer be to have a 100% unmoderated forum? I don't think it is, but it is a different way of thinking than what has already been thrown out there. If so, the lounge will have to heavily moderated to enforce the rules, and the only other option will be to push users over to an unmoderated forum to get back freedoms they once had. I will say that the rules are not enforced in the lounge...or at least very sparingly. Could there be a few people that need a temporary time out, sure...However, it could be a lot worse. It could really turn to a giant flaming shit hole, but for the most part the people that do frequent there have some morals, and common sense enough to cool out after a little while.



The be all end all is that I don't want to lose the freedom I have now in the lounge, and at the same time, I don't think an unmoderated forum would be a good thing either due to the total bullshit users would have to endure to have the freedom to post the way we do now.

At best I would say to bring back the temp ban from the lounge if you get too far out of line. If you take your aggression out in the other forums, then use a site wide temp ban, but with an emphasis on temporary. But, mods cannot be involved in the trolling activities or flame wars, and that is something that is best suited for another discussion brought up by someone other than B_K (don't do it :nono:).


There is my long ass two cents.

toys
2011-01-25, 08:02 PM
well goddamn cheers to uni-fi! :cheers:

next?

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 08:14 PM
For the record, I don't think I need any help. If we were to change the way we moderated the Lounge, I would just change how I enforced whatever rules were decided on.

Point taken.

I still maintain that it would not be a bad idea to have more coverage if the rules were to be changed or enforced more.

As it stands now, you have done a great job. I have personally not seen you get caught up in the crap there. You haven't quit yet and that is good. :lol4:

:cheers:

To anybody willing to donate their time and energy to running this site. And a big thank you to the original 5-7 that gave so much time in creating the site in the first place.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 08:15 PM
well goddamn cheers to uni-fi! :cheers:

next?

:thumbsup

bluzman
2011-01-25, 10:01 PM
Since you're asking...

I'd kind of leave it more or less the way it is. I'm here for the music BUT I've benefited more in the forums in getting music here, especially the Piano Bar, but I also enjoy the Politics. I have a Mac in front of me quite a bit each day due to being a mod on another tracker (HC) that is down, and I mod on a technical discussion forum for guitar related gear. I'm active on other trackers but don't participate in the forums.

The TTD forums are very easy to get to and to navigate. :thumbsup

I lurked for a LONG TIME before I ever posted in the Lounge. WHY? ...because the core here is very tight knit and didn't always make it easy for some to fit in. That has calmed down a little bit over the past year. One of the more prolific lounge posters use to invite me into the lounge, but I knew it was just to fuck with a noob, so I ignored the invitation until I was ready.

I feel the Tracker Moderation here is very good and very fair. :thumbsup
Forum Moderation is "less good" but that's part of it. After all, you do have a warning/disclaimer, but at times I'm sure it has frightened off lurkers from participating in the lounge. I'm sure they UL and DL though.

From what I have observed and experienced, people with mod powers (stealth mods or trouble maker mods) need(ed) to be reeled in more at times. Although in the past few months it's much better. In all honesty, during my lurking, that fact kept me from making any meaningful contribution here for a long time. I'm sure it had the same effect on some lurkers too. Food for Thot.

Some people don't know how Forums on trackers can benefit them musically, and to me The TTD Forums (more the Piano Bar) are a more in-depth and direct way to get more of the music I like in bulk aside from the tracker, and much of it ends up on the tracker which benefits all interested. The Forums are definitely a good part of TTD for socializing and music. :thumbsup

I have met some very nice people here I can call friends and vice versa (yes it's true) and that is a good thing. We've mailed hard drives and flash sticks around the country, tested guitar stomp boxes, phone calls about guitars and amps, notifications of bands passing through, on and on and on... and I got a really, really nice and very usable Christmas/Birfday gift!! :thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

I think the comments left on torrents here have good count when compared to other large trackers, and I think torrent comments here contain a bit more substance.

Tweak what you think you should tweak but the formula seems to be working, so if you make changes, I'd say small steps.

Thanks!

PT

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-25, 11:36 PM
Since you're asking...

I'd kind of leave it more or less the way it is. I'm here for the music BUT I've benefited more in the forums in getting music here, especially the Piano Bar, but I also enjoy the Politics. I have a Mac in front of me quite a bit each day due to being a mod on another tracker (HC) that is down, and I mod on a technical discussion forum for guitar related gear. I'm active on other trackers but don't participate in the forums.

The TTD forums are very easy to get to and to navigate. :thumbsup

I lurked for a LONG TIME before I ever posted in the Lounge. WHY? ...because the core here is very tight knit and didn't always make it easy for some to fit in. That has calmed down a little bit over the past year. One of the more prolific lounge posters use to invite me into the lounge, but I knew it was just to fuck with a noob, so I ignored the invitation until I was ready.

I feel the Tracker Moderation here is very good and very fair. :thumbsup
Forum Moderation is "less good" but that's part of it. After all, you do have a warning/disclaimer, but at times I'm sure it has frightened off lurkers from participating in the lounge. I'm sure they UL and DL though.

From what I have observed and experienced, people with mod powers (stealth mods or trouble maker mods) need(ed) to be reeled in more at times. Although in the past few months it's much better. In all honesty, during my lurking, that fact kept me from making any meaningful contribution here for a long time. I'm sure it had the same effect on some lurkers too. Food for Thot.

Some people don't know how Forums on trackers can benefit them musically, and to me The TTD Forums (more the Piano Bar) are a more in-depth and direct way to get more of the music I like in bulk aside from the tracker, and much of it ends up on the tracker which benefits all interested. The Forums are definitely a good part of TTD for socializing and music. :thumbsup

I have met some very nice people here I can call friends and vice versa (yes it's true) and that is a good thing. We've mailed hard drives and flash sticks around the country, tested guitar stomp boxes, phone calls about guitars and amps, notifications of bands passing through, on and on and on... and I got a really, really nice and very usable Christmas/Birfday gift!! :thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

I think the comments left on torrents here have good count when compared to other large trackers, and I think torrent comments here contain a bit more substance.

Tweak what you think you should tweak but the formula seems to be working, so if you make changes, I'd say small steps.

Thanks!

PT

Well put.

I have made some good friends in the general discussion areas at a few sites. As well as acquired a lot of great shows through those areas, 2 this week alone. A nice Coltrane show & just today a Robert Plant Band of Joy show. I have also been introduced to bands/artists/books through discussion. The amount of knowledge is amazing, technical knowledge and just information in general.

AAR.oner
2011-01-26, 07:51 AM
i've agreed with most of what bill has said, and have seen less activity in the Lounge over the last few years...it used to be a far more diverse, interesting dialogue as opposed to what is now a lot of fighting over the same ol bs thats been fought over before, but now with rampant alias usage...yes this is a music site mainly, however the general discussion aspect has always played a role and was seen by many as one fo the few trading sites with an active general discussion side -- and folks liked that

its NOT about being tyranical or heavy-handed, its about squashing incessant bickering & trolling so that more interesting dialogue can take place...like uni-fi posted above, the freedom in there is great and i don't think that should change -- but enforcing the rules already in place such as this one

if you are here just to attack someone else or troll the forums, please leave. We don't want you here. If you are here to just sit back with friends, discuss different things on your mind, and occasionally take humorous stabs at each other, stick around!

needs to happen and it doesn't...i don't care if its a noob, a returning "problem", a regular with "special priviliges", or staff, that rule needs to be enforced since some can't act their age! otherwise we get what we've got now, consistent trolling/attacking/etc creating an unfriendly, and as an old post whore, uninteresting, GD area

For the record, I don't think I need any help. If we were to change the way we moderated the Lounge, I would just change how I enforced whatever rules were decided on.

i also agree that i think dc is more than capable of handling it fairly & with little or no extra help...we simply need to enforce rules that we've openly decided to not enforce...very different from the rest of the site and a decision thats had a negative effect imo...




that said, i've brought up some of these issues & ideas before [long before bill started coming back around], and they've been met with similar response...personally, i think a small handful of folks enjoy the immature, mindless drivel that the Lounge has devolved to in a lot of ways & i think any opposing opinion, be it a Lounge regular or staff or someone who doesn't post in the Lounge, will be met with the usual response

hopefully some non-post whores will find this thread and comment, and their comment will be met with something other than a "stfu n00b" or a :finger:

direwolf-pgh
2011-01-26, 07:54 AM
yes. two days and not a single comment.

that is a statement in itself. :) maybe we can get one today

there are currently 50 users on the site. good luck

AAR.oner
2011-01-26, 07:57 AM
you know as well as i that folks don't check this forum wolf ;)

i'd say this'll need to be an open thread and dialogue for at least a few weeks to start seein any response from non-pw's...kinda like the MD ban discussion, we had that open for months in order to get a wide response

direwolf-pgh
2011-01-26, 07:59 AM
agree. my bot alias has two seeds in the top ten list.

this #1 seed at the moment has 4 pages of nice comments :)

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=89079

and it replaced a very sad remaster -- double bonus for everyone

U2Lynne
2011-01-26, 10:31 AM
I threw up a Notice. If people are interested in stating their opinion, they should now have a direct link here.

No scaring off the new users guys! :nono:

General Electric
2011-01-26, 10:51 AM
There are some artists that allow snail mail trading, but not torrents. Also there are some of us that may still dabble in the analog realm. Lets not give up on it; digital is still improving and it is the old analog recordings that the remasters have to come from. Additionally, there are a few of us that still take the tube mics and Reels out for a show.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-26, 10:58 AM
I threw up a Notice. If people are interested in stating their opinion, they should now have a direct link here.

No scaring off the new users guys! :nono:

:vino:

Thanks.

paddington
2011-01-26, 10:59 AM
There are some artists that allow snail mail trading, but not torrents. Also there are some of us that may still dabble in the analog realm. Lets not give up on it; digital is still improving and it is the old analog recordings that the remasters have to come from. Additionally, there are a few of us that still take the tube mics and Reels out for a show.

yes, I agree :thumbsup

AAR.oner
2011-01-26, 11:31 AM
There are some artists that allow snail mail trading, but not torrents. Also there are some of us that may still dabble in the analog realm. Lets not give up on it; digital is still improving and it is the old analog recordings that the remasters have to come from. Additionally, there are a few of us that still take the tube mics and Reels out for a show.

yes, I agree :thumbsup

not sure how this pertains to the discussion at hand, but i completely agree GE :lol:

thebigguy
2011-01-26, 12:15 PM
It seems to me that a lot of hte lounge negativity really pertains to a couple threads (ie who`s entitled or washed up, etc.). I find it interesting that the same people with 5 or 6 aliases in the lounge that fight can comfortably coexist within the context of the political forum. Considering how heated politics get in general, it`s surprising that the politics forum remains the sane younger brother to the lounge.

Threads such as the nostalgia thread, the video game one, etc don`t get crazy. We basically have a couple back and forth threads that get a lot of the attention, but for the most part, the lounge continues like any other message board. People post the latest youtube video, or a funny news story.

Personally, as much as I don`t participate in them, I enjoy reading the arguments between Toys and Freezer, as well as their tags.

I don`t see much need to increase moderation. I see a thread that gets boring as I define that, I stop reading it. I went through a period where I never read the lounge, lately I`ve found a bunch of threads I regularly post (and hopefully contribute) to.

paddington
2011-01-26, 01:51 PM
the freezer stuff goes in cycles... and is mostly entertaining. I'm not sure he gets much more out of line than anyone else, overall. Maybe a bit.


On the topic of combining the Lounge / Piano bar / Political forums, I think those have very good reason to stay separate. When politics began creeping into everyday discussion a few years ago, it because quite obvious a split was needed to keep the political BS out of the lounge and allow people to completely ignore it, if they wished.

Same with the Piano Bar... it's a fairly clean place for music discussion. The Lounge keeps the BS out of the Piano Bar for people who wish to ignore both non-music-related threads and political threads.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-26, 01:59 PM
the freezer stuff goes in cycles... and is mostly entertaining. I'm not sure he gets much more out of line than anyone else, overall. Maybe a bit.


On the topic of combining the Lounge / Piano bar / Political forums, I think those have very good reason to stay separate. When politics began creeping into everyday discussion a few years ago, it because quite obvious a split was needed to keep the political BS out of the lounge and allow people to completely ignore it, if they wished.

Same with the Piano Bar... it's a fairly clean place for music discussion. The Lounge keeps the BS out of the Piano Bar for people who wish to ignore both non-music-related threads and political threads.

I agree on the separation between those 3, as they are indeed topical forums and are very informative and much would get lost in the lounge, regardless of the BS staying or going. The fact that they run so much differently is one of the reasons I think it wouldn't be hard to keep the BS out of there too.

Like stated before, a lot of the people in there act differently in the lounge than they do in those forums, I think that is partly because we have allowed it to be that way. And allowed it selectively.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-26, 02:01 PM
the freezer stuff goes in cycles... and is mostly entertaining

Maybe, but .....


# Do not just decide to attack someone. If someone insulted you a month ago, who cares, we don't want to hear about it. If someone insulted you on another site, we don't care, don't bring it over here or you may be told just how much the others don't want to hear about it. If you don't like another user, fine, then ignore them, but don't continually insult them because the rest of us don't want to hear about it.
# No stalking - don't take your personal differences from one thread to another. And especially don't take it out of The Lounge.



I think Art has been on both sides of these rules being broken, and again if you aren't going to address both sides, then you can't address one. You can not do anything about Art breaking these rules if you are not going to do something about others breaking them against Art. Staff again, included.

paddington
2011-01-26, 02:07 PM
correct.
Freezer is a lounge character.
He was once banned from the lounge for a long time.
He simply posted the stuff in other places, though less-often.

It wasn't really the kind of offense someone should be permanently banned for, so we let him back into the lounge. Problem went away.
This is what the Lounge is for.
Piano Bar is for more serious music discussion.
Political is for that.
The Lounge gets everything else.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-26, 02:18 PM
correct.
Freezer is a lounge character.
He was once banned from the lounge for a long time.
He simply posted the stuff in other places, though less-often.

It wasn't really the kind of offense someone should be permanently banned for, so we let him back into the lounge. Problem went away.
This is what the Lounge is for.
Piano Bar is for more serious music discussion.
Political is for that.
The Lounge gets everything else.

But it still continues.

And with ample provocation from others. They were not addressed/handled or banned the way Art was, were they? Maybe they were.

Have you been talked to about trolling Art. Has Steve? Or anyone else. I know I never was and was just a guilty of trolling Art as are a handful of other users. Fun, maybe. Counterproductive, yes.

So of course, he isn't going to just sit and take the shit. So it continues on and on. And is clearly against posted rules, on both sides.

So IMO, either adjust the rules to state something to the effect of It may be a good idea to befriend the staff or become staff, that way the rules will be very flexible for you'

Or just remove the very few, as stated above -about 1%, just crap activities.

Delete it, move it, whatever.

paddington
2011-01-26, 02:24 PM
I simply dish back at Art what he dishes out. He's a big boy. Can take it.

Have a look at how many other users I troll... (zero). Same with Toys.

Freezer simply trolls everyone, except powder & monk. Neither of them post much anymore, so you can't blame Freezer.

It has already been shown, time and time again, that freezer will do this kind of thing in cycles. He'll chill for months, then back at it. Seems like you want to ban him for it and I don't necessarily agree with that.

paddington
2011-01-26, 02:28 PM
So IMO, either adjust the rules to state something to the effect of It may be a good idea to befriend the staff or become staff, that way the rules will be very flexible for you'



That is an unfair and uninformed statement.


I like TVHead and think he is a valuable contributor... but ask him how many of his posts I have deleted because they were over the line. It sets him off rampages from time to time. He doesn't get any more breaks someon nWo, who everyone seems to want ban.


I will tell you this, when you start deleting people's posts, they stop posting because they begin to feel like they are wasting their time if their stuff might just disappear because someone else didnt like it.

That's a shitty way to run a discussion forum and it is destructive.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-26, 02:41 PM
That is an unfair and uninformed statement.

That is your opinion and quite honestly you are one of the ones I am referring to. I like you and most of what I see you post and the way I have seen you mod is pretty much a what you see is what you get, great way to be. Everyone quickly realizes where you stand.

The other side though James is, when someone pisses you off or you appear to not like them, you seem to post after them often and IMO take those differences from one thread to another.

I know I can't bring this up without pissing a few off and I will say I feel that you are one of the ones from the beginning that has responded and participated in the discussion. I appreciate that.

I like TVHead and think he is a valuable contributor... but ask him how many of his posts I have deleted because they were over the line.


I do not doubt that. I agree and do like TV as well. I fought for him not to be banned along with some others in the beginning here and at STG. But I also think for the most part TVs over the top posts are reactionary.

Again I think TV has been on both sides as well. Trolling and being trolled. So you can't really single him out anymore than you can single Art out as being a problem user, they are just acting within the environment in the same way others are and seemingly within what is acceptable in the lounge.

I will tell you this, when you start deleting people's posts, they stop posting because they begin to feel like they are wasting their time if their stuff might just disappear because someone else didnt; like it.

That's a shitty was to run a discussion forum and it is destructive.

I have modded enough and been an admin at 2 sites, and tried many things from heavy handed to hands off, I can tell you by allowing the rules to be broken, and participating in breaking the rules if you are on staff. It is also a shitty way to run a discussion forum and it is destructive too.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-26, 02:52 PM
Seems like you want to ban him for it and I don't necessarily agree with that.

Nope. Not at all.

I do not wish for anyone to be banned right now and would suggest that if the rules were to be enforced more, that it be a subtle slow change and give some users some ample time to see where they fall before anyone gets banned.

I think some of the users that troll will stop if they see an effort from the staff to put a stop to the negative trolling.

I do differentiate between negative and positive trolling. Really quick example, Rob calling me buzz_kill and giving me a hard time, positive trolling.

If I did have a problem with it though, I would talk to him and then talk to the staff, and he should be addressed and temp banned if it did not stop, then banned for good if he kept it up. As it would fall under taking issues across multiple threads and stalking.

But I do not have an issue with Rob, I know he is just old and crotchety :D

So obviously the trolling would need to be addressed by the people that are being trolled. Many do not mind, some do. I do think it has gone above just trolling and into a gray area of bullying and the recipients have no choice but to leave or dish it right back.

paddington
2011-01-26, 02:56 PM
So IMO, either adjust the rules to state something to the effect of It may be a good idea to befriend the staff or become staff, that way the rules will be very flexible for you'



That is an unfair and uninformed statement.

That is your opinion and quite honestly you are one of the ones I am referring to.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Just because I talk shit back to people, I am showing favoritism to others? :hmm:

Talking shit does not equate to abusing mod rights. I don;t know how you are drawing that link. I don't edit or delete their posts. I conduct myself like any other member, and I moderate the Audio Torrents area + related technical discussions.

That's how I think moderators should behave... like everyone else - not like some condescending Superman. How many friends does Superman have? None.

Moderators that participate in all aspects of the site and interact with the other members are much better able to do the job, imo, than someone that simply lurks until something comes up.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-26, 03:03 PM
You have no idea what you are talking about. Just because I talk shit back to people, I am showing favoritism to others? :hmm:

Talking shit does not equate to abusing mod rights. I don;t know how you are drawing that link. I don't edit or delete their posts. I conduct myself like any other member, and I moderate the Audio Torrents area + related technical discussions.

That's how I think moderators should behave... like everyone else - not like some condescending Superman. How many friends does Superman have? None.

Moderators that participate in all aspects of the site and interact with the other members are much better able to do the job, imo, than someone that simply lurks until something comes up.

I hear you and my opinion of you has changed considerably since this discussion started and as others I respect have come to your defense. Sorry if I offended you. I would put you in the 'cares enough to talk about it' category. You are a class act on that level :thumbsup

daddyray
2011-01-26, 03:15 PM
ahem

paddington
2011-01-26, 03:16 PM
I think it is entirely possible to overthink all this...

It is my opinion that people best govern themselves, rather than being in constant fear of reprimand.


There is one single change we can make that will most greatly benefit the lounge. It was your suggestion (Bill) and I (and two others) had already been privately talking about it.

I still think it is the easiest, least disruptive thing to do that will effect a positive change in the level of participation.

Marc
2011-01-26, 03:25 PM
Start enforcing the rules in The Lounge and create a second everything goes lounge called /b/

rspencer
2011-01-26, 04:22 PM
The Poli Forum is a coffee shop, people sitting around discussing the latest news.

The Piano Bar is more of a record store. People sharing their latest finds, or their old faves.

And the Lounge is a bar. And all that that might entail. Smoking, drinking, a bit of crudity here & there. Some trash-talking, and the occasional real argument.

And what happens in a bar where you have bouncers hovering over you, waiting for you to break a rule or step ever so slightly out of line?

You quit going to that bar.

The free-wheelin' feel of the Lounge is its magic. Straighten it up, get everybody to walk in a single file line, and you'll have the same boring GD forum every other message board has.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-26, 04:49 PM
The Poli Forum is a coffee shop, people sitting around discussing the latest news.

The Piano Bar is more of a record store. People sharing their latest finds, or their old faves.

And the Lounge is a bar. And all that that might entail. Smoking, drinking, a bit of crudity here & there. Some trash-talking, and the occasional real argument.

And what happens in a bar where you have bouncers hovering over you, waiting for you to break a rule or step ever so slightly out of line?

You quit going to that bar.


But if you went into a bar and started stalking people and just being ugly for the sake of being ugly, you would get kicked out or get your ass kicked then kicked out. Most of the crap would stop if the aliases were controlled better and people had to actually post using their primary account OR the complete troll aliases were taken care of.

The fact does remain that some of the worst aliases were created and allowed only to harass/stalk people.

The free-wheelin' feel of the Lounge is its magic. Straighten it up, get everybody to walk in a single file line, and you'll have the same boring GD forum every other message board has.

Don't need to go to that extreme. I have been a part of some boards that have fairly relaxed rules (but enforced) that remained interesting and active, just reduces the number of habitual trolls/jerks

U2Lynne
2011-01-26, 10:06 PM
I cleaned the thread a bit. If you guys want to read about Superman and his friends, you'll find the posts in The Deleted Posts from Elsewhere (http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54685) thread. If we want to get some discussion from others, they aren't going to want to read all that.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-26, 10:12 PM
Thanks

mooncusser
2011-01-26, 10:13 PM
The Poli Forum is a coffee shop, people sitting around discussing the latest news.

The Piano Bar is more of a record store. People sharing their latest finds, or their old faves.

And the Lounge is a bar. And all that that might entail. Smoking, drinking, a bit of crudity here & there. Some trash-talking, and the occasional real argument.

And what happens in a bar where you have bouncers hovering over you, waiting for you to break a rule or step ever so slightly out of line?

You quit going to that bar.

The free-wheelin' feel of the Lounge is its magic. Straighten it up, get everybody to walk in a single file line, and you'll have the same boring GD forum every other message board has.

Agree - and for the record, I typed the entry below before reading the post above (bar analogy and all).

++++++

This thread appears to me to be a study in one person's obsession with a topic, assumption of multiple facts not yet in evidence, and more than a few people willing to mess with the author. The music-oriented action happens mostly in the torrent forums. What happens in the Lounge is a social aspect of the site that's fairly unique these days. I participate at other sites that don't have nearly the flavor & fun that the Lounge does.

Not saying it can't be improved but don't see how more mods or more modding makes that happen. It's a small part of the site to me (and also the part I visit most often).

Kinda like the cool bar around the corner from the record store. Most people go to the record store for tunes. Some people also hang out at the bar. Suggesting that people who visit the store without visiting the bar should take a stake in the bar -- or that the owner of the bar should make changes to make itself more relevant (what that even means?) to the record store patrons -- seems to me a bit of a disconnect. Heck, your average torrent thread sometimes has a problem getting people to say "thank you"...

paddington
2011-01-26, 10:32 PM
The Poli Forum is a coffee shop, people sitting around discussing the latest news.

The Piano Bar is more of a record store. People sharing their latest finds, or their old faves.

And the Lounge is a bar. And all that that might entail. Smoking, drinking, a bit of crudity here & there. Some trash-talking, and the occasional real argument.

And what happens in a bar where you have bouncers hovering over you, waiting for you to break a rule or step ever so slightly out of line?

You quit going to that bar.

The free-wheelin' feel of the Lounge is its magic. Straighten it up, get everybody to walk in a single file line, and you'll have the same boring GD forum every other message board has.

Agree - and for the record, I typed the entry below before reading the post above (bar analogy and all).

++++++

This thread appears to me to be a study in one person's obsession with a topic, assumption of multiple facts not yet in evidence, and more than a few people willing to mess with the author. The music-oriented action happens mostly in the torrent forums. What happens in the Lounge is a social aspect of the site that's fairly unique these days. I participate at other sites that don't have nearly the flavor & fun that the Lounge does.

Not saying it can't be improved but don't see how more mods or more modding makes that happen. It's a small part of the site to me (and also the part I visit most often).

Kinda like the cool bar around the corner from the record store. Most people go to the record store for tunes. Some people also hang out at the bar. Suggesting that people who visit the store without visiting the bar should take a stake in the bar -- or that the owner of the bar should make changes to make itself more relevant (what that even means?) to the record store patrons -- seems to me a bit of a disconnect. Heck, your average torrent thread sometimes has a problem getting people to say "thank you"...


I think these are good points...

there will always be those who don't want to participate... like Hugo's wife thinks we are "retards" (or at least some of us). She's not wrong, really... the Lounge is a place where people can show their asses (though not literally :nono: ) without (much) fear of retribution.

What I cannot grasp is why some people would think they will be attacked just because they join in... if some shit is going on between Toys & freezer or me and freezer, that doesn't mean Toys and I are going to jump all over the next person that comes in.

There are many different social norms different people go by. I run into it all the time when working... something that is perfectly normal and benign to some will offend the hell out of others... being a (mostly) globally-accessible site, we're going to run into things like that from time to time.

I can tell Toys to go fuck himself and he'll get over it... it's not personal. To someone else, it would be an act of war or something.



The question, here, which I fear has no good answer:

How do we make the Lounge feel safe for 99% of people who lurk in it to participate (obviously there are several that read and don't chime in.. but continue to read) without dulling down the very dynamic that makes it so unique?

I mean, honestly, this site beats the shit out of most other torrent sites as far as community and personality goes... it may be disfunctional, but it ain't boring, by any means.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-26, 10:57 PM
I think these are good points...

there will always be those who don't want to participate... like Hugo's wife thinks we are "retards" (or at least some of us). She's not wrong, really... the Lounge is a place where people can show their asses (though not literally :nono: ) without (much) fear of retribution.

What I cannot grasp is why some people would think they will be attacked just because they join in... if some shit is going on between Toys & freezer or me and freezer, that doesn't mean Toys and I are going to jump all over the next person that comes in.

There are many different social norms different people go by. I run into it all the time when working... something that is perfectly normal and benign to some will offend the hell out of others... being a (mostly) globally-accessible site, we're going to run into things like that from time to time.

I can tell Toys to go fuck himself and he'll get over it... it's not personal. To someone else, it would be an act of war or something.



The question, here, which I fear has no good answer:

How do we make the Lounge feel safe for 99% of people who lurk in it to participate (obviously there are several that read and don't chime in.. but continue to read) without dulling down the very dynamic that makes it so unique?

I mean, honestly, this site beats the shit out of most other torrent sites as far as community and personality goes... it may be disfunctional, but it ain't boring, by any means.

Good points. I see how a lot of people are assuming that it would lose all of its fun if any changes are made. Really if just these were addressed and taken care of, it would be good for the lounge.

That the staff follow the rules a bit more than the average user.
That the staff address the habitual trolls and try to employ anything that might help.
That aliases that are not just fun characters be banned.

I do not want a g-rated board and I love a lot of the things that others may find offensive and understand that the line is different for everyone.

I do maintain that there is an element there that is ugly and that it does nothing but bring more of it around. I do not think addressing these would or should equate to a speech regulated police state or would create any kind of boring discussion forum.

It is the lounge and will always be too crude for some, but doesn't need to allow people to do whatever they please.



As far as the back and forths between people, just keep those lovefests to one thread. IE - (Freezer loves James, Wolfie loves toys, anyone who is sick of bill_kate)

They can be very entertaining reads and I have picked up some great new insults to use when I am at an actual bar. Just keep em contained.

I am not for any sort of New Order Board.

Just get rid of the blatant obvious shit.

paddington
2011-01-26, 11:04 PM
you either need a comma there or make that an adverb.



Maybe we could just adopt the practice of a mod posting a fluffy bunny any time a thread is getting out of control?

That way, nothing has to get deleted and no long-winded chastising posts will be needed... simply "heed the bunny" and tone it down?


http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5118/1038s.jpg

rspencer
2011-01-26, 11:10 PM
As far as the back and forths between people, just keep those lovefests to one thread. IE - (Freezer loves James, Wolfie loves toys, everyone is sick of bill_kate)

They can be very entertaining reads and I have picked up some great new insults to use when I am at an actual bar.

Fixed that for you, mouthbreather. ;)

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-26, 11:16 PM
you either need a comma there or make that an adverb.



Maybe we could just adopt the practice of a mod posting a fluffy bunny any time a thread is getting out of control?

That way, nothing has to get deleted and no long-winded chastising posts will be needed... simply "heed the bunny" and tone it down?


http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5118/1038s.jpg

I tried posting a pic of an emergency brake a couple of days ago in a couple of threads.

paddington
2011-01-26, 11:19 PM
you either need a comma there or make that an adverb.



Maybe we could just adopt the practice of a mod posting a fluffy bunny any time a thread is getting out of control?

That way, nothing has to get deleted and no long-winded chastising posts will be needed... simply "heed the bunny" and tone it down?


http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5118/1038s.jpg

I tried posting a pic of an emergency brake a couple of days ago in a couple of threads.


yes, but that may come off a bit totalitarian and oppressive to some... the fluffy bunny would be more universally accepted and not generate ill will.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-26, 11:27 PM
Good point. The bunny is better

mooncusser
2011-01-26, 11:44 PM
That the staff follow the rules a bit more than the average user.
The staff here are also users. They mod specific areas and are patrons in the others. They're already a cut above the average user because they know there are rules.

And they're volunteers....

That the staff address the habitual trolls and try to employ anything that might help.


like what? offer them candy? extra ice cream after dinner if they behave? (rhetorical questions)

That aliases that are not just fun characters be banned.

destined for inconsistent application of a guideline. one person's fun is someone else's useless and annoying.

ep620
2011-01-27, 12:02 AM
Have we found anyone new that cares yet?

paddington
2011-01-27, 12:11 AM
There was that one guy that was kind of incoherent. I think he may have called us all psychopaths, but I'm not sure, really. If he'd dropped into the lounge 2 years ago, even Vlad would have eaten him alive.

dcbullet
2011-01-27, 01:09 AM
I wonder why R-O has a more active forum than we do with 1/10 the userbase and very strict moderation. Is it because it is a single interest forum?
Posted via Mobile Device

paddington
2011-01-27, 01:27 AM
I wonder why R-O has a more active forum than we do with 1/10 the userbase and very strict moderation. Is it because it is a single interest forum?
Posted via Mobile Device


It is because that single use is no longer of much interest to the userbase.

hardly any of the regular posters there are actively downloading anything... it's a Led Zeppelin coffee house, now, rather than a music exchange site.

I'd say it was 90% music downloading and 10% discussion outside the torrent threads 5 years ago. Now it is likely exactly opposite of those figures.

The difference is that TTD is still about music sharing and R-O has evolved into mainly a discussion forum since everyone already has all the Led Zeppelin they will ever need after 7 years of trading it digitally.
Not saying there is anything wrong with that.. that is just how it is.

dcbullet
2011-01-27, 01:56 AM
hmmm...maybe, maybe not. I don't think that explains why. I'm not sure that can be known. Just an observation, though.

paddington
2011-01-27, 01:59 AM
old people?

AAR.oner
2011-01-27, 07:17 AM
What I cannot grasp is why some people would think they will be attacked just because they join in... if some shit is going on between Toys & freezer or me and freezer, that doesn't mean Toys and I are going to jump all over the next person that comes in.



because anyone new who posts more than once or twice ends up gettin the n00b verbal beatdown shit...and to use the word yet again because it seems to really pertain, its incessant

AAR.oner
2011-01-27, 07:19 AM
That the staff follow the rules a bit more than the average user.
That the staff address the habitual trolls and try to employ anything that might help.
That aliases that are not just fun characters be banned.

I do not want a g-rated board and I love a lot of the things that others may find offensive and understand that the line is different for everyone.

I do maintain that there is an element there that is ugly and that it does nothing but bring more of it around. I do not think addressing these would or should equate to a speech regulated police state or would create any kind of boring discussion forum.

It is the lounge and will always be too crude for some, but doesn't need to allow people to do whatever they please.



As far as the back and forths between people, just keep those lovefests to one thread. IE - (Freezer loves James, Wolfie loves toys, anyone who is sick of bill_kate)

They can be very entertaining reads and I have picked up some great new insults to use when I am at an actual bar. Just keep em contained.

I am not for any sort of New Order Board.

Just get rid of the blatant obvious shit.

+1 :clap:

bluzman
2011-01-27, 11:07 AM
That the staff follow the rules a bit more than the average user.
That the staff address the habitual trolls and try to employ anything that might help.
That aliases that are not just fun characters be banned.

I do not want a g-rated board and I love a lot of the things that others may find offensive and understand that the line is different for everyone.

I do maintain that there is an element there that is ugly and that it does nothing but bring more of it around. I do not think addressing these would or should equate to a speech regulated police state or would create any kind of boring discussion forum.

It is the lounge and will always be too crude for some, but doesn't need to allow people to do whatever they please.



As far as the back and forths between people, just keep those lovefests to one thread. IE - (Freezer loves James, Wolfie loves toys, anyone who is sick of bill_kate)

They can be very entertaining reads and I have picked up some great new insults to use when I am at an actual bar. Just keep em contained.

I am not for any sort of New Order Board.

Just get rid of the blatant obvious shit.

+1 :clap:

A common sense solution?

AAR.oner
2011-01-27, 11:21 AM
scary, isn't it?

uni-fi
2011-01-27, 03:31 PM
because anyone new who posts more than once or twice ends up gettin the n00b verbal beatdown shit...and to use the word yet again because it seems to really pertain, its incessant

Not to mention most new users don't realize that you can't d/l 5 shows your first week and keep a positive ratio. Thereby effectively getting bashed with "your ratio sucks and so do you n00b" comments.

U2Lynne
2011-01-27, 04:06 PM
I'm playing the Admin card guys. My forum, my threads to mod. :cool:

daddyray
2011-01-27, 04:08 PM
so stern and proper...we love ya for it Lynne :wave:

The Wicker Man
2011-01-27, 08:18 PM
Wait, Freezer is real! I always thought he was like games or something...

AAR.oner
2011-01-28, 08:30 AM
I'm playing the Admin card guys. My forum, my threads to mod. :cool:

:whip: i love it! :clap:

The Wicker Man
2011-01-28, 06:25 PM
I'm playing the Admin card guys. My forum, my threads to mod. :cool:

'Bout Fucking Time ;) :clap:

ep620
2011-01-28, 07:03 PM
Here we are having a conversation in a heavily moderated area of the Den with a big "whats your thoughts" sign on the front page and no one but the regulars are talking.

Why change things for people that don't care and will never join in conversation?

daddyray
2011-01-28, 07:07 PM
because Buzz Kill thinks they just maybe maybe might join in some kinda way......I suppose he wants more people to read his long winded diatribes...I think most of us here have seen more than enough of that tripe....
always presume things are ego driven to proven otherwise, right?

chinajoe
2011-01-28, 08:26 PM
regarding the lounge, why not set a minimal amount of posts before one is allowed in the lounge. dont have the count be public, if possible. you'd have massive post whores, trying to get the higher count. this will also cut down on the amount of new troll aliasas.

uni-fi
2011-01-28, 09:00 PM
Part of the problem here that B_K has addressed has been the trolling going on, but the other part of the problem has been with lack of participation in the lounge not generating any new post whores. Why not put a link in the registration email as well as in the successfully completed registration screen about stopping by the lounge and introducing yourself. It would generate some new users to the lounge, at least saying hello, and let them look around a bit.

Maybe send out a pm with a link to a "long time listener first time caller" thread for current members to stop into the lounge and say hello as well...

U2Lynne
2011-01-28, 09:05 PM
Part of the problem here that B_K has addressed has been the trolling going on, but the other part of the problem has been with lack of participation in the lounge not generating any new post whores. Why not put a link in the registration email as well as in the successfully completed registration screen about stopping by the lounge and introducing yourself. It would generate some new users to the lounge, at least saying hello, and let them look around a bit.

Maybe send out a pm with a link to a "long time listener first time caller" thread for current members to stop into the lounge and say hello as well...
New ideas! An Introduction Thread could be a good idea. :thumbsup

ccrider895
2011-01-28, 09:19 PM
Perhaps it's time to retire this? :stfu:

Seems that most folks will warm to subtle changes before radical ones.

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-28, 09:23 PM
Perhaps it's time to retire this? :stfu:

:thumbsup

paddington
2011-01-28, 10:12 PM
Perhaps it's time to retire this? :stfu:

Seems that most folks will warm to subtle changes before radical ones.


how would you propose to do that? :hmm:

rspencer
2011-01-28, 10:17 PM
Just remove the n00b part.
That'll free it up for use in telling anyone to STFU.

rspencer
2011-01-28, 10:17 PM
Just remove the n00b part.
That'll free it up for use in telling anyone to STFU.

paddington
2011-01-28, 10:20 PM
we need to ban double posts, too

chinajoe
2011-01-28, 10:39 PM
if you banned banning, with the exception of torrents, then all should be ok. or not.:lol:

paddington
2011-01-28, 10:44 PM
yes, one or the other, for sure :thumbsup

Tappy
2011-01-28, 11:00 PM
Perhaps offering new users some sort of incentive to post in The Lounge might generate more participation... something like for every 20 posts they get 5GB upload credit or something along those lines

uni-fi
2011-01-28, 11:19 PM
That seems a little stiff to me...I am not really for built in incentives...that just asks for people to come in a PW just to raise an otherwise crappy ratio when leaving your torrents running will do the same thing.

Besides, 20 posts isn't enough. I might say 5 gigs on 500 posts, but not 20. That way if you want to fix your ratio, you have to stick around to get to know everyone, not just come in and PW for 10 minutes and leave.

paddington
2011-01-28, 11:20 PM
Perhaps offering new users some sort of incentive to post in The Lounge might generate more participation... something like for every 20 posts they get 5GB upload credit or something along those lines


not to be an asshole,... but you've been here 5 years and don't know the site doesn't use credits and the ratios are only informational? :hmm:

rspencer
2011-01-28, 11:22 PM
:rolleyes:

uni-fi
2011-01-28, 11:27 PM
In his defense, even though a shit ratio isn't a bannable offense, people have taken a lot of shit in the lounge for not having a better than 1 to 1 ratio.

I don't condone it, and have a better than 1 to 1 at any private tracker I belong to, but let's call a spade a spade.

Wasn't it peaktime that got into the huge flame war and eventually asked to be banned over his shit ratio?




.40 forever

paddington
2011-01-28, 11:31 PM
.30 forever, actually.


but no, no one has ever been banned for a ratio issue, nor been denied access to the tracker or had their downloads limited because of it.

if your ratio sucks, you migth catch crap for it... but it's just some guy talking shit.

Tappy
2011-01-28, 11:32 PM
not to be an asshole,... but you've been here 5 years and don't know the site doesn't use credits and the ratios are only informational? :hmm:

People wanted ideas so i gave one, you dont like it, stiff shit.

All i'm seeing are people whinging and crying about the lounge but there are bugger all people coming up with ideas.

You also say the ratio's are informational. If that really is the case then why is a there a ratio bashing thread? http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25339

If the ratios don't matter why have that thread at all? Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me the purpose of that thread is to try and shame them into improving their ratios.

uni-fi
2011-01-28, 11:34 PM
.30 forever, actually.


but no, no one has ever been banned for a ratio issue, nor been denied access to the tracker or had their downloads limited because of it.

if your ratio sucks, you migth catch crap for it... but it's just some guy talking shit.



But isn't that exactly what would deter someone from coming back to the lounge?

Which is exactly what we're trying to improve upon with this whole thing if I'm not mistaken (although I could be...who knows anymore)

Tappy
2011-01-28, 11:34 PM
Besides, 20 posts isn't enough. I might say 5 gigs on 500 posts, but not 20. That way if you want to fix your ratio, you have to stick around to get to know everyone, not just come in and PW for 10 minutes and leave.

20 was just an example. :)

paddington
2011-01-28, 11:36 PM
yes, we would like to see everyone at 1:1 or better.

nothing happens if you aren't, though.


Some guy talking shit about your ratio isn't any different than some guy talking shit about your avatar or sig.

uni-fi
2011-01-28, 11:48 PM
yes, we would like to see everyone at 1:1 or better.

nothing happens if you aren't, though.


Some guy talking shit about your ratio isn't any different than some guy talking shit about your avatar or sig.

But we all know that a little ribbing about your avatar or sig comes and goes...but a shitty ratio is a long road for the casual admirer of the music that may not have much to offer yet. And god forbid they try to make a point of that...I know I am guilty of shit talking to a few people, and I know of many others that are just as guilty.

If I only came here for the music, and got bashed in the lounge the first time I stepped in there over something like my ratio, I would never come back.

But I do see your point.



So, if the ratio doesn't matter, why is there any negative argument toward credit for posting? A few gigs for a few hundred posts? Seems fair enough. For a shitty ratio, it's a way to get it better, and meet some of the old timers. Seems like a win win regardless of whether it's a bannable offense or not. Instead of just giving people shit over a shitty ratio, you can give someone shit, and then give them a way to improve it.

rspencer
2011-01-28, 11:57 PM
Paying them with ratio for posting in the Lounge?

That's not the type of whoring we're looking for.

rspencer
2011-01-28, 11:57 PM
Paying them with ratio for posting in the Lounge?

That's not the type of whoring we're looking for.

uni-fi
2011-01-29, 12:00 AM
Is double posting the type you're looking for? :D

U2Lynne
2011-01-29, 12:04 AM
Reggie must be on a slow connection. :) Or he's installed some code to double-post to improve his post count. :hmm:

uni-fi
2011-01-29, 12:05 AM
Reggie must be on a slow connection. :) Or he's installed some code to double-post to improve his post count. :hmm:


He spoke of dial-up earlier...

:wtf:

I didn't even know that still existed.


I'm leaning towards coded PWing FTW

U2Lynne
2011-01-29, 12:09 AM
I didn't even know that still existed.

Unfortunately, I can verify it still exists when I go up to our summer place. :(

rspencer
2011-01-29, 12:10 AM
Yeah. On dial-up & downloading at the same time. Post & the page will hang, resulting in a double post. That's why I usually try to not d/l while posting, or vice versa.

But, if it'll double my post count... :woot:

Tappy
2011-01-29, 12:58 AM
Paying them with ratio for posting in the Lounge?

That's not the type of whoring we're looking for.

What type of "whoring" are you looking for then?

LuvGlimmerTwins
2011-01-29, 07:10 AM
What type of "whoring" are you looking for then?
+1 :wave:

AAR.oner
2011-01-29, 08:43 AM
because Buzz Kill thinks they just maybe maybe might join in some kinda way......I suppose he wants more people to read his long winded diatribes...I think most of us here have seen more than enough of that tripe....
always presume things are ego driven to proven otherwise, right?

for the record, he's not the only one that thinks things need to change around GD...why is it everyone keeps ignoring the elephant in the room and avaoiding the points being made?


the issue isn't with being heavy-handed or adding mods or offering "incentives" as mentioned above, not is it with wolf's "experiment" by randomly deleting posts from the thread...the issues in the Lounge have been with blatant attacking/trolling on a regular basis, attacking new people posting for the first time [not in a friendly welcome-to-it kinda way], and an overall aggressive/negative vibe if ya will...i've noticed it become increasingly like a playground with some cool kids who bully anyone who comes near...and numerous people have left the GD areas because of it...this ain't junior high, we're all adults, and alot of it is just plain retarted!


there are many who might not see it that way, who weren't around in the earlier years...the Lounge has always had its share of bickering sure, the so&so vs so&so battles, but it was usually kept between the two and overall the forum was lively with dozens of regular pw's, lots of interesting conversation, etc...its been a steady decline, with many telling me personally they just didn't like how negative it was becoming...and i'll agree, its really losing the "fun" of pw'ing

if we're uninterested in making the place better, increasing the amount of characters in the Lounge, and are content with aliases talking to each other and the same "entitlement" rants over & over -- then i reckon i'ma just scoot on to somewhere's else to waste my work hours away...incessant picking at people and talking to the same half dozen folks about fuck all is boring

uni-fi
2011-01-29, 10:41 AM
for the record, he's not the only one that thinks things need to change around GD...why is it everyone keeps ignoring the elephant in the room and avaoiding the points being made?


the issue isn't with being heavy-handed or adding mods or offering "incentives" as mentioned above, not is it with wolf's "experiment" by randomly deleting posts from the thread...the issues in the Lounge have been with blatant attacking/trolling on a regular basis, attacking new people posting for the first time [not in a friendly welcome-to-it kinda way], and an overall aggressive/negative vibe if ya will...i've noticed it become increasingly like a playground with some cool kids who bully anyone who comes near...and numerous people have left the GD areas because of it...this ain't junior high, we're all adults, and alot of it is just plain retarted!


there are many who might not see it that way, who weren't around in the earlier years...the Lounge has always had its share of bickering sure, the so&so vs so&so battles, but it was usually kept between the two and overall the forum was lively with dozens of regular pw's, lots of interesting conversation, etc...its been a steady decline, with many telling me personally they just didn't like how negative it was becoming...and i'll agree, its really losing the "fun" of pw'ing

if we're uninterested in making the place better, increasing the amount of characters in the Lounge, and are content with aliases talking to each other and the same "entitlement" rants over & over -- then i reckon i'ma just scoot on to somewhere's else to waste my work hours away...incessant picking at people and talking to the same half dozen folks about fuck all is boring

With all due respect Aaron, aren't you usually one of the first to hop on the attack wagon at the site of a bad ratio? And like I said before, god forbid anyone attempt to defend that ratio...it's all over after that. That is the type of stuff that makes people leave the lounge, and you sir are as guilty as all of us (me included). We understand what the issues are, but once again, you have reiterated the issues without any solution. We have 11 pages of this discussion with about 4 or 5 attempted solutions in it. So lets try to warm up to some of these, and quit with the incessant reiteration of the same old argument. The way I see it, at this point each person is either part of the problem, or part of the solution. With that said...

- Sending out emails with the registration, and having a link to a welcome thread in the registration page, and then even sending out a PM to the current members with an invite will all generate new interest in the lounge.

- Giving users a way to up their ratio outside of simply U/L is a great way to help out some of the bad ratio's around here. And you're not going to PW 500 posts in a day (well maybe some of the people around here could give that one a run for it's money)...But most of the people that have been around for a while that hang in the torrent section only have like 80 to 90 posts for 5 years. Let's not just be part of the problem, let's give them a solution, one that gets them hanging in the lounge and getting to know other people around here. Because obviously the charm that is exuded by the current members negates an incentive to keep people hanging around. And unless you're going to ban someone for being an asshole, I don't see how you're going to change that.

- Let's cull the trolling aliases. 90% of the lounge regulars have aliases that pop up from time to time, but there are only a select few that are used for trolling. We all know who they are...If that is a serious problem, kill it. I have no issues with aliases being used for fun, but outside of that, give them the axe.


With that said, idle threats of leaving over something like not having enough stimulating conversation in the lounge, or enough PW's to keep it interesting enough for you is just as childish and immature as anything else here. Comments like that are what drive people away. If you want to call it a playground full of bully's, then why are you making threats to take your ball and go home? Once again, part of the problem or part of the solution...which one are you going to be?

daddyray
2011-01-29, 11:04 AM
Aaron I guess I was not clear....I do not disagree with what you say in the least

Sure let's have a better bigger lounge.....how can we be sure the actions taken will have the desired effect....which actions in what order. there is the rub...only the alias removal (Alias Assassin subforum!) sounds clearly practical of the ideas that have been floated (and there have been very few ideas put forth mostly just folks hoping for better days)

sysoverload
2011-01-29, 11:09 AM
yes, we would like to see everyone at 1:1 or better.

it'd be cool if everyone taped, transferred, and edited shows too. and furthermore: taped, transferred, and edited equal amounts of shows as well. :lol4::lol4:

uni-fi
2011-01-29, 11:12 AM
this ain't junior high, we're all adults, and alot of it is just plain retarted!


BTW, B_K doesn't like that word, and if you don't stop using it, he's gonna take his ball and go home.

paddington
2011-01-29, 11:13 AM
yes, we would like to see everyone at 1:1 or better.

it'd be cool if everyone taped, transferred, and edited shows too. and furthermore: taped, transferred, and edited equal amounts of shows as well. :lol4::lol4:


Right. The point you are trying to make is exactly why we don't enforce any sort of ratio requirments.


If you have an ugly car, people may make fun of you from time to time. Doesn't mean your driver's license will be taken away and you can just ignore the people, if you want. Or argue with them.

Either way, you can still drive.

paddington
2011-01-29, 11:22 AM
btw, we're just not going to modify ratios based on posting in the lounge, or anywhere else.

The ratio figure is just informational - but if we start jacking around with them, they'll mean nothing at all. They'll remain an accurate picture of what a user uploads and downloads for the foreseeable future.

Hopefully, users / members can keep in mind that the upload / download of data is only one way people can contribute here and the staff takes all that into account when it comes up.

There are a lot of people here with giant upload figures that deserve to wear that like a badge. They are the people that make the site run. None of this shit the 12 of us are talking about in here really amounts to much of anything, but those guys bring the joy of music to tens of thousands of people so we won't be "padding" the ratios of users just for posting in the lounge.

sysoverload
2011-01-29, 11:23 AM
and one person's ugly car is another's uniquely quirky car. but it'd be pretty silly, not to mention impossible, if everyone drove the same model and color car.

paddington
2011-01-29, 11:24 AM
depending on what part of the 20th century and what part of the world, but yes. I agree.

bluzman
2011-01-29, 11:27 AM
...and if everybody followed the same "rules of the road".

sysoverload
2011-01-29, 11:27 AM
the car analogy is breaking down :(

uni-fi
2011-01-29, 11:29 AM
btw, we're just not going to modify ratios based on posting in the lounge, or anywhere else.

The ratio figure is just informational - but if we start jacking around with them, they'll mean nothing at all. They'll remain an accurate picture of what a user uploads and downloads for the foreseeable future.

Hopefully, users / members can keep in mind that the upload / download of data is only one way people can contribute here and the staff takes all that into account when it comes up.

There are a lot of people here with giant upload figures that deserve to wear that like a badge. They are the people that make the site run. None of this shit the 12 of us are talking about in here really amounts to much of anything, but those guys bring the joy of music to tens of thousands of people so we won't be "padding" the ratios of users just for posting in the lounge.


I am going to propose it to you as well James...You have not offered up any solution for anything...Offer something up. It's too easy to give an excuse of why you can't, but I have yet to see one word of what you can...

Problem or Solution...which one are you?

paddington
2011-01-29, 11:38 AM
btw, we're just not going to modify ratios based on posting in the lounge, or anywhere else.

The ratio figure is just informational - but if we start jacking around with them, they'll mean nothing at all. They'll remain an accurate picture of what a user uploads and downloads for the foreseeable future.

Hopefully, users / members can keep in mind that the upload / download of data is only one way people can contribute here and the staff takes all that into account when it comes up.

There are a lot of people here with giant upload figures that deserve to wear that like a badge. They are the people that make the site run. None of this shit the 12 of us are talking about in here really amounts to much of anything, but those guys bring the joy of music to tens of thousands of people so we won't be "padding" the ratios of users just for posting in the lounge.


I am going to propose it to you as well James...You have not offered up any solution for anything...Offer something up. It's too easy to give an excuse of why you can't, but I have yet to see one word of what you can...

Problem or Solution...which one are you?


:hmm: The post you quoted, I was talking about ratios and how they are 100% unlrelated to the Lounge.

harpsichord
2011-01-29, 02:27 PM
once AGAIN would like to hear what others have to say.



I said my piece in the poll thread, but I'll add this here: why do so many people want to 'FIX' the Lounge? There are other 'social' forums on the site that are much more civil - why not just hang out there? Right now it seems that most of the cretins hang in the Lounge. Why not just leave them there and avoid them? I seriously doubt you'll rehabilitate them with more rules or stricter enforcement, and I for one like having them in one place that I can avoid. I'd hate to see them spread to other areas.

If you like the 'banter' in The Lounge, then deal with the resultant flack. If not, go somewhere else and make THAT forum more enjoyable, and active. It should be much easier to prevent poor behavior starting up in The Piano Bar, for example, than to undo the bad habits ingrained in the denizens of The Lounge.

I came here for the music, and it took a while till I started to spend time in the forums. While I value a lot of the discussions in other forums, I don't look to TTD as a 'social' outlet precisely because of the behavior of many of The Lounge Lizards. I wouldn't miss them if they were gone, and fortunately there are already other forums where people behave as civil humans.

fwiw

rspencer
2011-01-29, 05:08 PM
Maybe it's that those with the most complaints spend less time in the Lounge, but I think the overall opinion is a bit skewed. There's a lot of "this is bad" & "that is bad" but few seem to realize the literally hundreds of posts every day that are exactly the friendly banter & chatter & discussion that people here keep harping that we need.

I think there's a bit of painting with a very broad brush. The vast majority of music file sharing online is of copyrighted material. We don't do that here. Yet if you start to describe the site to someone who hasn't spent time here, what do you think their first assumption is?

Marc
2011-01-29, 05:21 PM
Maybe it's that those with the most complaints spend less time in the Lounge, but I think the overall opinion is a bit skewed. There's a lot of "this is bad" & "that is bad" but few seem to realize the literally hundreds of posts every day that are exactly the friendly banter & chatter & discussion that people here keep harping that we need.

:stfu:

ep620
2011-01-29, 05:29 PM
cretins hang in the Lounge


cretins? :wtf:



You must be completely missing one of these. :disbelief
A sense of humor is an absolute MUST

direwolf-pgh
2011-01-29, 05:35 PM
Here we are having a conversation in a heavily moderated area of the Den with a big "whats your thoughts" sign on the front page and no one but the regulars are talking.

The two threads should have been PW free.. agreed.

daddyray
2011-01-29, 05:54 PM
is there a time frame upon which we will know this has been put to rest?

harpsichord
2011-01-29, 05:55 PM
cretins? :wtf:



You must be completely missing one of these. :disbelief


A sense of humor doesn't mean laughing at stupid shit that isn't, in fact, funny at all. But, to each their own. :D

uni-fi
2011-01-29, 07:56 PM
:hmm: The post you quoted, I was talking about ratios and how they are 100% unlrelated to the Lounge.

I am speaking in general terms...I am not speaking solely about the lounge either. However, the issue of not having people show up in the lounge is a numbers game. So group a few things together that is a positive outcome for everyone.

People coming to the lounge - Positive
People staying and posting in the lounge - Positive
People earning a small amount of share ratio, or at least an incentive to be there - Positive

Once you've made your first two hundred or so posts, you're pretty much hooked. It's getting people to make those posts that no one can seem to grasp.

I am not trying to beat the whole "give people incentives for posting in the lounge" to death, it was simply an idea of someone else's that had merit. I am certain that it would be more work than it was worth to track and whatnot.

However, your first sentence was directly related to posting in the lounge, and how your not going to give anyone an incentive...my retort was, what is your idea??? You've beat down every idea that has been proposed, so what is your idea?

A simple link in an email will get them there, but it's not always rainbows and sunshine in there. Maybe an incentive is just the thing to keep people there long enough to see it for what it really is...A pretty cool place. You can make it anything you want, but if you (I mean everyone except you) want to increase the traffic in that section of the site, that is how it's going to get done the quickest, with the least negative impact.



:cheers:

ep620
2011-01-29, 08:41 PM
A sense of humor doesn't mean laughing at stupid shit that isn't, in fact, funny at all. But, to each their own. :D

I never said the lounge was loaded with funny shit. But I think anyone who refers to a group of people they hardly know as "cretins" is someone who takes themselves and other things a bit too seriously. But, to each their own.

Good luck with that. :wave:

paddington
2011-01-29, 10:27 PM
People coming to the lounge - Positive
People staying and posting in the lounge - Positive
People earning a small amount of share ratio, or at least an incentive to be there - Positive



dude, I am not trying to "beat down every idea", but we're not going to pay people to post in the lounge. Surely, if you thought about it, you'd come to the conclusion that would very, very lame?

Don't confuse my participation in the thread as "beating down ideas". It is simply the case that no one has proposed anything that will attract more people to be lounge regulars.

Tappy
2011-01-29, 11:30 PM
dude, I am not trying to "beat down every idea", but we're not going to pay people to post in the lounge. Surely, if you thought about it, you'd come to the conclusion that would very, very lame?

Don't confuse my participation in the thread as "beating down ideas". It is simply the case that no one has proposed anything that will attract more people to be lounge regulars.

Define 'lame'.

Surely it's crossed your mind that some people won't go in there for fear of being attacked because of their ratio.

And yes, I agree with you that you weren't "beating down ideas", you just tried beating me down by commenting on how i should know ratios are
just "informational" and that i should know better because of how long i've been here instead of discussing the idea i put forward. And you wonder why no one wants to go in there?

Several times you have been asked to put forward your ideas but each time you have managed to find your way around answering it. Perhaps we should call you sidestep because that's what you seem to be doing.

paddington
2011-01-29, 11:33 PM
My ideas about what?

I didn;t bring this topic up.


offering to modify people's statistics for posting in the lounge doesn't make any sense.

The UL/DL numbers are just that.

AAR.oner
2011-01-30, 09:07 AM
this ones a bit dissertation, sorry about that :wave:



With all due respect Aaron, aren't you usually one of the first to hop on the attack wagon at the site of a bad ratio? And like I said before, god forbid anyone attempt to defend that ratio...it's all over after that. That is the type of stuff that makes people leave the lounge, and you sir are as guilty as all of us (me included).

i'd hardly say i was "the first one to hop on the attack wagon", but yes i've busted on some folks with bad ratios...but i think you'd find that many times i've defended someone new or that i know has bandwidth issues by pointing out you can contribute in other ways, if the problem truly is their ISP/speeds..offering vines, b&p's, freebies, etc -- all ways of giving back...other times when i mighta "crossed the line", yeah i made a mistake...and i see where the hostility has got us to in our GD forums

now, when someones on this site for 4 yrs, has d/l'ed 800GB and u/l'ed 20GB, hit & runs on every torrent, and ignores all suggestions to give back in other ways -- then yeah, they're just a thief and i got no problems callin em out


We understand what the issues are, but once again, you have reiterated the issues without any solution. We have 11 pages of this discussion with about 4 or 5 attempted solutions in it. So lets try to warm up to some of these, and quit with the incessant reiteration of the same old argument. The way I see it, at this point each person is either part of the problem, or part of the solution.

agreed, and i've reiterated my ideas for the solution numerous times, both here and in staff discussions...but i'll save that for later & comment on yer proposal since it seems my solution came off as "the same old argument"


- Sending out emails with the registration, and having a link to a welcome thread in the registration page, and then even sending out a PM to the current members with an invite will all generate new interest in the lounge.

got no problems with that, sounds good [although it could be massive amounts of work for staff, not sure how mass pm's wrk in our Admin panel]]

- Giving users a way to up their ratio outside of simply U/L is a great way to help out some of the bad ratio's around here. And you're not going to PW 500 posts in a day (well maybe some of the people around here could give that one a run for it's money)...But most of the people that have been around for a while that hang in the torrent section only have like 80 to 90 posts for 5 years. Let's not just be part of the problem, let's give them a solution, one that gets them hanging in the lounge and getting to know other people around here. Because obviously the charm that is exuded by the current members negates an incentive to keep people hanging around. And unless you're going to ban someone for being an asshole, I don't see how you're going to change that.

nope...we don't enforce ratios, and we certainly don't give u/l credits...thats something everyone on staff has always agreed upon



- Let's cull the trolling aliases. 90% of the lounge regulars have aliases that pop up from time to time, but there are only a select few that are used for trolling. We all know who they are...If that is a serious problem, kill it. I have no issues with aliases being used for fun, but outside of that, give them the axe.

agreed 100%...we do know who they are, and i don't think its hard to differentiate between the vast many that are just for fun & the handful who are just there to start shit



With that said, idle threats of leaving over something like not having enough stimulating conversation in the lounge, or enough PW's to keep it interesting enough for you is just as childish and immature as anything else here. Comments like that are what drive people away. If you want to call it a playground full of bully's, then why are you making threats to take your ball and go home? Once again, part of the problem or part of the solution...which one are you going to be?

no idle threats of taking my ball & going home, it obviously came off wrong from what i intended...i have no intentions leaving TTD, been on staff here longer than just about anyone [except Lynne], and care about this site more than most know [i rarely even trade anymore, but still want to see this hobby flourish and standards like TTD's continue to push boundaries]

what i meant by my comment was there's plenty more cool forums to go shoot the shit and PW at, if we're uninterested in bring back some life to our GD discussion areas like they used to be, then i can simply PW somewhere else...i still'd be here to mod the Tapers/SnailMail/Techno forums...oh and bust folks balls for shitty ratios ;)





in addition to the suggestions you made above that i liked, i'll reiterate my proposed solution for all to see......

i'm NOT proposing making the Lounge some kid-friendly kum-ba-ya kinda love fest, i love the Lounge for what its always been...i love the TVheadassphuck side of it, the shit talking, the random crap we talk about, the good-natured feuds we have, the true friends i've made over the years from just PW'ing...and no i don't want to "go post in the Piano Bar", i'd just be talkin to myself about some obscure French pressing of a Throbbing Gristle 7" :lol4: ...for me, this is just about making the Lounge more approachable and enojyable like it used to be -- very simple, not heavy handed in the least, and wouldn't require any additional staff as dcbullet does an excellent job overseein the Lounge

THE SOLUTION: ENFORCE THE RULES WE ALREADY HAVE IN PLACE, NO MATTER WHO THE OFFENDER IS...no special privileges - not for old school pw's, not for tapers, not for staff

AAR.oner
2011-01-30, 09:10 AM
Aaron I guess I was not clear....I do not disagree with what you say in the least

Sure let's have a better bigger lounge.....how can we be sure the actions taken will have the desired effect....which actions in what order. there is the rub...only the alias removal (Alias Assassin subforum!) sounds clearly practical of the ideas that have been floated (and there have been very few ideas put forth mostly just folks hoping for better days)


see last paragraph of my post above :wave:

mdshrk1
2011-01-30, 09:29 AM
this ones a bit dissertation, sorry about that :wave:

No, you're not. :nono:



THE SOLUTION: ENFORCE THE RULES WE ALREADY HAVE IN PLACE, NO MATTER WHO THE OFFENDER IS...no special privileges - not for old school pw's, not for tapers, not for staff

Hear, hear. :duh:

AAR.oner
2011-01-30, 10:14 AM
No, you're not. :nono:


:lol: true

daddyray
2011-01-30, 10:28 AM
a solid proposal Aaron, clearly worded

Cornelious Jerome Garcia Oppenheimer
2011-01-30, 01:01 PM
i'm NOT proposing making the Lounge some kid-friendly kum-ba-ya kinda love fest, i love the Lounge for what its always been...i love the TVheadassphuck side of it, the shit talking, the random crap we talk about, the good-natured feuds we have, the true friends i've made over the years from just PW'ing...and no i don't want to "go post in the Piano Bar", i'd just be talkin to myself about some obscure French pressing of a Throbbing Gristle 7" :lol4: ...for me, this is just about making the Lounge more approachable and enojyable like it used to be -- very simple, not heavy handed in the least, and wouldn't require any additional staff as dcbullet does an excellent job overseein the Lounge

THE SOLUTION: ENFORCE THE RULES WE ALREADY HAVE IN PLACE, NO MATTER WHO THE OFFENDER IS...no special privileges - not for old school pw's, not for tapers, not for staff

Well put. :thumbsup

ohkeepa
2011-02-02, 09:58 AM
I agree with some of the things bill is saying, especially about the aliases (which I've brought up before)

direwolf-pgh
2011-02-02, 10:50 AM
one could argue the alias' may be the only reason some enjoy the lounge - they are not going away. I'd certainly be shocked if it ever happened.
I am certain the large shift of regulars posting in alias drove people off - but no one wants to hear that, right? whatever

on the other hand, considering there are only x many users that post.. is it really that difficult? perhaps to some.