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DextrousJ
2005-06-10, 11:54 PM
Alright, I am a new member of this torrent trading thing and from what i see its looks quite exciting. So when i go to download a torrent file, the download speed starts out pretty good, but then drops down to like "5kbps" and sometimes all the way to "0kbps". I look at all the FAQ's dealing with this issue and did what it said by downloading a new client, and did my very best to open the port in my firewall (6881) like it said, but still I get crapy download rates. My status is always yellow. I need someone to take me step by step on what to do to get these torrent files downloaded!......please :(

Ted
2005-06-11, 12:38 AM
What torrent client are you using?
What firewall (if any) are you using?
Are you using a router? If so, which one?

After answering these questions, we'll be better able to help you.
Oh, and welcome :)

DextrousJ
2005-06-11, 01:22 AM
Torrent Client: Azureus
FireWall: I guess just the Windows XP Firewall
Router: if thats like a modem or something I have cable and its a D-Link

are these detailed enough?? sry if its not, I dont know too much about all this yet.....

and thnx for that welcome, Ted :D

DextrousJ
2005-06-11, 01:39 AM
I did find out one thing just a secon ago.... my system is able to initiate connections with other peers (known as local connections, or L), but I am not able to receive connections initiated from other peers (known as remote connections, or R). When I am not able to receive remote connections, this is nearly always to do with incorrectly forwarded ports, from my router or firewall. <<<< I quoted that from a guide.... :lol:

I looked at all the connections I had on Azureus and all of them are L (local)... so I guess its a router problem.... I still need help with that! :hmm:

Ted
2005-06-11, 01:43 AM
That's detailed enough, thanks. I'm sorry, but I can't be of much help since I'm not familiar with Azureus. Since you stated that you opened the ports in your firewall, I assume that's not the problem. The other thing I was thinking that could be giving you trouble is that the ports also need to be forwarded in your router (if you had one), but seeing as you're not sure what a router is, I think it's safe to assume you don't have one, so no settings there to worry about.

The only thing I can think of, barring any settings that need to be checked in Azureus, is to make absolutely sure you've opened the correct ports in your firewall for TCP traffic. I'm not familiar with Windows' firewall, so maybe someone else can help out with that too.

EDIT: After reading your next post, it does indeed sound like a port forwarding problem. To be sure whether you have a router or not, just follow the cable from where it comes into your house or apt. and see where it goes. If it goes into anything but a splitter/your television(s)/or the cable modem, you probably do have a router. I can't imagine you having one and not knowing it though. It's something you have to purchase and install yourself. It's not something the cable company installs (at least without your knowledge). Do you have more than one computer that accesses the internet? If so, you may have a router.

I'm going to assume again, that you don't (by your previous response) and have you double check the Windows firewall to see that you opened or forwarded the correct ports. Also, check Azureus' settings to make sure the port is set to 6881, same as the one you opened in your first post.

I'll see if I can Google a tutorial for the Windows firewall in relation to opening ports unless someone else beats me to it.

Ted
2005-06-11, 01:59 AM
Ok, I found this for you. It'll tell you how to open ports in the Windows firewall. Something to consider also is that if you plan on opening more than one bitorrent client at a time, you'll need a seperate port for each client. So I suggest opening a few ports to save you the possible hassles of trying to figure out what's wrong later. Use ports 6881~6885 and you'll be able to open five clients simultaneously. I doubt you'll need to since I think Aureous allows mutliple torrents to be downloading at the same time. If it does, the only port you'll need is 6881.


Here are the directions for opening ports in the Windows XP firewall:

Open the 'Network Connections' folder (click Start, then Control Panel, then Network and Internet Connections, then Network Connections.)
Click the shared connection or the Internet connection that is protected by Internet Connection Firewall, and then, under Tasks, click Change settings of this connection.
On the Advanced tab, click Settings.
For each port you wish to forward, (i.e. 6881, 6882, ... 6889) do the following:


On the Services tab, click Add and enter all of the following information:
In Description of service, type an easily recognized name for the service, such as "BitTorrent".
In Name or IP address of the computer hosting this service on your network, enter 127.0.0.1 (this means "the local machine.")
In both External and Internal port number for this service, enter the port number, e.g. 6881.
Select TCP, then OK.

DextrousJ
2005-06-11, 08:36 AM
Wow Ted, I really appreciate all the effort u have put in to help me.....

Well, after looking at what you described as a router, I definetly know that I do have one. I have Comcast Highspeed Cabel service with a D-Link System Modem for a wireless connection throughout my house. I am using a laptop computer with a wireless internet card to comunicate to the modem, and I DO have one other computer one the network. (I just didn't know that it ws called a "router"....lol...sry).

I have already done those instructions u gave me in the last post, but I still get yellow as my download status. Do I have to do anything with the router itself?.....

Ted
2005-06-11, 09:13 AM
Ok, since you've determined you have a router, you also must forward the same port(s) that you opened in the firewall, ie. 6881~6885. I'll need the name/model number of the router so I can try and find out how to get to the settings although, you "should" know. You should have a name/password for the router's settings and a url to get to the settings - such as http://192.168.1.1 (it may be different for your model).

If you already know how to get to the settings, all you have to do is look for the "Port Forwarding" or "forwarding" section and enter the LAN IP address (see below) of the computer that you will use to run the bitorrent client. You'll also have to enter the port(s) mentioned above and make sure you forward the ports for TCP only (UDP is not necessarly for bitorrent).

There are two IPs you have, since you're on a network - your WAN IP and your LAN IP. The LAN IP is the one you're concerned with here. Enter that one in the router's port forwarding settings. You can find your LAN IP somewhere in the router's settings. I'm not sure what section it would be in because I don't know the make/model of your router. Look for something similar to "DHCP Clients Table" and then look for the name of the computer you're running the client on. THAT IP is the LAN IP for that particular computer. If you can't find it, go to the Start Button and look for the shortcut named "Command Prompt". Click it and enter (without quotes), "systeminfo" and hit Enter. After a few seconds, you'll get some info about your system (surprise :p). At the bottom of that info, you'll see "IP address(es)" - that is your LAN IP - DO NOT use the DHCP Server address.

I thik I covered it all. Try finding your router's settings and entering the info above. If you have problems, post back with make/model of router.

Note that your LAN IP may change. If you ever have problems with your client after it has been working and you haven't made any changes, check your LAN IP again.

jcrab66
2005-06-11, 10:14 AM
Go HERE (http://portforward.com/routers.htm) and find your model number than follow the instructions and you should be ok....

uhclem
2005-06-11, 11:34 AM
I have recently discovered that if your router has UPnP capability, it is much better to turn that on and turn on Azureus' UPnP function, and don't bother forwarding any ports in your router. (You will still have to make sure that your WinXP firewall has an open port, however).

The reason UPnP is superior is that you don't have to mess around with port forwarding, and it's more secure than port forwarding because the ports are opened only by the application you want, and only when the application is running. Otherwise the port is closed.

I have the UPnP feature running on my router with both Azureus and BitTornado and it works great. Azureus was the easiest to deal with as it didn't require me to make any adjustments to my router (BitTornado did). You can see in the UPnP log that Azureus is using UPnP, and you can use the test feature to make sure that the port is open for Azureus. I got it working with BitTornado too, but it was a bit more tricky. But it was less work than port forwarding.

mike1061
2005-06-11, 06:50 PM
DextrousJ
You are deffinatly firewalled. the link to portforward.com has the answers. You need to port forward a port in your Router.

uhclem
do you have a guide, link, or some info on your way. I use Azureus but have no idea what you are talking about, and a Belkin router.
Thanks Mike

Ted
2005-06-11, 09:27 PM
I have recently discovered that if your router has UPnP capability, it is much better to turn that on and turn on Azureus' UPnP function, and don't bother forwarding any ports in your router. (You will still have to make sure that your WinXP firewall has an open port, however).

The reason UPnP is superior is that you don't have to mess around with port forwarding, and it's more secure than port forwarding because the ports are opened only by the application you want, and only when the application is running. Otherwise the port is closed.

I have the UPnP feature running on my router with both Azureus and BitTornado and it works great. Azureus was the easiest to deal with as it didn't require me to make any adjustments to my router (BitTornado did). You can see in the UPnP log that Azureus is using UPnP, and you can use the test feature to make sure that the port is open for Azureus. I got it working with BitTornado too, but it was a bit more tricky. But it was less work than port forwarding.Sounds like a good recommendation. I'm still learning about the ins/outs of the security of UPnP, so I was hesitant to suggest it. I just gave the "tried and true" method I've used for so long.

@<hidden> - UPnP (Universal Plug and Play) basically opens/closes ports dynamically for you instead of having to manually forward them in a router, for example. It is said that it is more secure, but I don't know enough about it yet to confidently advise it, though MANY knowledgable people however, do. You need to have UPnP aware hardware (router) and also the software (Windows ME/XP). Despite what Steve Gibson (a moron) says, it is NOT a bad thing. If you've heard of him, he was saying (when XP was released) that it was a bad security risk without really understanding what it actually was and how it worked. The quick and dirty of how it works is that when a program (your bitorrent client for example) needs to access the internet, UPnP "senses" what port it needs and opens that port only for the amount of time necessary, then closes it again. Two services in XP are needed for it to operate. Steve Gibson was telling people to shut down those services and even wrote a little program to do it, but without those serives running, MSN Messanger wouldn't work under some circumstances and those people who stopped the services had no clue as to why, as did a lot of people trying to help them get MSN Messanger working again.

In the near future, I plan on playing around with it and learning more, but for now, I feel more comfortable in suggesting the alternative method of manually forwarding ports because I can help diagnose problems easier.

uhclem
2005-06-11, 10:28 PM
I think you are confusing UPnP operating at the hardware level versus UPnP operating at the OS level. Gibson believes that leaving it running at the OS level, i.e. as a WinXP service, as a default is a security risk. He's not the only one who thinks that. If you check his website you will see that he is not opposed to UPnP, just to having it turned on as a default at the OS level. He clearly states that people will want to turn UPnP on if they have a need for it. The view seems to be that the OS has no need to handle UPnP issues, which should be left up to the hardware that is using it, i.e. your router. Leave it to M$, of course, to write a program that requires UPnP at the OS level.

But I am talking about using it at the hardware level. In order to run UPnP via Azureus you just need a UPnP compliant router. You then turn on the Azureus UPnP feature and it will make use of your router's UPnP feature to dynamically open a port. This is more secure because the port is only open when Azureus is running, and only for Azureus. I use Azureus this way and I have the UPnP WinXP service turned off.

mike: You need to determine whether your belkin router has UPnP capability. Check the manual, the belkin website or your router's setup and see if UPnP capability exists. If it does, I might be able to help you set it up for Azureus.

Ted
2005-06-11, 11:16 PM
I was under the impression that the UPnP services had to be running in addition to the hardware being UPnP capable AND enabled for the whole thing to work. In other words (for example) if I was using Azureus (with UPnP enabled) and was hooked up to a router (also, with UPnP enabled), and running Win 98, it (the UPnP method) would not work - I would have to use the port forwarding method. So what you're saying is the UPnP method for the situation we have in this thread (Azureus and a router) would work on a Win98 computer (for example)?

EDIT: "Leave it to M$, of course, to write a program that requires UPnP at the OS level." <-- Is MSN Messenger the program to which you refer?

DextrousJ
2005-06-12, 12:33 AM
Dang, all yall really know about computers..... its all Greek to me.... as long as I can use a computer, recieve the benefits of using it, and be able to avoid problems, I am just fine..... lol.... but I guess to do that I have to learn Greek, right!... well here we go

Ted- again, thanks for using your knowledge of computers to help me with my problem here.... well, first off I need to say that I am only 16 and all the network hardware was bought and set up by my dad, so I don't know alot about how the system works or even what the model is. I just wanted to make that known so you could understand my position a little more.

I will look at the modem in the morning and tell you the name/model, because at this time it is pretty late at night here and the router (or modem, are they the same thing?) is in my parents room. (I definitely don't wanna go in there, cause God knows what could be goin on right now.... scary thoughts..... :disbelief )

mike1061
2005-06-12, 08:16 AM
Thanks for the replys. I do not think I need UPnP. The reason I say that is both of you said, UPnP only opens the port when you need it. Well mine is running 24/7 for almost two years now.
Thanks Mike

uhclem
2005-06-12, 09:31 AM
Ted, I have no idea if it would work on Win98. I am only referring to WinXP. What I'm saying is that Azureus' UPnP feature works with my UPnP enabled router and yet I have the WinXP UPnP Service disabled.

You shouldn't have the WinXP UPnP Service enabled unless you specifically need it. Yes I was referring to M$ Messenger. From what you had posted it sounded like it requires the UPnP Service to be enabled. But I don't have first hand experience with that as I don't use M$ Messenger.

Ted
2005-06-12, 09:43 AM
@<hidden> uhclem - If you're sure you have UPnP servies disabled, then I guess I'll have to use a different source to learn more about UPnP. My "old" source is apparently not too reliable. Thanks for the information and education ;).

@<hidden> mike1061 - It's not a matter of whether yo uneed UPnP or not. It's just a different method that appears to be more secure (not much, but still more). It also has the advantage of being easier to initially set up vs. the port forwarding method (also, a little less knowledge is required). Either one will work though.

DextrousJ
2005-06-12, 10:34 PM
ok!!! I finally have the name and model of my router. (I was busy ALL day) Also, I had a talk with my father and he educated me on what a router and a modem does, so now I better understand what you are asking.

My Router: DLink DI-614+

mike1061
2005-06-13, 07:11 AM
Thanks
Mike

uhclem
2005-06-13, 08:41 AM
Dextrous, your router is UPnP enabled so you should be able to get a green light in Azureus without having to forward any ports.

To turn UPnP on in Azureus, you need to have the UPnP Azureus plugin installed. I *think* that plugin automatically installs with Azureus, but if you don't have it, get it from the Azureus homepage. Once it's installed go to Options > Plugins > UPnP and check 'Enable UPnP'. For now, check all the other boxes too as they will help you find out whether UPnP is working properly. You can uncheck some of them later, such as the 'Report' ones.

You may or may not have to turn on UPnP within your router too. On my router I didn't have to turn it on at all. It seems that Azureus was able to activate it anyway. But that might not be the case with your router. To find out, exit Azureus and restart it. Look for the little popup window that tells you whether Azureus successfully mapped to the port it is listening on. If it did, you are all done and you should find that you are getting green lights. If it didn't map, then you probably need to turn UPnP on inside your router.

You can double check whether your port is opened by Azureus by selecting Tools > NAT / Firewall Test. This test will show you whether a particular port is opened for Azureus.

The UPnP feature shows a lot of promise. The biggest problem I have found so far is that there is precious little information about it out there. My impression is that all the latest routers have UPnP capability but they don't come with any documentation that explains it, leaving us all to figure it out for ourselves.

Ted
2005-06-13, 02:20 PM
The UPnP feature shows a lot of promise. The biggest problem I have found so far is that there is precious little information about it out there. My impression is that all the latest routers have UPnP capability but they don't come with any documentation that explains it, leaving us all to figure it out for ourselves.I couldn't find much info on it either, when I was looking a while ago. My router (Linksys BEFSR41) has the capability, but no documentation. At least none that was available when I got it. They may have something on the website now, though.

For those willing to learn, "hack" sites are around that explain how to modify the firmware to make your router do all kinds of stuff it wasn't originally programmed to do. As far as I know, most of the firmware is Linux based.

Good luck with your setup DextrousJ. I hope it works out for you soon. I know you must be anxious.

Thanks again to you, uhclem, for pointing out some of the details about UPnP that I was unaware of ;)

So much to learn, so little time...

DextrousJ
2005-06-13, 02:34 PM
uhclem- thanks for looking into that for me. How did you find out that my router is UPnP?

Well, I turned on UPnP in Azureus and checked all the other options below it, just as you said, but when I booted my Azureus up nothing happened. It didn't display a message if it was successful or anything. It might just be that I don't have it enabled on my router..... how do you do that :hmm: ?.... would you be able to tell me that?

Ted
2005-06-13, 02:39 PM
uhclem- thanks for looking into that for me. How did you find out that my router is UPnP?

Well, I turned on UPnP in Azureus and checked all the other options below it, just as you said, but when I booted my Azureus up nothing happened. It didn't display a message if it was successful or anything. It might just be that I don't have it enabled on my router..... how do you do that :hmm: ?.... would you be able to tell me that?Check out THIS LINK (http://support.dlink.com/products/view.asp?productid=DI-614%2B) for FAQ and other info about your router.

Check out THIS LINK (http://support.dlink.com/faq/view.asp?prod_id=1996&question=DI-524%20/%20DI-604%20/%20DI-614+%20/%20DI-624%20/%20DI-624_revB%20/%20DI-624_revC%20/%20DI-774%20/%20DI-784%20/%20DI-524_revC%20/%20DI-714P+) to find the answer to your question.

Post back if you still need help.

EDIT: @<hidden> - I was just browsing D-Link's site and found THIS PAGE. (http://support.dlink.com/faq/view.asp?prod_id=1147) Check out the last last image at the bottom of the page - "Networking Services" - and read the description fo rUPnP. Are you absolutely sure those services are not started (on your computer)? I'm not doubting your knowledge of your computer, but according to this info, UPnP would not work without the services running, which is what I originally thought.

DextrousJ
2005-06-13, 03:10 PM
OHH DARN!.... curse my computer ignorance.....

It said to put in my IP Address (default IP Address); I did then a popup box came and said to put in the username and password.... the website you gave me told me what the default of that was as well, but i guess my router isnt set to the defualt.....lol...... I dont know what to put. How would I find out what my username and password is? :confused:

DextrousJ
2005-06-13, 03:40 PM
Forget my last post.... I guess I am not as computer illiterate as I thought. I went through the FAQ's on that site you gave me and found how to restore the default settings on my router..... :D

DextrousJ
2005-06-13, 03:45 PM
well.... another downfall.... I followed the rest of the instructions, but when I go to tools in my router settings page I have no "UPNP SETTINGS" section for me to enable! Does ths mean that my router doesnt support UPnP?? :eek:

I attached a file to show you what all that I see.....

uhclem
2005-06-13, 03:46 PM
Ted, I double checked and I am positive that my UPnP (and SSDP) WinXP services are disabled. But Azureus is running as a type, with green lights, and the NAT check shows that the port I use is open. I think the statement in one of those links you posted, that you must have UPnP running on your WinXP computer is not entirely accurate. Unfortunately I can't find anything conclusive about this issue. I did find one site a few days ago, which I can't find now, that talked about how UPnP should only be running at the hardware level so there is little need to have it running as a WinXP service.

Dextrous, did you look at the UPnP log in Azureus? (Plugins > UPnP). It will give you some information on what's going on. I know that with my router I was able to get Azureus to map a port without even turning UPnP on in my router. BUT I do have it running now because BitTornado's UPnP feature didn't work unless I had UPnP enabled in my router. I had to set it to Internet Gateway Device.

DextrousJ
2005-06-13, 03:58 PM
DO i have to have UPnP???? can I get GREEN on Azureus without enabling UPnP???

uhclem- yes I did do that but nothing was different when I booted Azureus back up.....

Ted
2005-06-13, 04:25 PM
@<hidden> Uhclem - Below is the image to which I refered. Notice Microsoft's description on UPnP - "Description: Allows your computer to discover and control Universal Plug and Play devices." That's why I was thinking you may have been incorrect about not needing the services to be running. You disproved that, and I'm inclined to believe that once more Microsoft doesn't know very much about computers and how they actually work :p. BTW, MS wasn't my original source of info. That source, as is MS, is not very reliable, in my eyes now.
http://support.dlink.com/faq/faq_images/upnp/upnp.gif

@<hidden> DextrousJ - Yes, your router has to have UPnP. It appears that you do not have UPnP capability. Carefully check ALL of the settings pages and options/buttons to see if they moved the UPnP to somewhere else. If you don't find it, then maybe a different firmware version will give to the capability. I just noticed the image in the link I posted refers to a different model than yours, but the search results DO include yours. I would get in touch with D-Link and ask them if your model has the capability. If not, can you get it? Have the firmware version ready, because they'll most likely ask you. If you have to email, make sure to include the model and firmware version.

Maybe uhclem will know more, but that's all the help I can be until you have the UPnP capability.

DextrousJ
2005-06-13, 06:00 PM
OK..... I went into my router's options and opened up ports 6881-6999, which I didnt do before (I only did it in Windows Firewall). After I did that, and I am sure that all those things you all had told me to do helped too, I booted up Azureus and every-now-and-then I get a GREEN light :D !!!!!..... THANKS GUYS!!!! But when I do the "NAT/Firewall Test" in Azureus it still says "NAT Error". :rolleyes:

I just had one more question before we leave this thread. What is the average download speed that you guys get when downloading Torrents? Mine is about 30kb/s. Is that ok???

Ted
2005-06-13, 06:12 PM
The whole point of using UPnP was to not have to forward ports, but if you got it working, then good :). There's not really much of a difference in security, from what I can tell so far.

I'm not sure about Aureus' error.

As for the download speed - it depends on a few factors - how many people are you downloading from, what their speed is, when the full moon is, etc. My point is, don't worry about the speed. You'll see fast speed and slow speed. I sometimes get over 3000kb/sec and other times as little as <1kb/sec. (on the same torrent). The only thing to check is that you are not limiting your speed by a setting in Azureus. Give yourself max download and about 75% upload (no more, or you'll never be able to surf).

uhclem
2005-06-13, 07:31 PM
I'm glad you got it working. Remember that with Azureus you only need to open one port, not the whole 6881-6999 range. Your Azureus is probably using 6881 so that's the only one you need open.

Why Azureus would fail the NAT check but still give you green lights is a mystery to me. Then again, many things are ;)

DextrousJ
2005-06-13, 07:36 PM
Ya... well all that UPnP stuff was getting too confusing. But I greatly appreciate your help. If you get any more info about UPnP I would love to hear about it.

3000kb/s :eek: .... thats alot. The most I have gotten was about 85kb/s. I just dont want any firwalls or anything to get in the way of getting the full potential out of my downloading speed. That's why I am making it such a big deal...lol

Well, I guess thats it for this thread. Again, (and I know ive said this 100 times) I thank both of you guys for posting here and helping me out. I will use what I have learned here to help others along the way and I will keep learning more and staying active in sharing and trading with BitTorrent...... :wave:

Ted
2005-06-13, 08:17 PM
Ya... well all that UPnP stuff was getting too confusing. But I greatly appreciate your help. If you get any more info about UPnP I would love to hear about it.
Actually, it's supposed to be easier. I think I may have confused it by trying to learn a little in your thread. Sorry for that. Well, anyway, glad you got it working and you're welcome for my part in helping you.

uhclem
2005-06-14, 06:44 PM
This thread may be more or less dead, but I wanted to add two things just in case some finds it while searching for UPnP info:

1. In order to use UPnP in BitTornado on WinXP you do need to enable the "SSDP Discovery Service". I can't remember if this is enabled by default. If BitTornada has successfully forwared a port via UPnP it will tell you this at the bottom of the "Advanced" window, where it will say something like "Listening on Port 6881, UPnP port forwarded"

2. I found the following post (http://www.neowin.net/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t326109.html) in a forum on routers and bittorrent. Granted it was posted by no one in particular, but it sums up what I've been trying to say on the subject:

Firstly Define UPnP.

UPnP - As the functionality provided by a router - will be red
UPnP - As part of the operating system will be blue.

Hope that is easy enough to understand.

I will start with the UPnP that is part of your Operating System. You do not need it
I have disabled both the UPnP and SSDP services with no adverse affects. It may be used by some printers, and I have yet to come across one that fails if this service is disabled. Mainly because they can be configured, and should be, to work without it.
I was planing to give you the command to disable it, but its not even on my computer any more. I completely removed it. So you will need to go to services.msc and stop and disable both UPnP and SSDP
And I still have webcam/voice MSN

UPnP on your router is another matter. Its a great tool, and a great risk. If you trust your network, know what you are doing, then by all means, leave it on. I leave it on for MSN, Azureus and a couple of other programs. Simplifies matters greatly. If you do not trust your network, or the users in it, to not downloaded viruses etc, then disable it. Give yourself a static IP, and forward the normal ports to your computer. Install a personall firewall, and let it run as its defaults. That way, anything that you forward to your computer from your router - always on - will get blocked by the personal firewall, unless you have MSN, or Azeureus etc running.

To sum it up UPnP on your OS - Off
UPnP on your router - ON - Only if you trust your network and the users within it.

Ted
2005-06-14, 08:27 PM
Hehe, Neowin - I made buttons for an older version of their forum :p

Interesting article. I read some more from that link and I'm wondering even more now about the security. I'm still puzzled by MS's "description" of UPnP in that image I posted, but then I have to remember to consider the source...

Thanks for the info, BTW. You gave me lots to think about ;)