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View Full Version : Are there different "types" of SHNs?


katnapz
2004-11-26, 09:09 AM
I've noticed that when I play SHN files on winamp, there are some that I'm able to fast-forward through, and others that I can't do so. Now, I'm not talking about ".skt" files being included (skt files are winamp specific files that can be created by some SHN generation programs that allow moving around in the song). These are SHN files that have no associated skt files.
I use winamp on a couple different computers (98SE and XP systems) and find this the same on all of them for the same songs.
Just curious what kind of programs create what type of SHN files and if they're all the same (one kind isn't better than the other). I actually never noticed this until I started getting into torrents.

RainDawg
2004-11-26, 09:26 AM
What you're noticing is files that do or do not have seek tables. Sometimes, as you've noticed, .skt files are included as a separate file, and these will seek all of the time. Many times, during SHN conversion, the encoder will include the seek tables "appended" to the end of the file. So, to you, they are invisible but your winamp will seek them. Sometimes, they are not, and winamp won't. No, the encoding of the audio data is not specific to any particular software, and will be identical regardless of which software is used. The creation of external or appended (or none at all) seektables is software specific, and non-seeking files just means that the person who did the conversion made this critical oversight.

As a note, .skt tables are not Winamp specific, they are independant of the playback software you use. Any time you wish to playback SHNs and wish to seek, you will need seektables either appended or included, no matter which program you use.

Now, to get around this annoyance, you need to get rid of Winamp completely and switch to foobar2000. The SHN decoder will dynamically create seek tables for files without them and store them in a temporary directory, so that ALL SHN files, whether appended with them or not, will seek. To the end user, this functionality is invisible but goddamn is it useful if you play back SHN files.

There are also at least 50 other ways that foobar2000 beats the piss out of Winamp in terms of it's technical abilities...

By the way, I love that avatar you've got! :)

katnapz
2004-11-26, 09:53 AM
Is there any way to tell by looking at a file if it will seek (never seen anything under the files Properties)? I never knew that seek files could be invisible (magic legs Lt Dan). Has that always been the case since SHN was invented?

Boy are you in for a big laugh when I tell you what version of winamp I'm using...2.9X...yes, on all my computers! I know that I should go with a newer vesion (or a different program), but I'm so used to using it, plus it's the only one that I've found that goes under the radar screen at work when they scan for "unofficial" software (guess they aren't looking for something that old). I'll give foobar2000 a try sometime.

Thanks for the compliment on the avatar...not as well known as your's as I think you've had that one for a looong time.

BTW, you saw the DVD based version of my list when I contacted you "pre-TTD", but thought you'd like to look at the offer I've got up in the Trades section in case you want anything. Getting rid of those CDR's.
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=858
By the time I got your e-mail with the invite I was deep in some stuff at work and have felt like a slime for not getting any torrents up since so hopefully this can help spread things around some. You've got an interesting Tenacious D that I'd be looking at if you do take part :) ....


So, to you, they are invisible but your winamp will seek them.
Now, to get around this annoyance, you need to get rid of Winamp completely and switch to foobar2000.
There are also at least 50 other ways that foobar2000 beats the piss out of Winamp in terms of it's technical abilities...

By the way, I love that avatar you've got! :)

RainDawg
2004-11-26, 10:11 AM
Is there any way to tell by looking at a file if it will seek (never seen anything under the files Properties)? I never knew that seek files could be invisible (magic legs Lt Dan). Has that always been the case since SHN was invented?

No, it's not been the case since SHN was invented...in fact, the whole seektable thing was a band-aid that was added on because someone realized they dropped the ball by not making SHN files inherantly seekable. It's been a long time since I used Winamp, but I know that the version I was using (probably a function added with the shn plugin) told you whether is was seeking or non-seeking in the "file properites" window.

To further confuse this issue, as of the most recent release of shorten (why they are still developing this out of date codec is beyond me, but I digress) there is a new version of seek tables. So, that means your files now have 5 different options:
No seektables
Seektable type A added as a separate file
Seektable type B added as a separate file
Seektable type A appended to the file
Seektable type B appended to the file

There is a software method for determining which of these options is the case, but I've long since given up caring to be honest. In fact, you'll notice in all my most recent tradelist entries I note "? Seek Tables" because I simply don't know, didn't bother to check, and don't care which of the above it is. With foobar, they all playback the same way, so it becomes moot...

ssamadhi97 is a user here who is much more well-versed with SHN files and seektables than I am...maybe PM him and ask what methods you can use to determine what, if any, seektable is appended to your SHN file.

Now, one more point, the Winamp you have is probably the best...most people who are still hanging onto this program (is Five in the house? ;)) recommend something pre-v3 as more recent versions added bloat and adware, but no new functionality. If you prefer this software, my advice is to not update the version. There's a short discussion about that here:
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/faq.php?faq=playing#faq_winamp

RainDawg
2004-11-26, 10:19 AM
BTW, you saw the DVD based version of my list when I contacted you "pre-TTD", but thought you'd like to look at the offer I've got up in the Trades section in case you want anything. Getting rid of those CDR's.
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=858
By the time I got your e-mail with the invite I was deep in some stuff at work and have felt like a slime for not getting any torrents up since so hopefully this can help spread things around some. You've got an interesting Tenacious D that I'd be looking at if you do take part :) ....
I've been out of CDR trading for quite some time...I just prefer looking at lineages and complete info before I get a set. But, if you let me know which D one you're looking at, I'll add it to my list of stuff to seed here, and then everyone can take part.

katnapz
2004-11-26, 11:07 AM
It's the "Anaheim, CA 10/20/2002"
It's tridpod shot, which means I won't get seasick watching it on my big TV. :(

I wouldn't have thought it possible, but I actually get a bit green under the gills watching a show with a bobbing camera when I'm watching it full size. Last one I watched like that was the Guns N Roses show where he jumps into the crowd and there's a riot afterwards. I didn't notice until the first wave hit me, then I had to lay down for awhile...

Thanks for the offer to put it up. I know your list is long so take your time :)

I've been out of CDR trading for quite some time...I just prefer looking at lineages and complete info before I get a set. But, if you let me know which D one you're looking at, I'll add it to my list of stuff to seed here, and then everyone can take part.

Five
2004-11-26, 12:09 PM
Now, one more point, the Winamp you have is probably the best...most people who are still hanging onto this program (is Five in the house? ;)) recommend something pre-v3 as more recent versions added bloat and adware, but no new functionality. If you prefer this software, my advice is to not update the version. There's a short discussion about that here:
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/faq.php?faq=playing#faq_winamp
Yes, I'm the resident WinAmp guy. Check "WinAmp Config" in my sig for mostly everything you need to know. The thing with WinAmp is that it's a pain in the butt to configure, and for no good reason. V3 sucked large and was abandonned, then for V5 they added the option to purchase it again, adding cd burning and ripping capabilities (woooo! just what I always needed. how much? :rolleyes: ). I haven't proven the "spyware" thing, most certainly the newest version is free of it (just tell it you don't want to report anonymous user stats during installation, as it was in the old days).

As far as I can tell, SHN is only seekable on WinAmp when the external .skt files are included. I've tried v3 and v5, I'm using v2.81 :D

RainDawg
2004-11-26, 01:00 PM
Just to confirm, I've not found "spyware" in Winamp, but I have certianly found it to be "adware", or at least "nagware". There, of course, subtle differences in these terms with spyware being the most malicious.

Again, stick with 2.x and you'll avoid all this....

katnapz
2004-11-26, 07:20 PM
I've tried v3 and v5, I'm using v2.81 :D


People will probably look at me strange for this confession, but I not only use my Winamp 2.9X for music but I usually play 99% of the video material through it on the computer I have hooked up to my home theater system.

I'm sure that there's other players out there with lots of bells and whistles but it's just so darn easy to use. I used to have a plug-in installed, that I managed to get from someone on line a couple years back (after the plug-in had stopped being distributed), that you can configure to play everything in a root folder AND all the child directories (I'd set up one aud and one vid folder with shows underneigth). Depending on whether I wanted my own radio station or my own version of "kTV" I just set it and let it go 24/7. When I'd be flipping through my channels I'd come across a music video or concert and go, "Oh wow...when did this come on?...wish I had seen the beginning of this", then realize it was my own network/channel...

Five
2004-11-26, 07:38 PM
lol same here! 2.81 is a version from before they added video, and to this day I use vid4wa (available here (http://rc4wa.narod.ru/)) for 99% of all video media. I think I'm using an older version of the plug, and last time I checked it outperformed the stock video plugin that comes with v2.90-2.95. When I get stuck, I switch over to Media Player Classic or VLC.

katnapz
2004-11-26, 10:03 PM
Hey!, I never heard of this plugin (vid4wa)...the site's setup a bit awkward so I'll dig through it tomorrow when I'm more awake, but this really has my interest. Thanks for the link!
I actually have a dedicated remote for my home theater computer with an infared sensor that lets me control everything from winamp to the mouse (even some rudamentory typing-phone keyboard style-so I don't do that often)...ultimate couch potato experience :)

Are you refering to Media Player 6 when you say classic? I use that as my back-up too...anything higher is too "creepy" and takes up more resources than I like. It's very rare I have to use it though. Once in awhile a DivX or Xvid gives me problems in winamp.

lol same here! 2.81 is a version from before they added video, and to this day I use vid4wa (available here (http://rc4wa.narod.ru/)) for 99% of all video media. I think I'm using an older version of the plug, and last time I checked it outperformed the stock video plugin that comes with v2.90-2.95. When I get stuck, I switch over to Media Player Classic or VLC.

crazee_canuck
2004-12-01, 07:57 PM
Media Player Classic (http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=82303&package_id=84358) is a great application for video. It plays virtually anything.

(and no, it's not WMP 6.4)

Five
2004-12-02, 03:55 AM
Media Player Classic (http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=82303&package_id=84358) is a great application for video. It plays virtually anything.

(and no, it's not WMP 6.4)
Yeah, even real and quicktime!
http://www.free-codecs.com/download/Media_Player_Classic.htm
http://www.free-codecs.com/download/QuickTime_Alternative.htm
http://www.free-codecs.com/download/Real_Alternative.htm

there's a plug for WinAmp to play Real here:
http://www.free-codecs.com/download/Real_Audio_Input_Plugin_for_Winamp.htm
...but there's the hitch that you have to have Real installed to make it work :rolleyes:

There used to be a QT plug for WinAmp but it never worked right. Happy hunting!

wharfrat73
2004-12-02, 06:36 AM
You can tell shns are seekable by running shntool info:
file name: Track 01.shn
handled by: shn format module
length: 5:22.17
WAVE format: 0x0001 (Microsoft PCM)
channels: 2
bits/sample: 16
samples/sec: 44100
average bytes/sec: 176400
rate (calculated): 176400
block align: 4
header size: 44 bytes
data size: 56840784 bytes
chunk size: 56840820 bytes
total size (chunk size + 8): 56840828 bytes
actual file size: 29095025
file is compressed: yes
compression ratio: 0.5119
CD-quality properties:
CD quality: yes
cut on sector boundary: yes
sector misalignment: 0 bytes
long enough to be burned: yes
WAVE properties:
non-canonical header: no
extra RIFF chunks: no
Possible problems:
file contains ID3v2 tag: no
data chunk block-aligned: yes
inconsistent header: no
file probably truncated: unknown
junk appended to file: unknown
odd data size has pad byte: n/a
Extra shn-specific info:
seekable: no

Granted it's a lot of reading for that one piece of information. If you set up a batch file:
@<hidden> off
%~d1 & cd %*
for %%T in (shn flac wav ape) do if exist *.%%T shntool info *.%%T>>shntool.info.txt
pause

it's not that hard to do.

The best (by far) player I know of is foobar2000. It supports shn and flac. It generates seek tables on the fly for non seeking shns. Grab the "Special" version here. (http://www.foobar2000.org/download.html)