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View Full Version : VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]


AAR.oner
2010-02-21, 12:22 PM
NOTE [Feb 23]: i have copied a few of the following posts from a discussion in the VH Largo video torrent thread (http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=79548) to this thread, it belongs here in Technobabble more than it does there...hopefully this will be an educational discussion re: the transferring of analogue sources to digital that people can learn from




i'm not a Van Halen fan, so i've seen neither of the "versions" being discussed...but as someone who trained & works in video production & editing, i'd like to point out a few FACTS that don't require comparing the two...hopefully we can clear some things up for those who are reading this thread & confused


1. the difference between "casual fan" and "serious fan" matters little when it comes to the subject of quality...nor does the number of shows you've uploaded have any effect on whether or not you know what yer doin when it comes to video production

the difference between "amateur transferer/authorer" & "professional video post-production" however matters a lot...as does the equipment involved


2. "picture quality" is largely subjective, especially when it comes to bootlegs/VHS transfers...its even more subjective when those discussing it are amateurs...sure there are quality issues that are obvious to just about anyone -- drop outs, audio sync, rolling, ghosting, etc...

but things such as color balance, which seems to be a main point for sabkisscrue on this, are not so easily judged...for a VHS transfer like this [where we can't change what occurred in-cam or in the transfers-up-to-this-point], we're left with color balancing in post which is dependent on a number of factors including:
--a professional-grade & accurately calibrated monitor
--close examination of source material using waveform/vectorscope/histogram, and comparing that to TV-standard color bars
--the *knowledge* to know what yer looking at above, and how to adjust RGB/chroma/phase/etc accordingly

no offense to you sabkisscrue, but there are very few people out there who haven't been trained in video post-production that really know what they're doing when it comes to video post- work...just because one has the programs and ability to "tweak", and thinks "that looks better now" -- it doesnt necessarily mean its truly better...its just like the audio "re-masterers" out there who have Adobe Audition and can tweak an EQ, doesn't mean that they know what they're doing and have created a better mix & true upgrade


3. every single TV in every single one of our homes is different -- color [RGB], contrast, brightness, etc...so just because Version A looks better than Version B on your TV doesn't mean it actually is...again, viewing on a professional broadcast monitor is the only way to truly compare





sabkisscrue...
i'm not tryin to put you down, but let's face it -- yer using a consumer-grade camera & consumer-grade standalone DVD recorder to transfer a transfer of a transfer...not exactly verifiable credentials here ;) not to say your "version" couldn't look better than say a VHS(3) transfer using professional gear, raw source quality does make a big difference...but it does point out a level of knowledge/experience that is incongruent with the way you've presented yerself here

don't be afraid to admit you are an amateur...don't be afraid to admit that there are people out there [and even here at TTD & in this thread] who know far more about this process than you, you might learn some things even...i've been in this field for a good while and still learn new things all the time [any true professional knows they've always got something else to learn, this field is ever changing]...and remember that your opinion re: quality is exactly that -- your opinion...no more no less





everyone else...
moral of the story -- when it comes to amateur transfers/authors, the word "upgrade" doesn't mean much...sabkisscrue believes this is the best version circulating, some of the others here say the BTB version is better...i personally recommend trading for [or d/ling :rolleyes:] both versions and see which you prefer

post your opinion here or another board if it makes ya feel better, but remember its just that, yer opinion...and that these are only recordings of concerts -- not the cure for cancer...in the grand scheme of life, bootlegs don't really matter for shit!

sabkisscrue
2010-02-21, 09:42 PM
Since you obviously have not used or don't know how to use the search function on this site
Since I dont know how to use the search function, apparently. What comes up that "boxedart" has transferred/authored?


Furthermore, you're doing nothing more than a crap standalone transfer

Really? What do you know about the JVC DRM-100?

and the fact you don't understand that...pretty much sums it all up.

Oh, I understand that you think its "crap" but you didnt say why its crap. You just its a "crap standalone recorder".

someone's professional life is relevant

It would only be relevant if that person deals with low gen and multi-generated vhs all the time and has transferred several upgrades.

sabkisscrue believes this is the best version circulating, some of the others here say the BTB version is better

Out of the 500+ who have downloaded over multiple sites, about a handful are saying they prefer the BTB. Which is not a surprise because nobody else was looking for an upgrade to that version, it was in my own disappointment with that version that I wanted better.

don't over-inflate yer ego

That is your opinion but its simply not true that I have an overinflated ego or any kind of ego for that matter. Btw, if I were to disagree with you about something, id say that I disagreed rather than accuse you of having an overinflated ego.

schmoe75
2010-02-21, 10:46 PM
Excluding the VH show, all of which were authored by 'boxedart'.
Arvil was captured & authored by 'boxedart'
Really? What do you know about the JVC DRM-100?
Oh, I understand that you think its "crap" but you didnt say why its crap. You just said its a "crap standalone recorder".
Anyone with a clue knows capturing via standalone is the worst way to capture video...it's about the equivalent as using a cell phone or digital camera to video tape a show.

It would only be relevant if that person deals with low gen and multi-generated vhs all the time and has transferred several upgrades.
Out of the 500+ who have downloaded over multiple sites, about a handful are saying they prefer the BTB.
Check back when you understand posts 62 & 63

That is your opinion but its simply not true that I have an overinflated ego or any kind of ego for that matter. Btw, if I were to disagree with you about something, id say that I disagreed rather than accuse you of having an overinflated ego.
Interesting...you took that comment as directed at you solely.

sabkisscrue
2010-02-21, 11:11 PM
Arvil was captured & authored by 'boxedart'


What has he "captured" from vhs and other older formats?


Anyone with a clue knows capturing via standalone is the worst way to capture video...

So, you believe all standalone units are "crap". Is that correct?
Its safe to say going by that, the answer to my question is no, that you dont know about the JVC DRM-100.

AAR.oner
2010-02-22, 10:41 AM
Deuce being a glorified dub jockey on some overpriced pro-sumer processing amplifiers doesn't make you an expert on anything.

i wouldn't exactly call a digi8 camcorder & standalone DVD recorder "pro-sumer" gear ;) :lol:



Really? What do you know about the JVC DRM-100?


Oh, I understand that you think its "crap" but you didnt say why its crap. You just its a "crap standalone recorder".



So, you believe all standalone units are "crap". Is that correct?
Its safe to say going by that, the answer to my question is no, that you dont know about the JVC DRM-100.

since you don't seem to wanna accept the quick n easy answer from schmoe, i'll give you the longer, more technically-flavored response :rolleyes:

as the JVC website clearly states -- its a consumer product designed for home entertainment systems ...released maybe 5-6 years ago, originally cost around $300, you can now find em on ebay for $50

as a consumer grade product, you can count on a few things...for one, the A>D conversion will be mediocre at best [more than likely it'd be bottom-of-the-barrel]...but most importantly the compression engines that standalone DVD recorders use are completely inferior quality-wise to a program based encoder

yes there are a handful of decent SAs that don't suffer from the above, however they sold for thousands of dollars, not a coupla hundred...people in the film/video business don't use standalone DVD recorders, and there's plenty of reasons why




It would only be relevant if that person deals with low gen and multi-generated vhs all the time and has transferred several upgrades.

that is seriously one of the daftest responses that you coulda given...hopefully yer just a kid, cuz otherwise they might be right re: the whole ego issue thing...either way, its relevant -- cuz yes, i'm that person who deals with all kinds of formats including VHS for the purposes of transferring and digitizing...& the fact that you'd like to believe doing a handful of VHS transfers makes you more of an expert than myself and others here who trained & work in the field [I]doing this for a living is beyond comprehension to me

i go down on my woman regularly, that doesn't make me an OB/GYN ;)






again -- don't be afraid to admit yer a major fan of VH, and as a hobby yer an amateur video enthusiast that does some transfers...there's nothing wrong with that!

but might i make a few suggestions, if ya want to learn more about A>D transferring and improve the overall quality of yer transfers:

1. videohelp.com is not a resource used by video professionals, its amateurs pretending like they know shit...there is more inaccurate information on that site than Fox News, so grain of salt with anything thats posted there...i would find one of the more reputable forums for reading/learning...2pop, creativecow, dvinfo.net, cinematography.com forums -- all are much better resources...also Ken Stone's site (http://www.kenstone.net/) has a lot of great info for the novice & pro alike

2. ditch the Digi8 camcorder for anything other than transferring Digi8 tapes...its a consumer camcorder released almost a decade, with low-end A>D conversion...and although i believe you when you say it has TBC/DNR, i find it interesting that nowhere on Sony's site/spec pages does it mention this camera having either of those...actually when googling that camera's make/model along with TBC and DNR, the only sites that pop up are posts you've made and a few from videohelp [refer to previous point]...but even if it does, it yer much better off using a dedicated A>D converter & TBC -- quality will be far superior...

from my experience, the best-for-cheap would be a Grass Valley ADVC300 [which i use a lot for VHS transfers]...but if you want the best possible quality--companies like For-A, Blackmagic, AJA, and now even Motu

3. ditch the standalone and use a decent encoder...i generally use Episode Pro, Sorensen Squeeze Pro, or Compressor [depending on what i'm encoding to]...but any professional or even prosumer software encoder will be better than the SA's compression

AAR.oner
2010-02-23, 10:12 AM
from a PM sent by sabkisscrue:


Hey,
I wanted to reply to you here because I think this is more of a private discussion.

as the JVC website clearly states -- its a consumer product designed for home entertainment systems [i.e recoring tv shows or transferring those home VHS tapes of Bobby's 3rd birthday party -- not professional grade transfers for archival purposes]...released maybe 5-6 years ago, originally cost around $300, you can now find em on ebay for $50

If you can find one of those units in like new condition it would go for much more than $50,
a non-working unit may go for $50 though.
I am disappointed though, that the only research you done on the unit itself was on JVC's web site. The fact is the "encoder" in this unit is one of the best encoders they ever put into a standalone recorder. You would have found that out if you did further research.
You would have also found out, that it happens to have the best noise reduction filters
ever put into a standalone unit, that comes in handy when transferring vhs. I believe you as a "professional" would be very happy this unit and with the results of its "encoding" quality.


but most importantly the compression engines that standalone DVD recorders use are completely inferior quality-wise to a program based encoder


With all due respect, you are not telling me what I dont know. The reason I even have that jvc is because im incredibly disappointed with the look of standalone recorded dvds.
I wanted better and the JVC produces better dvds and gives me the result im looking for.
As a matter of fact JVC put the "encoder" that is in the DRM100 that I use in some recent professional decks. So, its safe to say what I use is of "professional" quality. If you want, I can point out to you where to find those pro standalone decks, if you dont believe me.


yes there are a handful of decent SAs that don't suffer from the above, however they sold for thousands of dollars, not a coupla hundred

Read above.


i'm that person who deals with all kinds of formats including VHS for the purposes of transferring and digitizing...

What have you done from vhs tapes? Now im curious.
Id like to see your results.

the fact that you'd like to believe doing a handful of VHS transfers makes you more of an expert than myself and others here who trained & work in the field doing this for a living is beyond comprehension to me

I dont know where you got that impression. The fact is, I respect "professionals" opinions more than I do anyone else.

1. videohelp.com is not a resource used by video professionals

This is incorrect. As a matter of fact,
there is a couple of "professionals" on that site whos opinion I respect the most, out of anyone.

2. ditch the Digi8 camcorder for anything other than transferring Digi8 tapes

Have you ever used one of these to transfer 8mm/hi8 tapes? Its the way to go. Im telling you.
These also are great cameras.
This camera also functions as an excellent pass through filter to clean up vhs noise.


3. ditch the standalone and use a decent encoder...

When it comes to cleaning up the noise on vhs and camera sources. I opt for the JVC.

AAR.oner
2010-02-23, 10:36 AM
my response via PM:



If you can find one of those units in like new condition it would go for much more than $50,
a non-working unit may go for $50 though.

http://cgi.ebay.com/JVC-DRM100-DVD-Recorder-w-Remote-NICE_W0QQitemZ110496747746QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDVD_Players_Recorders?hash=item19ba1e90e2


I am disappointed though, that the only research you done on the unit itself was on JVC's web site. The fact is the "encoder" in this unit is one of the best encoders they ever put into a standalone recorder. You would have found that out if you did further research.
You would have also found out, that it happens to have the best noise reduction filters
ever put into a standalone unit, that comes in handy when transferring vhs. I believe you as a "professional" would be very happy this unit and with the results of its "encoding" quality.
links?

As a matter of fact JVC put the "encoder" that is in the DRM100 that I use in some recent professional decks. So, its safe to say what I use is of "professional" quality. If you want, I can point out to you where to find those pro standalone decks, if you dont believe me.
again, links?



What have you done from vhs tapes? Now im curious.
Id like to see your results.
safety & training videos, archival interview footage, etc etc...and sorry, but i don't think our clients would be too happy me u/ling torrents of their copyrighted material

i've got stacks of uncirculated live shows tho that i've been wanting to transfer, when i do yer more than welcome to d/l and see...but VHS is VHS, and gens/wear are a major factor...i simply have been telling you to ditch the pass-through & SA and opt for a quality SVHS deck & a decent A/D stage and you'll get better results...if you don't wanna believe that, hell fine by me



2. ditch the Digi8 camcorder for anything other than transferring Digi8 tapes

Have you ever used one of these to transfer 8mm/hi8 tapes? Its the way to go. Im telling you.
These also are great cameras.
This camera also functions as an excellent pass through filter to clean up vhs noise.
yes, i've used them to transfer 8mm format tapes...but as far as using it as a "pass through" [more accurately an A/D conversion stage], no they are not an "excellent filter to clean up vhs noise"

do they have filters, maybe...would most people call them "excellent", no...but again, if you wanna believe they are then by all means...


When it comes to cleaning up the noise on vhs and camera sources. I opt for the JVC.
so when it comes to noise reduction and other parameters, what controls do the JVC standalone offer? RGB, chroma & luminance, gain, etc?






oh and just a fwiw, but i tried googling that JVC DRM100 a little further, still can't find any info from any respected sites...but i did find this on videohelp.com that you might find interesting...i'm guessing lordsmurf would be one of those "professionals at the site you respect", i know he's been there for years...anyhow thought you might find it interesting:
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/229061-JVC-DR-M10-VS-DR-M100-Maybe-not-exactly-the-same!

AAR.oner
2010-02-23, 10:37 AM
a follow up PM i sent to sabkisscrue:

again, i'm not saying yer transfers are complete shit or unwatchable or anything personal -- i'm just saying that if yer doing VHS transfers of rare older footage and want the best quality transfer possible [within reason of course], using a digi8 as your A/D converter > SA DVD recorder is not gonna give you the best possible results -- especially when dealing with a non-perfect or high gen source

is that JVC model better than a lot of the other SA models that were on the market at that time? i don't know, but lets say yeah it was one of the best SAs...but is it as good as doing a direct capture from deck > dedicated A/D converter [such as the ADVC300] > Final Cut...sorry, but the answers no


there's numerous issues with SA recorders in general, and the JVC model yer referring to as well, when compared to a direct capture...i'd be more than happy list them if yer interested, but i'm thinkin this is all falling on deaf ears anyway

uninvited94
2010-02-23, 11:16 AM
http://www.targa.de/media/cache/2849.jpg

Not that it really matters, but after several months and tries with VHS>PC-stuff and not that happy with the results, I bought that little boy back in late 2007. Being the supermarket-engine that it is, it offers 1:1-transfers from VHS to DVD-R w/o any filters and stuff, but the transfers look and sound great, and most people that grabbed a transfer of mine think the same. No use to change equipment for the moment.

Following a screen from a Soundgarden-DVD coming from my master-VHS and transferred with my best-buy standalone that seemed to be good enough to be requested from a certain Matt Cameron via a Seattle-based trader.

http://zombpic.the-zomb.com/gallery2.php?entry=images2/1216955232.jpghttp://zombpic.the-zomb.com/gallery2.php?entry=images2/1216955232.jpghttp://f.imagehost.org/0303/1216955232.jpg

http://zombpic.the-zomb.com/gallery2.php?entry=images2/1216955232.jpg

AAR.oner
2010-02-23, 11:26 AM
werd, thanks for joining in un :wave:

but for matters of reference & comparison, what exactly was involved in the "VHS>PC-stuff" that delivered inferior quality?

make/model VCR?
A/D converter, video capture card, ???
TBC, Proc Amp, ???

shopkin
2010-02-23, 11:56 AM
BWBWWBWBHAHAHAHAHAHAAH
just make sure you put it on a 9.............:rolleyes:

uninvited94
2010-02-23, 12:56 PM
werd, thanks for joining in un :wave:

but for matters of reference & comparison, what exactly was involved in the "VHS>PC-stuff" that delivered inferior quality?

make/model VCR?
A/D converter, video capture card, ???
TBC, Proc Amp, ???

The issues I had were most about working on a PC that was a bit too weak for this kind of stuff...I donīt know if you know what I mean, but there were glitches and a static screen here and there. The VCR itself was good enough (and is still used for that matter) to make crystal clear Audio-transfers from VHS, but after I had the standalone and was happy with what I got, I just stopped transferring DVDs with that one. Got a new PC after that as well, and not having been the quite experienced and technically interested person I soon was to become via TTD and others, I have no clue anymore what capture cards and stuff I used. If it helps, hereīs a lineage from one of the few good captures I made:

Lineage: unknown tripod-cam (on soundboard) > Master > VHS (one audio-channel only) > VCR (JVC HR-J593) > transfer to HDD (via Ulead VideoStudio Movie Wizard) > MPEG > encoding and editing (via Ulead VideoStudio Movie Wizard) > DVD (2006-09-26)

awolfoutwest
2010-02-23, 03:17 PM
Amateur video transfer hobbyist here, specializing in Grateful Dead and related source material. I have been transferring since 2004, and released numerous transfers to the community.

My approach is simple, and my budget is limited. Here is my current capture/ encode chain:

JVC SRV10U S-VHS w/ Time Base Corrector & Digital NR engaged > s-video > ATI TV Wonder 650 > VirtualDub 1.9.8 w/ HuffYUV > AVIsynth 2.5.8 > CinemaCraft Encoder 2.70

or

Panasonic PV-9450 VHS VCR > composite > ATI TV Wonder 650 >
VirtualDub 1.9.8 w/ HuffYUV > AVIsynth 2.5.8 > CinemaCraft Encoder 2.70

Funny thing, the "nothing special" Panasonic often gives a cleaner playback than the JVC deck, composite cable and all. I also have an i.den IVT-7 TBC and a AVT8710 TBC that I can insert into the chain if needed. I do my viewing on an old Commodore 1702 monitor, which is a nice NTSC CRT with chroma and luma inputs. I have done color calibration on the monitor, on the video card that feeds the monitor (ATI radeon x1950pro), on the capture card, and on the TBC where applicable, all done using the test patterns and filters in the AVIA guide to Home Theater.

I capture to my hard drive using the lossless HuffYUV codec - 1 hour of video is about 50GB with an average of 3.5:1 compression. VirtualDub is a great freeware program that fits my capture needs. All of my processing is done via scripting with the AVIsynth freeware frameserver software - very powerful and allows total control of virtually all aspects of the video stream.

I can sense you video professionals cringing :D I cannot afford pro-grade equipment, and have concentrated on doing the best I can with the gear I have. I have done my share of botching the video stream, and have hopefully learned enough to avoid future mishaps. I am always trying to improve my capture process, and usually include a split-screen clip showing raw capture vs processed video. I take the "Occam's Razor" approach to video processing - the simplest strategy is the best. Capture, process once, encode once, author, release...

boxedart
2010-02-23, 04:00 PM
PART 1 - The history of the world. (With applogies to Mel Brooks)

I will take this a step further - as I said over in that VH thread most people that are involved in restoration of visuals and audio do a lot more than simply do a transfer from "master" source to new "master" source. It is easy for me because I sarted off on film - working with film. Yes film is still film and video is video however in both cases there are dedicated indivuals who do nothing more than sit and, frame by frame, do restorations using whatever technology is available to them to do so. Certianly the technology that was available 30 years ago is not the same that is available now...meaning that an old u-matic, quad, or 1 inch duplication master may not be the best version that could exist - but it may be the only "useable" version for the massses that does exist. This is where restoration comes into play.

It is hard to talk shop without loosing some people but here is the basic scenario - and will use film but if you follow you will better understand the concept for video. So call this first part a very brief "history" lesson of sorts. In film something is shot on film - for those old "music videos" it was mostly 16mm. Keeping in mind MTV was not around and even when it first came into being it was not like it is now, and really "music video" was not a term used. It was more "promotional films" or the like. But the actual format is not my main point - it is that you would take an unexposed roll of film, load it into your camera and shoot. That film was processed at a lab and if it was negative a one light work print was made and sent to an editor. If it was postive the editor held thier breath and hoped they didn't fuck up. When the editing was done, in the case of negative, a negative cut was done and a screening print made. From that the color timing would come into play and than, from the same negative, a release print would be made. Now here come the variables - for something that was mass produced an interneg would be made to save the orginal neg. As video playback became more common the release print would be telecined video and a dupe would be made from that to be used as a duplication master. As technology grew the line between film and video became more blured. Matter of fact a film that I supervised post on was one of the frst to use, at the time, "new" process to allow an editor to cut using an offline system and than dump out and EDL and bring a VHS dump, along with the EDL, to the Neg cutter and they would conform the negative. I was very sceptical at first because film edge number and SMPTE time code are not that same, nor is 24 fps of film vs the inherent telcine addition of frames to conform to NTSC - but I sat down on a D/Vision system and, after ingesting all the telecined dailies that were on u-matic, I edited and dumped out the EDL and brought a VHS dump over to them. That process, known as match back or frame matching, became very commonplace and now, taking this all a step further, the need for EDL's or the use of "offline" are things most newbies don't bother with due to the current world of digital.

So what does any of this have to with " VHS Transfers & Quality"? A lot - because for video the process starts off mostly the same. Something is shot but instead of going to film it was laid down on video tape of some sort. Keeping in mind that back in the "old days" what was done inside of a TV studio was video, whats done on location was mostly film, shot on 16mm and the process used was the same as I described - except the turn around time was insane. In the old-er days of live TV, in some cases, there was not video tape so a simple process wa sused - point a film camera at a studio montor and film it. Its why some of those old "classic" shows and performances are only out there on a kinescope recording. In the whole process there may be more than a few "masters" - a studio "master", a duplication "master", a viewing "master" and a "sub-master". When you go out and buy a DVD it is not made form *the* master - yes it is a made from an "master", one that was assembled from various soruces - the main feature, the menus, the trailers and even those "extras". But along that path from studio to your hands there are a lot of steps, including the encoding of all material and dumping the final authored DVD to a DLT, transfer to a glass master and lots of quality control going on along the way. It is not simply a dub from some videotape to a stand alone DVD recorder.

This somewhat brings us up to now.

PART 2 - Quality, oh Quality how i knew thee.

First of all when talking about VHS one has to remember it was a more modern consumer format - and of less quality than another consumer format - beta. Studios used Quad tape (2 inch) or 1 inch to record to. Consumers didn't have those maching in their homes - the concept of a home VTR was not part of the equation. U-matic came about later and became a more portable format in the world to television. If you were in the industry or a geek and, had the money, it would not be unusual to have a u-matic deck in your home - with a tuner built in to record over the air broadcasts. When MTV first went on the air they accepted 1 inch and u-matic, betacam was still a new format. Those early MTV videos were being played back and sent out on what we think of now as obsolete gear.

For those still with me the question here is about VHS quality and the current state of things. The issue of quality can be a subjective one and at times it has to be weighed against things like "historical" value. In recent times two events come to my mind - before 2001 most of the industry never would have felt consumer camcorder, cell phones or webcams would be used for mainstream news and most of the "casual viewers" would have been banging their TV sets and calling their local stations to complain about the images in their sets. But September 11, 2001 changed that perception. And again, when the coalition forces were crossing into Baghdad, almost every major worldwide network had someone embedded and broadcast live via a most unlikey source: a cell/sat phone linked to a webcam. Viewes around the glob watched choppy web cam video being streamed live. If a full show of one of the Oakland '81 gigs turned up as shakey handheld super 8 film transfer I think most, but not all, true CVH diehards would be fine with that "quality" due to it's "historical" value.

The term "camera original" or "camera master" used to imply it was the best source and quality - now it could mean it is from a cell phone in dark club. This is what, as someone who does film and video for a living, has to deal with on a daily basis. "Why should we hire a pro when we my brother in laws 7 year son could do that?" With that kind of feeling anymore how can somebody be expected to fully grasp the difference between a basic dub and restortion, or even authoring for a DVD? If they grew up (or are gowing up) in the digital age I don't think they fully can. Hey, for under 100 bucks you can buy an HD camera and with less than one hundred more buy software that will allow you to edit and turn out a DVD. In those terms, yes, "quality" is very much subjective.

So, as AAR.oner pointed out, as as I too had pointed out, the quality of what sabkisscrue/deuce8pro/Matt has done in regaurds to the Van Halen show is fine for what it is. However the arguments made here, and on other forums, by sabkisscrue/deuce8pro/Matt is not that it is that it is not good for what it is - but that it *is* the best. Why? One reason given is the use of a "1 Gen" source from a "master" and second is that thier equpiment does more than creates another dub. From the start, and I still maintain this, that this was not made from the venues "master" as is implied in the sources - it was clearly, at the least, made from a dub of a dub. In the world I live in one does not call a VHS dub a "master" nor does one call a dub to another format from a VHS dub a "1st Gen" dub, no matter what kind of gear you use. So the first step to "quality" is to use correct terms. The "quality" is based on the source - no matter what format it is in. Hw the image go onto that source would be a true "master". In the case of raw footage that would be the original negative/camera master and the final product would be the "edited master" and after that would come a "duplication master" and even a "broadcast master." But, in the professiaonl world, even a dub from a broadcast master would be better than a consumer dub made from a consumer dub of another dub.

Next I would say to be realistic in expectations. In other words back in the day when I was doing tape trading we all basiclly were making dubs. The difference is someone working at Warner Brothers who made a dub was not nessecarly using the same gear the fan who tapped a show in Buffalo would be. Likewise the in house video feed was not using the same gear as the fan who shot the show from the handicapped section with his VHS-C cam corder. These figure into "quality" as well. So, for example, if what you are presenting is a show sourced from a 30 year old hand held VHS camera do not pretend it was shot by professionals, fed through some Quantel sytem and mastered at IVC. It is what it is - don't try to sell anyone on the idea that it is more that what it is.

PART 3 - Oh gear, I dropped a frame

This is where you go "But what about gear?" and I say "I already explained that". Which I did - sort of. Most of the traders are not pro - in other words they are doing this as a hobby, not for money. If you are making money from this you are a bootlegger and we don't take too kindly to your type in these here parts. :) But seriously - ask yourself very simple qestions - "What do I want out of this? Why am I doing it?" The answer should help to guide you to the best gear for what you want to do. And this is where my little "history lesson" should come into play - 30 years ago the abilty to do what most everyone can do now at home was non-existant. There were no 25 dollar DVD players, 40 dollar ebay DVD recorders, 99 dollar HD cameras and such. Back in the day somebody said they wanted a copy of something and they hit play on one machine and record on another. Those with more money had better gear and other tech heads had TBC's running. And that worked - and frankly that still works for many. The gear may be more advanced but at it's core, and another part of why this thread was created, somebody hits play on one machine and hits record on the other. At anyone can do that...and with most of the gear available today you can do a decent job of it - so if that is all you want to do than that is all you need. Something to playback and something to record on. It is not brain surgery. Although some may still might need to get someone to get that clock to stop flashing at you.

Now if it is resotration you want to do than things become more complicated. Because this is a hobby you need to figure out how much time and effort you want to put into this and than it becomes ingesting into your computer in the best possible method. In the case of old video pulling it is a 4k won't matte rmuch but if it was some old film footage and yo uhad a box with processing power to do it - get it scanned frame by frame at 4k. I have to say I don't know of many, actually none, hobbiests who would lay out that kind of cash to do that or have that kind of high end system at home. In other words there is a relaity check that needs to come into play. Most would pop whatever source tape they have into whatever playback unit they have and capture it to whatever codec is common to their system. These days it is a DV codec and it gets the job done. It it the best for what *you* want to do? I can't tell you that - but I can say that for best result if you are planning on doing a lot of color correction and clean up working at the best resolution works best - meaning uncompresed.

There you have it - that says a lot but probably does not answer any specific questions. And it is for a reason. Some people swear by Kodak film stock, some by Fuji, some AGFA. Some peole swear by JVC gear, some by Sony. Some people swear by Macs, some by Linx, some by Windows. And it goes on and on. I always tell people to look at it and try it and if it looks good to them than it is good for them. here at TDD there are things that are accepted and things that are not - mostly it has to do with quality issues, such as not allowing MP3's or DIVX. As I said - does the gear do what *you* want it to do? If it does cool beans. As awolfoutwest said: "I can sense you video professionals cringing. I cannot afford pro-grade equipment, and have concentrated on doing the best I can with the gear I have." And overall - as oryo pointed out at VHT - "IT'S JUST A HOBBY!" and as AAR.oner said here - "...these are only recordings of concerts -- not the cure for cancer."

AAR.oner
2010-02-23, 04:41 PM
have to read more carefully later, but cheers for the contributions ya'll...open discussion about techniques & gear is necessary in this constantly changing field

also glad you pointed out some of the inconsistencies in wording -- "master" doesn't mean the same thing in trading circles as it would in the film/video business...too many words being used inaccurately these days imo


btw boxedart -- got some Super16 B&W Reversal stock in the freezer, leftovers from a shoot...some of my favorite stock of all time...always wanted to film part a live show with it...maybe if i hit the lottery, and it'd have to be a black metal show :lol:

boxedart
2010-02-23, 04:53 PM
btw boxedart -- got some Super16 B&W Reversal stock in the freezer, leftovers from a shoot...some of my favorite stock of all time...always wanted to film part a live show with it...maybe if i hit the lottery, and it'd have to be a black metal show :lol:

Nice! I had a DP give me some old stock, wasn't neg or Super 16 though, he had in his freezer at one time. He loaned me his old bolex and we went and did a cheesy horror short. I say all the time - I miss film. But I have adapted to video.

AAR.oner
2010-02-23, 05:07 PM
I can sense you video professionals cringing :D I cannot afford pro-grade equipment, and have concentrated on doing the best I can with the gear I have. I have done my share of botching the video stream, and have hopefully learned enough to avoid future mishaps. I am always trying to improve my capture process, and usually include a split-screen clip showing raw capture vs processed video. I take the "Occam's Razor" approach to video processing - the simplest strategy is the best. Capture, process once, encode once, author, release...

:lol4: i hope i didn't come off as saying, "either buy the best gear available or don't transfer it at all", cuz thats not what i'm saying...my set up is by no means top-of-the-line, but delivers the best quality results while in our budget...if an analgue recording needs something more in order to get the best outta it, i'll shop it out to a large production house that has the high end gear


in my opinion, the important thing is that you a) don't pretend to know it all, b) are "always trying to improve yer capturing process", and c) are always willing to learn...no bullshit, no holier-than-thou attitude

attributes i find in most of the film/video professionals i've met in taping/trading circles, but rarely in yer amateur "basement authorers"...they're way is the best, stamp my name all over it, artwork please can i get a seeder???? :lol4:

AAR.oner
2010-02-23, 05:14 PM
Nice! I had a DP give me some old stock, wasn't neg or Super 16 though, he had in his freezer at one time. He loaned me his old bolex and we went and did a cheesy horror short. I say all the time - I miss film. But I have adapted to video.

werd, but it is a whole lot easier and cost effective now...like location sound, carrying a small HDD-based recorder and boom is a LOT easier than it used to be, but damn if 2" reel doesn't sound better, even on dialogue!

awolfoutwest
2010-02-23, 06:04 PM
:lol4: i hope i didn't come off as saying, "either buy the best gear available or don't transfer it at all", cuz thats not what i'm saying...
Nah, I never got that from your comments. However, I do feel a certain responsibility to transfer as best I can, hopefully improving the material from the source when possible. While it is not curing cancer, some of these transfers are archival until a better version comes along. If no better version surfaces, then what I put out had better be as good as I can get it.

As far as quality goes, I like to take my processed video and subtract it from the original video. Doing this shows flat grey when the video is unaltered, and shows clearly where noise has been reduced, edges sharpened, etc. For a while I was using a technique that required 3 captures of the source, then the AVIsynth script would take the 2 closest pixels of the 3 captures and pass on that information. It was an effective method of filtering out the noise generated in playback, but I have since found a more effective all-around filter for spatio-temporal noise reduction.

My cause celebre has been cascading compression. I have tried to impress on those that will listen how essential it is to avoid re-encoding previously encoded video. I have used MPEG2 video to patch a dropout in something I am working on, but that is on the order of a couple of seconds of video. There are those who don't think twice about re-encoding an entire video to employ color correction, noise reduction or even editing. When I suggest that they find an analog source instead, or employ a GOP-level editor if all frames are not being altered, they maintain that they have "improved" the MPEG2 source and it "looks better". I remain "skeptimistic" :lol:

sabkisscrue
2010-02-23, 10:58 PM
Nah, I never got that from your comments. However, I do feel a certain responsibility to transfer as best I can, hopefully improving the material from the source when possible. While it is not curing cancer, some of these transfers are archival until a better version comes along. If no better version surfaces, then what I put out had better be as good as I can get it.

As far as quality goes, I like to take my processed video and subtract it from the original video. Doing this shows flat grey when the video is unaltered, and shows clearly where noise has been reduced, edges sharpened, etc. For a while I was using a technique that required 3 captures of the source, then the AVIsynth script would take the 2 closest pixels of the 3 captures and pass on that information. It was an effective method of filtering out the noise generated in playback, but I have since found a more effective all-around filter for spatio-temporal noise reduction.

My cause celebre has been cascading compression. I have tried to impress on those that will listen how essential it is to avoid re-encoding previously encoded video. I have used MPEG2 video to patch a dropout in something I am working on, but that is on the order of a couple of seconds of video. There are those who don't think twice about re-encoding an entire video to employ color correction, noise reduction or even editing. When I suggest that they find an analog source instead, or employ a GOP-level editor if all frames are not being altered, they maintain that they have "improved" the MPEG2 source and it "looks better". I remain "skeptimistic" :lol:

My kind of guy using words like "improve" and "filter".

This is my setup when it comes to transfering NTSC VHS:

JVC HRS-9800U S-VHS Deck > AR Pro II Series S-Video Cable > Panasonic ES-10 (Pass through tbc/frame synchronizer, Line in NR turned ON,
both in and output black levels set to darker) > AR Pro II Series S-Video Cable > Audio wires from vcr > Sony TR-740 Digital8 Camera (TBC/DNR Turned ON, used for temporal filtering) > firewire > JVC DRM-100 DVD Recorder

The JVC is one of the best consumer model vcrs ever produced.
Does an excellent job of playing back most tapes.
The AR Pro II series is a heavy duty cable that delivers a a very vivid looking picture, rich with colors and full of detail. The ES10 works with the JVC to help correct some of the jitter that JVC doesnt, it also corrects the black level. Theres also a Line IN NR that helps to further clean up the image. The Sony tr740, that AAR doesnt like, doesnt believe this has pass through filters but based on my experience, it does. As evident by the hundreds of transfers ive done and many of which were upgrades to circulated versions. I use a firewire from that camera into a JVC DRM100. Now I dont suggest the JVC DRM100 encodes EVERYTHING the best. Certainly to record a tv broadcast, I wouldnt use this. But as far as vhs is concerned, based on the experience I have and my eye, this is the way to go and you can quote me on that as a very important tool in encoding vhs. Why is that? Because one it has noise reduction filters that help to clean up the noise on vhs sources, especially multi gen tapes. The result is something that is often cleaner and better than the source.

I also use an Aiwa MX1 in transferring PAL tapes.

sabkisscrue
2010-02-23, 11:09 PM
JVC SRV10U S-VHS w/ Time Base Corrector & Digital NR engaged

Im sure youd agree with me as you been doing this since 2004, that not all tapes should have the tbc/dnr engaged. I use the 9800, and it works with some tapes and some it doesnt.


> s-video >

Which ones do you use? Id really suggest you try the very affordable Acoustic Research PRO II Series. Youd be very pleased.



I can sense you video professionals cringing :D I cannot afford pro-grade equipment

In my research, I dont believe pro equipment is the way to go, it was suggested pro svhs decks were the best, that turned out to be false. It should be about what works BEST, IMO.

dmb2much
2010-02-24, 01:47 AM
I've had great results with my JVC HR-DVS3U (http://support.jvc.com/consumer/product.jsp?archive=true&pathId=49&modelId=MODL026939). The stabilizer worked wonders on a VHS tape I had of DMB 1992-04-05 Afton, VA (http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63237)

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/2838/20100223234044.jpg

AAR.oner
2010-02-24, 11:36 AM
i'm going to respond to you here and not in PM sabkisscrue...

reason being -- this is a discussion that needs to occur publicly so that others can chime in, and most importantly, those doing transfers in the future will know the various methods, pros and cons of each, and make decisions based on THE BEST POSSIBLE OUTPUT QUALITY

i think we all agree that best quality is the goal




i've got stacks of uncirculated live shows tho that i've been wanting to transfer, when i do yer more than welcome to d/l and see...but VHS is VHS, and gens/wear are a major factor...i simply have been telling you to ditch the pass-through & SA and opt for a quality SVHS deck & a decent A/D stage and you'll get better results...if you don't wanna believe that, hell fine by me

"Uncirculated"? As in these were filmed and never was circulated by the filmer? Thats very interesting.
I do use a "quality SVHS". The JVC HR-S9800U is considered one of the best consumer decks ever made, because it has the TBC/DNR circuitry. Does a fantastic job of transferring those uncirculated live shows.

yes "uncirculated" meaning never been circulated...not any bands that yer probly interested in tho, so don't get too excited :lol:

and i've never said the 9800 wasn't a good SVHS deck...never used one personally, but from what i've heard from associates and reviews i've read, its a great deck for the money...so no arguments there




yes, i've used them to transfer 8mm format tapes...but as far as using it as a "pass through" [more accurately an A/D conversion stage], no they are not an "excellent filter to clean up vhs noise"

Now I know what A/D means.
I disagree based on the experience ive had and the results ive gotten. Incorporating it into my setup, I did get a cleaner looking picture from vhs tapes in pass through and playing back 8mm/hi8 tapes.
Ive transferred many 8mm/hi8 tapes for old school filmers, so if those guys are happy with the results I know what im doing is right.


1. no where on Sony's site does it say that this camera employs a TBC or any sort of DNR filters...not saying 100% it doesn't -- but don't you think they'd mention those features in the specs or overview re: its A>D pass through capabilities? its something every manufacturer clearly touts *if* a piece of gear utilizes such features:
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=11034705

also no mention of it on camcorderinfo.com -- by far one of the best online resources for in depth info and testing on cameras...they make no mention of these features either, something they wouldn't omit if it indeed had TBC or DNR:
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/sony_dcrtrv740_camcorder_review.htm


2. all that aside, lets just assume the camera does employ both TBC and DNR...

would using it as a pass through give you better results than not using any TBC/DNR in the chain? most of the time, sure

are there better resources out there [for not a lot of money] that'll give you far superior results than the cam? DEFINITELY [see next answer]




Also when it comes to noise reduction and other parameters, what controls do the JVC standalone offer? RGB, chroma & luminance, gain, etc?

Will get back to you on this.

whether the Digi8 cam or a standalone -- a filter such as DNR [digitial noise reduction] is a great asset and necessary for improving many/most VHS transfers...that we can agree on

but one that "is what it is" and applies the filters automatically is not nearly as desirable as one that allows you to control the various parameters individually, based on what that particular tape is needing

its like those audio "re-masterers" -- they get a copy of Audition or SoundForge, take an old cassette recording, see the "Noise Reduction" filter and think "that'll make it better"...to their untrained ear it *appears* to sound better cuz the hiss & noise floor have been lessened, however they've destroyed the frequency spectrum and overall sound...are there ways to apply "noise reduction" that doesn't destroy it all together? yes...does that occur with a one-stop-filter? NO! it takes multiple filters & countless hours by a trained engineer to do "nosie reduction" on an audio source

LESSON -- "automatic" is never as good as "manual"...and when dealing with multi-gen VHS sources, well worn tapes, etc -- manual control of each parameter is a NECESSITY for producing the BEST POSSIBLE OUTPUT QUALITY




oh and just a fwiw, but i tried googling that JVC DRM100 a little further, still can't find any info from any respected sites...but i did find this on videohelp.com that you might find interesting...i'm guessing lordsmurf would be one of those "professionals at the site you respect", i know he's been there for years...anyhow thought you might find it interesting:
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/229061-JVC-DR-M10-VS-DR-M100-Maybe-not-exactly-the-same!

Lordsmurf is a big fan of that unit, as well.

[He] makes his living as a pro DVD transfer technician

i'm glad that Lordsmurf is a fan of that standalone DVD recorder and makes a living as a "DVD transfer technician"...good for him!

[despite the fact that pretty much anyone in the video field would laugh at quoting a site like videohelp.com for tech info, i linked to those Lordsmurf posts anyway cuz i know how you revere that site and its "pros" like senor smurf]

you have said repeatedly [including your description of yer set up a few posts above ^^] that you use the Sony DCR-TRV740 Digi8 camcorder, the JVC DRM100 standalone DVD recorder, & the Panasonic DMR-ES10 standalone DVD recorder all for their DNR & TBC functions, correct?


but according to Lordsmurf himself in this videohelp.com thread (http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/229061-JVC-DR-M10-VS-DR-M100-Maybe-not-exactly-the-same!):

I still remember how certain pamphlets said the JVC had a TBC, which it does not. None of these machines has a TBC. In fact, most machines that say they have a TBC have a "TBC-like circuit" at best. Only the pro-line JVC has a TBC, that I'm aware of to date, as part of the SR-series VCR inside.

Just a screw-up in documentation. Not unheard of.

"Super MPEG Post-Processor: Block Noise Reduction Circuit, Color DigiPure and Hadamard Noise Reduction System" is all just a bunch of crap fancy names anyway. All this really means is the unit has an advanced DNR system. Last time they marketed it, this time they're not.

so it seems there's no TBC used in the JVC DRM100 SA recorder, but it does use some sort of DNR

DMR-ES10 does not have a TBC. The filters are for especial use only. General VHS improvements (grain reduction, chroma noise removal) are basically non-existant. Pass on this model for VHS work. The only valuable filter it has is for tearing, which many people never experience anyway.

no TBC or DNR in this model either

and we've already established that Sony DCR-TRV740 camcorder's TBC/DNR functions are seemingly non-existant as well...so we're left with absolutely no TBC in your transferring chain, and one stage of DNR being done at the end in the JVC standalone DVD recorder, with no control over "what" and "how much" is being processed/filtered



meanwhile, you could've bought a *brand new* entry-level A>D converter, such as the ADVC300, for less $ than two used pieces of equipment you've listed above [according to the average used prices you've quoted]...the ADVC300 definitively utilizes both TBC and DNR, will generate SMPTE color bars [necessary for color correction], and most importantly all parameters are manually adjustable by the user = a better quality capture

sabkisscrue
2010-02-24, 12:13 PM
1. no where on Sony's site does it say that this camera employs a TBC or any sort of DNR filters
and we've already established that Sony DCR-TRV740 camcorder's TBC/DNR functions are seemingly non-existant as well..

Well, its unfortunate you didnt find that out in your research.
It should be pretty well documented.
But it does in fact employ tbc/dnr. Its in the menu.

so it seems there's no TBC used in the JVC DRM100 SA recorder, but it does use some sort of DNR

I agree with Lordsmurf but not with your cynical assessment "some sort of dnr".

so we're left with absolutely no TBC in your transferring chain

The svhs has a tbc. I see the one show you have uploaded that it appears you transferred from a vhs tape was done on an ag1980. Not a professional deck, I may add. But it does have a good line tbc. Although image wise, I prefer the 9800 over the AG1980. I even posted that on videohelp.

meanwhile, you could've bought a *brand new* entry-level A>D converter, such as the ADVC300, for less $ than two used pieces of equipment you've listed above [according to the average used prices you've quoted]...the ADVC300 definitively utilizes both TBC and DNR, will generate SMPTE color bars [necessary for color correction], and most importantly all parameters are manually adjustable by the user = a better quality capture

Until you mentioned this to me in PM I didnt know what this was, I thought it was a Canopus and that same model Canopus doesnt contain a tbc/dnr, from what ive heard/read.

As far as "better quality capture", that is subjective.

In my opinion, you as a pro would be pleased with the quality of my captures.

AAR.oner
2010-02-24, 01:26 PM
again, i'm not saying yer transfers are complete shit or unwatchable or anything personal -- i'm just saying that if yer doing VHS transfers of rare older footage and want the best quality transfer possible [within reason of course], using a digi8 as your A/D converter > SA DVD recorder is not gonna give you the best possible results -- especially when dealing with a non-perfect or high gen source

is that JVC model better than a lot of the other SA models that were on the market at that time? i don't know, but lets say yeah it was one of the best SAs...but is it as good as doing a direct capture from deck > dedicated A/D converter [such as the ADVC300] > Final Cut...sorry, but the answers no


there's numerous issues with SA recorders in general, and the JVC model yer referring to as well, when compared to a direct capture...i'd be more than happy list them if yer interested, but i'm thinkin this is all falling on deaf ears anyway

Im more than aware that there is the way of encoding it that I do it and firewire to pc/vbr encoding.

We're talking about VHS here though.

This requires a different way of doing things because
vhs is full of noise, full of off colors, and otherwise crappy. So it requires those filters, I use a JVC HRS-9800U svhs with a tbc/dnr, a panasonic es10 (as a pass through device, corrects the black level, helps to correct some vhs jitter), a sony tr740 digital8 to further clean up the image, and finally a jvc drm-100.

The final result is something that I really must tell you is often better than the source and thats because certain things are considered.
S-Video Wiring (AR Pro II Series). I want the seperation of the colors and the richness and brightness of them, that is absent from most dvds. Also, the s-video I use does get a lot of detail out of the image. Black level.
Cleanness. Nearly every piece of equipment I use works to help either clean up or correct something. The Sony which you dont like, actually does help to clean up the image. The JVC does has strong noise reduction filters that truely clean up the image even more and that "encoder" that is in that recorder is one of the best ever put into a SA recorder (more on that later). Believe me, even you as a pro would like this unit.
Clean, colorful, full of detail (even with all that filtering), and few compression artifacts. I use the hightest bitrates. But, I of course have stuff pc authored as well, in that case ill dub things to mini dv tape and have that person encode it over a computer.

does everything go over yer head completely??? or do you just ignore the point so you don't have to admit the truth

you touched on 3 separate topics which need to dealt with individually:

FILTERING:
i think we've pretty much cleared up the subject of DNR/TBC re: method/devices yer using...but even assuming it does improve picture quality over using nothing at all, are there other devices available that would improve picture quality even further while still staying within a low-end budget? yes

CABLING:
thats a whole nother discussion that everyone will have a differing opinion on and in all honesty, has a negligible effect at best and very little quantitative data supporting one way or the other...so to each their own on brands of cable

ENCODING:
an *extremely* important process that most people overlook...and no offense, but this is FACT -- a built-in encoder on a standalone DVD recorder is inferior to a program-based encoding program because:


1. its encoding on-the-fly...this means its capturing, processing the information, filtering/etc, and then compressing all at the same time...which leads to digital artifacts, dropped frames, "glitches", and many other issues


2. most standalone DVD recorders will only let you set bit rates according to approximate "quality levels" ...what it doesn't allow you to control is how many passes it makes [2-pass vs 1-pass] or CBR vs VBR...i think everyone can agree that 2-pass encoding is a good idea all the time, but a necessity when it comes to non-master or aged/"imperfect" sources like we're talking about...

not to mention the audio aspect, with some recorders allowing you to choose between the desired lossless PCM stream or a compressed stream [AC3]...but many that simply compress the audio to AC3 automatically with no option otherwise


3. there are numerous encoding engines out there, all which use various methods and algorithms...they are not all the same, quality varies greatly...and there is no question here -- 99% of the standalone units use very basic, "low-end" encoders for compression when compared with software-based encoders


4. your standalone recorder [JVC DRM100] and most standalones out there capture at Half D1, which is a resolution of 352x480 (NTSC) and 352x576 (PAL)...note that this is half of the horizontal resolution of standard D1 [DVD specs]

some will bring up the fact that VHS itself only has a resolution of 350x480 (NTSC), so why would capturing at full D1 even matter? loooong story short -- i can say results vary, i've seen instances where you got better quality at Half D1, and others at full D1...also depends on what, if any, processing you are going to be doing in the editing process [color correction, etc]
[I]
either way, you want the options so you can get the best out of that particualr source


==============================================

again, i haven't spent all this time breaking all this shit down in order to make you look like an idiot or say yer transfers suck...and although it seems you've created quite a reputation for yerself across the online trading communities, i'm trying to ignore all that and keep this discussion technological in nature so that anyone wanting to get into or already doing VHS transfers will know the facts, the specs, the options, and how they all relate to output quality


there's really no arguing that standalone DVD recorders are an outdated technology, and 99.9% of the models they put on the market were designed for home-use and "basement dub houses"...that's why they were never used on any scale by the professional video industry, they produce an inferior "product" compared to other tools available...the tools available now in 2010 make this fact even more apparent



CLIFF NOTES:
you will get far more desirable results in your VHS transfers using a dedicated A>D converter, with manually adjustable filtering [DNR, TBC, etc], and capturing with a dedicated NLE [Final Cut, Adobe Premiere, Sony Vegas, etc]

once all editing/processing has been done in yer NLE, use a software-based encoder to compress down to yer desired format [DVD, DVD9, Blu-ray, or whatever]...if yer a Mac person like myself, i use a variety of encoders depending on output format -- Episode Pro, Sorensen Squeeze Pro, or Compressor

for PC users, i know Cinemacraft makes an excellent encoder, Grass Valley's Procoder also highly revered...and NLE's like Sony Vegas or Adobe Premiere come bundled with compression engines that will give far better results than any SA recorder

AAR.oner
2010-02-24, 02:26 PM
its apparent that you skirt the factual parts of the discussion and instead like to stear it back to the subjective, your opinion

but by gones, i'll address them anyway

1. no where on Sony's site does it say that this camera employs a TBC or any sort of DNR filters
Well, its unfortunate you didnt find that out in your research.
It should be pretty well documented.
But it does in fact employ tbc/dnr. Its in the menu.
"unfortunate i couldn't find it" and "should be pretty well documented"???? thats your response, really?!

well a Flip MinoHD shoots just as good a picture as the Sony EX3...and i've got a 2ft cock, which my woman will even confirm ;) :lol:

FACTS my man, FACTS--specs, manufacturing documentation, etc...but even if it does have TBC/DNR, it still doesn't address the fact a dedicated TBC/DNR/ProcAmp that are *manually controllable* will provide far better results


so it seems there's no TBC used in the JVC DRM100 SA recorder, but it does use some sort of DNR
I agree with Lordsmurf but not with your cynical assessment "some sort of dnr".

nothing cynical about, i meant that it employs DNR filtering whose specifics are unknown [which Senor Smurf pointed out also]




so we're left with absolutely no TBC in your transferring chain
The svhs has a tbc. I see the one show you have uploaded that it appears you transferred from a vhs tape was done on an ag1980. Not a professional deck, I may add. But it does have a good line tbc. Although image wise, I prefer the 9800 over the AG1980. I even posted that on videohelp.

my apologies, yer JVC HRS-9800U SVHS deck does employ TBC...its the other 2 devices that don't

again with personal attacks & trying to demean others in order to skirt the issues!

as for the "one show i've u/led from a VHS transfer" -- yer research skills re: what people have u/led are lacking to say the least! but neither the # of shows i've u/led nor whether you *think* the AG1980P was a "professional deck" or not matters very little





what matters is image quality -- and when it comes to a particular VHS tape sometimes my Panasonic will better, sometimes another make/model like yer JVC will do better -- lots of factors, and its never a constant...which is why its best to have numerous decks available, and if you don't its best to have someone else with a different deck transfer for comparison...i myself have considered picking up that JVC deck you have as an extra option

i have transferred a number of tapes that i'm pretty sure would have done better on a different deck, but i didn't spend the time and i ended up with a product that coulda been better...some i'm planning on re-transferring, others i don't have the original tapes for...because of my choice to simply stick with the gear thats in front of me at the moment, and not try transferring on other decks, its now like Tupac said, "That's just the way it is"



meanwhile, you could've bought a *brand new* entry-level A>D converter, such as the ADVC300, for less $ than two used pieces of equipment you've listed above [according to the average used prices you've quoted]...the ADVC300 definitively utilizes both TBC and DNR, will generate SMPTE color bars [necessary for color correction], and most importantly all parameters are manually adjustable by the user = a better quality capture

Until you mentioned this to me in PM I didnt know what this was, I thought it was a Canopus and that same model Canopus doesnt contain a tbc/dnr, from what ive heard/read.[/QUOTE]


it [I]was made by Canopus, which was then bought by Green Valley...back when you first came to this site you tried to tell me in a thread about transferring that the ADVC300 didn't have TBC...i even posted a link to the manufacturer's site then, but here it is again:
http://www.grassvalley.com/products/advc300

is it the best out there? no...would a full frame 4:2:2 TBC give better results a lot of the time? sure...but from the A>D devices i've used and those that my associates have used that employ TBC & DNR, i can honestly say its the best unit out there in the <$2K range [its currently running around $375 New]


would i be pleased with yer DVD recorders built DNR & TBC? some of the times yeah, and others no...yer missin the fucking point!!! its about being able to control your DNR filter's various parameters versus as opposed to an automatic filter that does what it thinks is best...i'm sorry, but the hands-on approach wins every time

schmoe75
2010-02-24, 06:32 PM
like Tupac said, "That's just the way it is"
Bruuuce wrote & said that :disbelief

AAR.oner
2010-02-24, 07:06 PM
Bruuuce wrote & said that :disbelief

Porn Scene Investigator Bruuuce?



http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/pv/Bruce%20Vilanch-4.jpg

schmoe75
2010-02-24, 07:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1NAGhiVqdg

sabkisscrue
2010-02-24, 10:45 PM
"unfortunate i couldn't find it" and "should be pretty well documented"???? thats your response, really?!.


I guess you didnt try and download the manual then.

" even if it does have TBC/DNR, it still doesn't address the fact a dedicated TBC/DNR/ProcAmp that are *manually controllable* will provide far better results

Im well aware of pro amps and other devices.

Heres the facts, AAR. Im getting the results im looking for WITHOUT having to use a professional proc amp. Now you might disagree with the way im going about doing it. What matters is im getting the results im looking for.


i guess a $2K SVHS desktop editor labeled "Pro Line" & used primarily in broadcast & production houses isn't a "pro deck" in yer estimation

No, its well documented that it isnt a professional deck. I own one of these. Its a prosumer deck. I admit that the 9800 is not a professional deck, but it is a consumer deck.

and when it comes to a particular VHS tape sometimes my Panasonic will better, sometimes another make/model like yer JVC will do better

In terms of image quality, I prefer the JVC.
In terms of tbc stability, the panasonic is one of the best. I wish I could own a deck that had the image quality/dnr filters of the JVC with the tbc of the panasonic.



it was made by Canopus, which was then bought by Green Valley...back when you first came to this site you tried to tell me in a thread about transferring that the ADVC300 didn't have TBC...i even posted a link to the manufacturer's site then, but here it is again:
http://www.grassvalley.com/products/advc300

Check this out:

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/315472-Non-experimental-thread-on-best-known-VHS-BD-DVD-methods?p=1961020

What do you think of Lordsmurf's opinion on the ADVC300?


would i be pleased with yer DVD recorders built DNR & TBC? some of the times yeah, and others no...yer missin the fucking point!!! its about being able to control your DNR filter's various parameters versus as opposed to an automatic filter that does what it thinks is best...i'm sorry, but the hands-on approach wins every time

I understand the gripe. You cant control the DNR. You cant turn it on/off.
Does that mean this piece of equipment is a piece of garbage? No.
Would you benefit from using this unit?
Yes you would. Why? Because I see with multi generated tapes like the Blind Melon that you authored, the tape would benefit from being cleaned up with the DNR filters of that machine. I pretty much think any VHS no matter if its 1st gen or multi generated would benefit from the filters and encoding quality of this machine.

schmoe75
2010-02-24, 11:23 PM
I guess you didnt try and download the manual then.
Link?

What matters is im getting the results im looking for.

Check this out:
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/315472-Non-experimental-thread-on-best-known-VHS-BD-DVD-methods?p=1961020
What do you think of Lordsmurf's opinion on the ADVC300?

I pretty much think any VHS no matter if its 1st gen or multi generated would benefit from the filters and encoding quality of this machine.


Nice job of providing a link to furthur legitimize that you standalone capture is the worst way possible...which is ok, you've found what you're striving for :thumbsup
Your capture format won't be the same as your encoded format. You want to minimize quality losses at each stage, so avoid capturing with MPEG2.


For the "best" work, filter as much as you can before the computer gets the video. Proc amps, detailers, TBC, good VCR, etc

MPEG is not bad for capturing unless you're just compressing it to DVD specs AND plan to re-encode it later.

sabkisscrue
2010-02-24, 11:45 PM
Link?

Took a little bit of trouble, but I was able to download a pdf file of the manual.

http://safemanuals.com/user-guide-instructions-owner-manual/SONY/DCR-TRV740-_S


Nice job of providing a link to furthur legitimize that you standalone capture is the worst way possible...which is ok, you've found what you're striving for :thumbsup

I think what you said here is at the very least absurd.
It would be best for your vhs tapes, to adopt my choice of equipment and my methods of transfer. In fact, im willing to prove that, if you let me transfer any of your vhs tapes shot by the Tripod Guy, I will get better results than you have. No matter the condition of the tape or the generation.

But lets also understand something, I never asked nor needed your advice or assessment, AAR's either. You have a right to your opinion though. The fact is im willing to prove it.

sabkisscrue
2010-02-25, 12:11 AM
are there other devices available that would improve picture quality even further while still staying within a low-end budget? yes

And your answer to that, is the filters of the ADVC300. Which in Lordsmurf's opinion they suck and should be turned off.

4. your standalone recorder [JVC DRM100] and most standalones out there capture at Half D1

This is not a fact.
This is gotten beyond absurd now.
Ive bit my tongue long enough.
Fact is, I get the results im looking for.
Not that it matters, but ive not seen any results you have gotten (im not sure if Schmoe did in fact transfer the Tripod Guy stuff, but if he did I know I could produce better results from the same tapes, try me).
I understand what you have to say though when it comes to switching vcrs and controlling the filters and thats something ive been well aware of for sometime now. You are not telling me anything I dont know.

The point is, you need an aggressive amount of filtering to clean up vhs chroma and luminance noise.
My equipment does the job, period and im willing to prove that.

sabkisscrue
2010-02-25, 12:19 AM
Btw,
Going out on a limb here and assuming Schmoe did the transfers he uploaded shot by the Tripod Guy.

This is the equipment he used:

JVC HR-S9911U > Monster M2000HDSV S-Video Cable > Canopus ADVC300

The 9911 is considered the worse out of all the 9000 model JVC SVHS's with TBC/DNR, in terms of build quality. The best being the 9600 and the 9800 (which I use).

Monster is not the best cables. In fact, these are considered to be some of the crappiest cables out there.

Canopus ADVC300, is also considered by someone whos opinion I respect as he was dead on about the filters and encode quality of the DRM100, that the filters on this suck and should be turned off. You cannot rely on the filters alone of the 9911 though. You need additional filters, such as the DRM100, etc.

Limulus
2010-02-25, 03:42 AM
hello, into dvdr (hobby) authoring since early 2003 myself, still constantly doing transfers video and audio. the quality issue has always been an interesting subject to me. no time to go into all the details here, lots of good stuff being mentioned allready and also some i dont agree with, but when going for the subjective matter of quality i would like to add and recommend this:

if you have an (to you) important vhs source and have some lets say semi-pro equipment from wich you are getting nice results in general:
do multiple transfers!!

from my experience there is no way to have ONE standard set-up which works best for every vhs. it might give some standard "ok" transfer but when wanting the best you will get significantly different results often when doing different tranfers you can compare. this means: change vcr settings, vcrs, cables, filters etc. from the same source vhs!
for example lets take a TBC: TBC1000 here....it gives an inferior result most of the time, in my opinion TBCs (also internal vcr tbcs) mostly fuck up the image in some bad way (then again its needed at points like having a troubled vhs where a non TBC capture gives many dropped frames) BUT i also have a few shows where the dvdr simply looks best when using this device! at other points a cheaper vcr (JVC3500) is far sharper than my JVC 9600, another time my stand alone-recorder dvdr looks better than an DV/PC-transfer encoded 9pass, its kinda.....you never know exactly which transfer works best for the source vhs. so if you are willing to go for this, you gotta take the time to do multiple transfers and compare them. if this effort is not an issue you still could at least do some tests yourself like taking an unimportant vhs and try like 1min captures in different ways (tbc on, tbc off, NR on, NR off....different cables etc.) and compare them exactly on dvdrw and tv(!), then decide what way works best for you and stick to that.

bigwurock
2010-02-25, 09:49 AM
i have done a few transfers here..by no means not with anything pro equipment.....
i use....

jvc super vhs hr-s3800u>s-video>canopus advc100>firewire>pc>vegas6......

by any means pro...no...good results...yea pretty good....the one reason i like the canopus is not just for the filters but the audio lock..which after playing a 2 hour vhs the audio could drift...

i think alot that people have forgot about transferring vhs is that you can only get the best result on how good the vhs is that you have...ex. how good is that 2nd gen vhs you have? how were the first 2 copies made..?..age of vhs, how many times has the vhs been played..ect...was the first copy off the master done good? i have seen 4th gen vhs that look better than 2nd gen..so alot depends on the right coping of the vhs too..

since i really don't follow up on standalone recorders i don't know alot of details about them...though they do remind of the cheap-lazy way to transfer...lol...are they the worst quality...?...thats all debateable...i have seen some really good quality shows made from them but i never saw the vhs they came from so i am assuming the vhs was really good quality by itself...not knocking them but not what i prefer to use..the one i had was pretty basic...you could not adjust the true bitrate..only could to 1 hour, 2 hour, 3 hour and 4 hour...and plus you can only do ac3 audio...which in itself is worthless....that was about 4 years ago so not sure if you can adjust bitrate and use lpcm audio now with a standalone..?...

why i think pc is better..first of all i use vegas6...yep still stuck on vegas6..just that i like it so well and never really upgraded...vegas is considered a very good video editing software that by itself beats a standalone recording right there....vegas you can crop and adjust the video..the whole thing or parts, i can put in new audio that is better than the master source (usually anyways), i can split the video if needed..say if there is a pause or frames missing...you can still use the new audio and fill in the video with whatever you want..stills or moving pictures...i can adjust the bitrate to anything i want to..can use lpcm audio..i can edit colors ect..but i usually don't cause then you run into the new debate of everyones tv is set up differently...i can go on and on with options in vegas...

what really bugs me the most of what people transfer is that some don't use the best audio possible...why in the world do you want to use ac3 audio on a show you work hard on and then put crappy ac3 on it...sometimes it can't be helped but for the most part that people author stuff up on standalone keep that junk ac3 audio on it...people that even run vegas or anyother pc program still use ac3...why..?...granted there are times where it cannot be helped but most of the time it can...can go on here also....lol

the lineage really confuses me here too...

Lineage: Master Reels (3/4 inch tape) > Master VHS > 1st gen 8mm >
Sony TRV-740 Digital8 Camera with TBC/DNR > firewire > JVC DRM-100 Dvd Recorder >
XP mode > 2 dvd-r SA Authored with ac3 audio > Reauthored on a DUAL LAYER by Skulljam9 without Re-Encoding

there can only be 1 "master" but in lossless state, copies should be as good as the master if done right...but not in this case...reminds me of the old days of audio when DAT was being used...people would label their analog tapes this way..DAT>cassette master...it is not a master from the show..maybe a master of a different source..??..this all gets debatable too...not sure how you get a master vhs off of master reels..?..

anyways i can go on and on...these are all opinions and thats all...

AAR.oner
2010-02-25, 09:53 AM
:headbang2 lordsmurf lordsmurf lordsmurf, for fuck's sake -- the guy's name is Lord and smurf and you think he walks on water?!?!?!


1. obviously every little bit of information you get comes from videohelp.com
2. obviously when it comes to video editing, the real experts only post at videohelp.com
3. obviously if yer happy with the results, there's no reason to try and improve and there are no better routes
4. when in doubt, stick yer head up yer ass, ignore the world, and post a link to videohelp.com

i think that about sums it up -- textbook n00b 101 shit...i've got to forward this stuff on to some other folks i know cuz its classic! but by all means, you and Lordsmurf are the experts :rolleyes:



i'm sorry but just because some random nobody, and i mean nobody, says something on a BB, that doesn't make it true -- not me, not you, and certainly not a guy who refers t himself as "lordsmurf"...when there's numerous people saying somethin, its worth a look...when a majority of the field agrees, i'll take it as a given

so sorry, no i don't really give much weight to Lordsmurf's opinion...nor do i need you, someone who's never worked in the field, to validate whether my SVHS deck is "professional" or not [again you skirt technical issues by making attacks, pretty obvious and weak]...

the deal is is no one else around here agrees with you, no one believes using 10+ yo outdated gear made for consumers is gonna give you better results than a dedicated transfer station -- even the people d/ling yer supposed upgrade thought it was worse than the other upgrade circulating...when the whole worlds telling you yer wrong, ya might wanna listen



don't come whining when sites like this don't allow you to seed yer shows anymore -- because just like MiniDisc, standalone transfers will be seen to the door for what they are, inferior..."i recorded a show on my phone, its mp3 but it sounds good to me" -- sorry no...the "its good enough for me" defense holds no weight!

the good part is we wanted to use this discussion to show some of the typical misinformation circulating within the amateur VHS transferring circles, so that others might learn what to do and what not to do [and how not to act]...i think you pretty much played the part i knew you would :thumbsup

AAR.oner
2010-02-25, 10:04 AM
cheers for chiming in wu & Limulus :cheers:

sabkisscrue
2010-02-25, 10:51 AM
i'm sorry but just because some random nobody, and i mean nobody, says something on a BB, that doesn't make it true -- not me, not you, and certainly not a guy who refers t himself as "lordsmurf"...when there's numerous people saying somethin, its worth a look...when a majority of the field agrees, i'll take it as a given

Lordsmurf is not a nobody. Remember, he makes his living doing what you and I are talking about.

so sorry, no i don't really give much weight to Lordsmurf's opinion...nor do i need you, someone who's never worked in the field, to validate whether my SVHS deck is "professional" or not [again you skirt technical issues by making attacks, pretty obvious and weak]...

When did I attack you?

the deal is is no one else around here agrees with you

Doesnt matter if they agree or not.

no one believes using 10+ yo outdated gear made for consumers is gonna give you better results than a dedicated transfer station

Doesnt matter what anyone believes.

even the people d/ling yer supposed upgrade thought it was worse than the other upgrade circulating

Remember, those were the same people who didnt see anything wrong with the previous version.

don't come whining when sites like this don't allow you to seed yer shows anymore

Whats that supposed to mean?

standalone transfers will be seen to the door for what they are, inferior

This is what someone who I know just wrote:

another time my stand alone-recorder dvdr looks better than an DV/PC-transfer encoded 9pass

the good part is we wanted to use this discussion to show some of the typical misinformation circulating within the amateur VHS transferring circles

I gotta tell you, I let you give me advice because you said you were a professional and im hugely disappointed, not because you insulted me but because I didnt learn anything new.
As far as being called an "amateur".
I wont even bother to respond to that.

awolfoutwest
2010-02-25, 10:55 AM
Im sure youd agree with me as you been doing this since 2004, that not all tapes should have the tbc/dnr engaged. I use the 9800, and it works with some tapes and some it doesnt.
Yep, I've found that as well. I just cut & pasted that capture chain data from a recent release that employed it.

Which ones do you use? Id really suggest you try the very affordable Acoustic Research PRO II Series. Youd be very pleased.
I have Acoustic Research PRO II cables as well, and I do indeed like them :)
In my research, I dont believe pro equipment is the way to go, it was suggested pro svhs decks were the best, that turned out to be false. It should be about what works BEST, IMO.
Any blanket statement like that is bound to be flawed. I agree with the last statement about what works best, but you'll find arguments for both sides of the pro vs. consumer debate depending on the specific make & model of equipment you're discussing.

I also have a Panasonic DMR-ES10 DVD Recorder (http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/214666-Panasonic-DMR-ES10-Reviewed), but I never use it for capture. I never knew it had any filtering or pass-thru capability, because it was just a replacement for the old home theater VCR. It does have an adjustable record length function, so you can optimize bitrate. I did do a side by side comparison of record quality a couple of years ago, but my PC capture blew away the standalone so I never gave it a second thought.

My preferred method is to capture to avi, spend some time looking at different filter results, then encode with the best processing I can determine for that video. I look at the video through software Vectorscope and Waveform Monitor apps to see how the color ranges conform to broadcast standards, then tweak black level and other proc amp stuff as needed. I wouldn't want to rely on a solely hardware chain because I can't go back and tweak things later.

Many folks who transfer to PC use a DV-based NLE program for capture, editing and encoding. For me, even the intermediate compression of analog > DV is to be avoided. DV is a lossy codec, even though I've seen assertions of DV being lossless more times than not. Digital video is more like 248600kbps for uncompressed RGB, 165800kbps for uncompressed YUY2, around 50000kbps using HuffYUV lossless YUY2 codec (my method), DV-AVI (Sony Digital Video standard) is 25000kbps, and DVD standard allows for 10080kbps. Sony DV is often thought of as lossless, but it is actually very lossy. (Note: all video numbers above based on a resolution of 720 x 480. PAL video would be approximately 20% larger.)

Here is a restoration sample (http://rapidshare.com/files/355727606/RestoSample4-28-91.rar) from my latest release (141MB). The section from 1:20 to 1:40 has raw cap to final processed video side-by-side. Remember when watching this clip on an LCD monitor it will likely appear dark. I do my color correction using a calibrated CRT. Most consumer LCD monitors are unreliable for color. LCD monitors with accurate color representation are available, but quite expensive last I checked.

sabkisscrue
2010-02-25, 10:56 AM
obviously if yer happy with the results, there's no reason to try and improve and there are no better routes

Even though you have a great deal of nerve, you did say that and that sums it up best.

sabkisscrue
2010-02-25, 11:29 AM
I have Acoustic Research PRO II cables as well, and I do indeed like them :)


Wow and cool about the ES10, too.

awolfoutwest
2010-02-25, 11:36 AM
:headbang2 lordsmurf lordsmurf lordsmurf, for fuck's sake -- the guy's name is Lord and smurf and you think he walks on water?!?!?! [snip] i'm sorry but just because some random nobody, and i mean nobody, says something on a BB, that doesn't make it true -- not me, not you, and certainly not a guy who refers to himself as "lordsmurf"

Why focus on his screen name? Totally irrelevent. Kevin (lordsmurf) is a really nice guy who I've corresponded with occasionally since I started transferring. I can't vouch for his credentials, but he isn't just spouting bad info. He is in the commercial video field, and much of what he says is verifiable and sound. Has he been in error on some things? Yes, but so have you and I. The info he provides is just that - another voice to be compared with other knowledgeable voices to form a consensus. No single source should be relied upon, in my opinion. He is genuinely trying to help the online video community and doesn't deserve to be dragged through the mud because you're frustrated.

AAR.oner
2010-02-25, 11:50 AM
nothing to do with nerve, it has to do with you and the :woosh: syndrome


much like the CoolEdit remasterers, you simply will never get it...enjoy!

AAR.oner
2010-02-25, 12:18 PM
Why focus on his screen name? Totally irrelevent. Kevin (lordsmurf) is a really nice guy who I've corresponded with occasionally since I started transferring. I can't vouch for his credentials, but he isn't just spouting bad info. He is in the commercial video field, and much of what he says is verifiable and sound. Has he been in error on some things? Yes, but so have you and I. The info he provides is just that - another voice to be compared with other knowledgeable voices to form a consensus. No single source should be relied upon, in my opinion. He is genuinely trying to help the online video community and doesn't deserve to be dragged through the mud because you're frustrated.

:thumbsup nothing against him personally, i got frustrated with sabkisscrue's incessant "lordsmurf" name drops and with the constant ignoring of fact [data, specs, etc] for subjective opinion and speculation...as quite a few have pointed out, trying to discuss anythng with sabkisscrue/deuce8pro/etc is like running in circles banging yer head against a wall...i was hoping he'd prove them wrong...oh well by gones

but i sincerely apologize if it came off as "dragging him [lordsmurf] through the mud"...i don't doubt his experience & knowledge, but i also don't know him or can vouch that his word means anything [lets face it, videohelp.com isn't exactly the online hub of video professional worldwide ;) ]...and i certainly ain't gonna take the constant referencing of one person's opinion as the end-all-be-all, cuz as you accurately pointed out -- there's a lot of expert voices

we've all been wrong, and we all know that there's no press-a-button-done solution...don't take my ord on anything, GO OUT AND TRY DIFFERENT METHODS! but there are general rules-of-thumb, & i'll stick with the methods & opinions of a) the people i know personally who do this in far higher capacities than i, b) personal experience & training, and c) the overall consensus of the professional video community

those who wanna ignore everything but their way, by all means...slainte! :cheers:

awolfoutwest
2010-02-25, 10:44 PM
lets face it, videohelp.com isn't exactly the online hub of video professional worldwide ;)
True, but it is a well-known hub of video amateurs (denoting that amateurs do not get paid for their work and are not necessarily professionally trained, not that amateurs do not do good work). And that is what this discussion is about. I rely far more on Doom9 these days, as they have THE avisynth discussion forum, but I have found plenty of good info on videohelp. As I said, no one source should be exclusively relied upon, but those are good resources from the amateur point of view. I have honestly never checked out the sites you listed (http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1364480&postcount=74) in the VH thread, so thanks for those resources. :thumbsup I don't do DV or use an NLE, but I'm sure there's plenty to learn at those sites.

lordsmurf
2010-03-04, 12:17 AM
It's always interesting what a Google Alerts will find. :wave:

To further the content of this conversation, I think this recent post about the definition of timebase correctors (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showthread.php/alternative-avt-8710-1853.html?p=9889#post9889) is a must-read for you:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showthread.php/alternative-avt-8710-1853.html?p=9889#post9889

Just some general comments to things I read above...


Videohelp does have professionals, although few of them advertise it, for various reasons. But, alas, yes, it is heavily loaded down with "vid kiddies" that want to copy and download only, having no creative interests.

Many JVC S-VHS machines are considered late-gen pro decks, aimed at freelance and digital-age needs, rather than 1980s style rack-mounted analog workflows. These are not "consumers VCRs" to be lumped in with a $50 Quasar from Kmart.

If this is your hobby, then spend $500 on it to make a good product for yourself, and others that you share it with. DVDs with tracking errors, shimmering red/blue chroma noise, and hissy audio is sad. That can all be fixed with just a little bit of effort. It's still cheaper than a lot of other hobbies, be it cars or comic books.

Early series JVC DVD recorders are not "bottom barrel" consumer items, being higher-end prosumer items available only from choice outlets like B&H, Fry's, J&R, Crutchfield, etc. These were not from Walmart or Best Buy, like so many crappy Panasonic machines. The machines use an LSI Logic chipset, and various LSI chipsets are used all the way up to high end broadcast workstations. Several pro JVC models used these chipsets, too, before LSI was acquired, and JVC ended their own DVD lines.

ADVC300 filters are well known for excess filtering, often inducing posterizing (color palette compression), temporal blended (ghosts) and other artifacts. The Panasonic ES10 exhibits similar problems when it's rudimentary DNR is turned on.

I've seen $20 USB capture cards from a grocery store outperform a $1,000+ pro Matrox card. Why? The codecs, chipsets and designs. There's more to video gear than brand, age or cost. Do not mistakenly think a device bought in 2010 will outperform a device from 2000, just because of age. If anything, gear from 2006-2010 is very inferior to some of the items available in 1995-2005.

Most DVD recorders record at 720x480, even when it's a stupid idea. For example, Panasonic machines (ES10 is one!) in 4-hour mode, where the image is almost Lego-like because of the blocks. The best ones drop to Half D1, which is still higher res than VHS, when the compression starts to ramp up.


I do see a lot of good video gear and software (and methods) being talked about here. It's a nice little debate you have going on.
Don't see much talk about audio mixers and processor boards, though.

Take care. :)

lordsmurf
2010-03-04, 12:34 AM
Hmmm.... must be a time limiting on editing a post....
Anyway, to add to the above:

FYI, if you want to find pros on a video site, ask about U-matic, SDI, HDV workflows, Aja cards, Matrox cards, Betacam SP or Digital Betacam (DigiBeta), or Avid workstations. The only people who can answer most of those questions tend to be pros in the field. Or just look for past threads on those topics.

Just a tip. ;)

AAR.oner
2010-03-04, 09:51 AM
cheers for the links re: TBC, i'll have to read thru that later...personally haven't experienced any noticeable artifacts/ghosting/etc with the ADVC like you mentioned, but i reckon its entirely possible


as for this site, typically discussion re: AJA/Matrox/Avid stations/etc isn't gonna happen since the vast majority of tapers today wouldn't know what yer talking about much less have the $$ to spend...its hard enough to explain why Nero isn't a good software choice for capturing/authoring DVDs, don't think they're gonna be buyin a Kona or MXO2 ;)

sabkisscrue
2010-03-04, 03:08 PM
:clap:

gates69
2010-03-05, 03:16 PM
All I can tell you people is to run far, far away from sabkisscrue/deuce8pro. No amount or reason or common sense, will change him. He has been this way for 10 years. I would guess a lonely person with some sort of mental illness, but that's just the armchair shrink in me.
Good luck to you all!

steecoe
2010-03-06, 10:04 AM
All I can tell you people is to run far, far away from sabkisscrue/deuce8pro. No amount or reason or common sense, will change him. He has been this way for 10 years. I would guess a lonely person with some sort of mental illness, but that's just the armchair shrink in me.
Good luck to you all!

:clap:

jcrab66
2010-03-10, 10:24 PM
where do those new sources of Zeppelin shows come from?

M_M_H
2010-03-17, 07:49 PM
:thumbsup nothing against him personally, i got frustrated with sabkisscrue's incessant "lordsmurf" name drops and with the constant ignoring of fact [data, specs, etc] for subjective opinion and speculation...as quite a few have pointed out, trying to discuss anythng with sabkisscrue/deuce8pro/etc is like running in circles banging yer head against a wall...

Looks like this character is at it again.:disbelief

http://www.vhtrading.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19493&start=345

lordsmurf
2010-03-18, 10:51 AM
M_M_H, deuce8 knows his tech*. We've had discussions for years now.

He also has a really good point about lazy leechers that don't do any work to actually track down the content that fans seek. While I'm not big on the concert/music scene, I run into similar problems with other videos. He's clearly as frustrated as I can be sometimes. I'm not talking about torrent leeching either -- but people that don't add anything new to the scene, just trading what others have made.

And it's also possible to be the ONLY person able to provide something new to the community -- I'm not getting into details. Let's just say it requires knowing the right people, and being able to acquire what they have.

Most of that thread appears to be people bickering. You have three groups participating, too: one group that is clueless on video, and two others that are arguing over how to do it.

My advice is this: You really don't want to piss off guys that do that much work, and bring new stuff to the table. If he leaves, you're going to miss his work -- even if you didn't like him as a person (attitude, whatever). The whole community loses when these people disappear. More often than not, it happens because of bad experiences with others.


*I've never seen his work, but his info is sound.

M_M_H
2010-03-18, 07:05 PM
My advice is this: You really don't want to piss off guys that do that much work, and bring new stuff to the table. If he leaves, you're going to miss his work -- even if you didn't like him as a person (attitude, whatever). The whole community loses when these people disappear. More often than not, it happens because of bad experiences with others.


*I've never seen his work, but his info is sound.

Gee, I didn't realize he was the only one on the planet

that was capable of finding & transferring tapes. :rolleyes:

Sometimes you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. :)

lordsmurf
2010-03-18, 09:23 PM
Flies are nasty -- I use insecticide and flyswatters. :)

boxedart
2010-03-19, 12:25 AM
Most of that thread appears to be people bickering. You have three groups participating, too: one group that is clueless on video, and two others that are arguing over how to do it

You left out pros like myself - I am not "clueless on video" and I am not "arguing over how to do it". I understand this is just a hobby and also understand that, when it comes to restoration, there is more to it than just popping a dub of a dub into a camera or VTR, hitting play, and than hitting record on a stand alone DVD burner. At it's core that is just another dub...the person who does it is not a god.

I also don't "argue" on the "how to do it" front because, as I stated, if this is just your hobby than get what works best for you - as a hobby. If a person is happy with simply making a new dub from an old format onto a new format, than cool beans. This thread arose because a person appears to take their hobby way to seriously and feels their dubbing method is the best that ever will be, could be and ever was, and not only are they happy with the results they feel everyone else should be as well.

As for your comment about someone being "the ONLY person able to provide something new to the community", that is highly doubtful. There is new material coming out all the time from all sorts of sources. This goes for the trading community as well as the real entertainment industry. There is no one person who has everything, nor is there just one person who's job it is to seek out everything. On the other hand if a person is living in their own space bubble it is possible for them to truly believe that they are "huge" and what they do is "great" thusly they "deserve respect" because, in their minds, they are "the only members of this community" providing material." But in reality, and mind you that I have been involved in the trading community for decades, that one person does not exist.

MDVidGuy
2010-03-19, 04:28 PM
"Deja Vu all over again"....yeah and again and again and again.

Don't dismiss what DeucePro brings to the table. He is the only person that most of us old schoolers trust to tranfer our stuff. He is the gateway to get all the old vids from those of us that were filming before the internet was in existence. I'll be Deuce is sitting on more uncirculated stuff than everyone on this site combined. That's not meant to brag or put him on a pedestal. What its meant to do is get the point across that we WANT TO CIRCULATE ALL THIS STUFF!!!!

What insentive do we have to do so when we get so much grief for uploading???

Most of this is just nit-picking to get people upset. Some of it is from sellers and hoarders who are making money or dont wanna see upgrades surface.

I personally don't wanna hoard, neither does Deuce. He is always encouraging me to upload. He had talked me in to uploading a 3 cam Ozzy from 96 that I dont think is circulated just last week but I got a bunch of bullshit when I uploaded the Tool 3 cam master that I decided against it.

Why can't everyone just say "thanks, this is great" and move on or just PM Deuce. He's the easiest fuckin guy on earth to get along with.

He just is. This is a shame.

MDVidGuy
2010-03-19, 04:29 PM
....and as for Boxedart....Deuce is the only person in this community to has access to the 700-800 masters that myself and Shadow are sitting on.

AAR.oner
2010-03-19, 07:23 PM
this thread was meant to be about technical information -- not personal bs...anything personal posted by others seems to be the bed sabkiss/Deuce made for himself over the years at various other sites...kinda like the bed you made for yerself here (http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1076839#post1076839) ;)


i mean no disrespect, but all these "hundreds of masters" are hearsay at best...coming from someone who's uploaded 1 show in 2 yrs [and not even bothered to seed back what ya took, whether via torrent or offering B&Ps/vines/etc], and another who's u/led 6 shows in 4 yrs -- it comes off a bit like smoke n mirrors...not sayin it ain't true, just that it appears to the rest of us to be "bullshit posturing" as they say...

most tapers don't sit around posting about all the masters/upgrades we're sittin on...when i get around to it, i'll transfer and upload...simple as that

but i ain't gotta keep tellin everyone about em, like its some ransom...the balls in yer court -- share yer tapes or don't...doesn't really matter in the scope of life one way or the other...but posting up w/o showing up is a bit, well, sad & pathetic


again, no disrespect...just an observation

sabkisscrue
2010-03-19, 07:50 PM
there is more to it than just popping a dub of a dub into a camera or VTR, hitting play, and than hitting record on a stand alone DVD burner.

Correct.

the person who does it is not a god.

Assertion.

This thread arose because a person appears to take their hobby way to seriously

You should be so fortunate that guys like myself
take this hobby seriously and provide material so that you could make unfounded comments about.

and feels their dubbing method is the best that ever will be, could be and ever was

Based on the results ive gotten, yes I would say emphatically
it is one of the best if not the best methods to transfer most vhs/svhs tapes.

and not only are they happy with the results they feel everyone else should be as well.

They should be and very lucky to have gotten any results at all.

As for your comment about someone being "the ONLY person able to provide something new to the community", that is highly doubtful. There is new material coming out all the time from all sorts of sources.

Its an absolute lie to say there are new sources coming out all the time. Where are they? Give me examples of "new material" video "sources" that pop up "all the time".

nor is there just one person who's job it is to seek out everything.

And what have you seeked out with a great deal of hard work and uploaded here other than some Avril Lavigne capture that any handful of people who upload here could have done probably while sitting on the toilet?

On the other hand if a person is living in their own space bubble

I think you'd have to be living in a space bubble to write the posts you've made.


and what they do is "great"

There are different definitions of great that all apply to me and what I do:
1. My upgrades are of importance and significance in the trading community. People enjoy and love them because people like myself search out for this stuff.
2. I do a great job
3. Im someone who has achieved a lot by working hard and putting a lot of effort into
finding low gen upgrades and producing them, therefore I am one of the greats in the entire trading and collecting community.

thusly they "deserve respect"

Correct

because, in their minds, they are "the only members of this community" providing material.

Correct.

But in reality, and mind you that I have been involved in the trading community for decades, that one person does not exist.

If you have been around for decades and all you have provided is some nonsense captures of stuff that any number of people can do, than you gotta be kidding me.
You also claim to work in the entertainment industry which I dont buy for a second and ill explain why. Results.
Again, I go by results and you have provided zero.
Twenty years in trading and you work in the entertainment industry and you have ZERO results to show for it. You should have some fantastic stuff that you have acquired from your sources within the entertainment industry, where are they? Until you provide that material, nothing you have to say is something id respect or take seriously and will be treated as me sweeping crumbs on the floor.

sabkisscrue
2010-03-19, 08:03 PM
this thread was meant to be about technical information -- not personal bs...anything personal posted by others seems to be the bed sabkiss/Deuce made for himself over the years at various other sites...

You have a right to your opinion but I didnt make a bed for myself. I didnt say anything that I regret or wasnt 100% correct and on point and factual.
If someone has a problem with anything ive said at any time, its their problem and I couldnt care less if they have a problem with it. But I agree with you they should keep their personal issues out of this thread. Or better yet just buy a punching bag.

M_M_H
2010-03-19, 08:04 PM
It's all about sharing.:thumbsup

Trouble starts when someone makes incessant demands

on the entire trading community, that everyone must go

out & find rare or uncirculated material, as if it were some

competition to prove you're worthy or something. Most people

have real lives & this is just a hobby. Some find rare shows,

some record shows, some download & never trade. Others

share via snail mail & never ask for anything in return.

By placing unrealistic demands on others, you end up

driving away people. Personally, if I'm going to send tapes

to someone to transfer, they sure as heck better be

someone who's likeable & not difficult to get along with,

regardless of how talented they are (or think they are).

I think the post by boxedart sums it up nicely.:horse:

sabkisscrue
2010-03-19, 08:09 PM
You just read someone who is a friend of mine and who I deal with regularly who says im easy to get along with, you've never dealt with me so you dont know what you are talking about and you certainly cant suggest that im difficult to deal with until you have dealt with me personally. Its not an incessant or unrealistic demand against the entire community, it was directed at lazy and brainless leechers (like your pals) who provide nothing and demand, demand, demand with the gimme, gimme, gimme attitude that they want something rare or uncirculated but arent willing to put in the hard work for it. Sorry, but real life is no excuse, anybody could have a real life and still seek this stuff out. The idea or notion that you have to devout your entire day and life to produce results is absurd and not true at all.

boxedart
2010-03-19, 10:39 PM
most tapers don't sit around posting about all the masters/upgrades we're sittin on...when i get around to it, i'll transfer and upload...simple as that


Exactly! I don't have a need to brag about what I have because, frankly, I have paid work I do that comes before my hobby. The other issue is much of the material I have I have not released for a reason, it's called my job and I like what I do so I tend to not want to jepordize it.

The Avril DVD that I authored at least one person feels anyone could have done "while sitting on the toilet", and that is a pretty wild comment coming from someone who has argued they don't do anything but make a new dub from an old source to a stand alone DVD recorder and send that DVD out to be "authored".

And I will take a moment to comment on one other comment:

Twenty years in trading and you work in the entertainment industry and you have ZERO results to show for it.

I have more than 20 years on the industry and have a lot to show for it. But for you, someone who seems to have nothing much going on in their life other than a hobby, I guess it must be very hard to comprehend how you could walk into into a store, turn on the TV or sit in a darkened theatre and see my work, and not yours.

sabkisscrue
2010-03-19, 10:55 PM
The Avril DVD that I authored at least one person feels anyone could have done "while sitting on the toilet", and that is a pretty wild comment coming from someone who has argued they don't do anything but make a new dub from an old source to a stand alone DVD recorder and send that DVD out to be "authored".

If thats what you wanna ignorantly believe than thats fine but it really doesnt matter to me what you think. I produce results when all you do is make unwarranted and unfounded accusations.


But for you, someone who seems to have nothing much going on in their life other than a hobby

Another unfounded assertion.

I guess it must be very hard to comprehend how you could walk into into a store, turn on the TV or sit in a darkened theatre and see my work, and not yours.

Many people see my work, but only some people here have seen your captures, captures that most anybody could do. After all they were tv broadcasts. A monkey could capture a tv show. As far as your years that you claim to be in the entertainment industry, surely you have made some contacts by now and you can release some stuff here. Dont give me that your job will be in jeopardy garbage. Theres a saying, put up or shut up!

Silver Stallion DVDs
2010-03-20, 12:29 AM
There are different definitions of great that all apply to me and what I do:

1. My upgrades are of importance and significance in the trading community. People enjoy and love them because people like myself search out for this stuff.

2. I do a great job.

3. Im someone who has achieved a lot by working hard and putting a lot of effort into finding low gen upgrades and producing them, therefore I am one of the greats in the entire trading and collecting community.

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx36.htm

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

SYMPTOMS: the essential feature of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (either in fantasy or actual behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy that begins by early adulthood and is present in a variety of situations and environments.

In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

* Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

* Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

* Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

* Requires excessive admiration

* Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

* Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

* Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

* Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

* Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

AAR.oner
2010-03-20, 12:53 PM
appears to be an accurate diagnosis Dr Stallion :lol: :clap:

M_M_H
2010-03-20, 12:59 PM
:hmm::hmm::hmm:

AAR.oner
2010-03-20, 02:06 PM
Many people see my work, but only some people here have seen your captures, captures that most anybody could do. After all they were tv broadcasts. A monkey could capture a tv show. As far as your years that you claim to be in the entertainment industry, surely you have made some contacts by now and you can release some stuff here. Dont give me that your job will be in jeopardy garbage. Theres a saying, put up or shut up!

1. you've uploaded 6 shows here in 4 years, i wouldn't call that "Many people seeing my work"...yer by no means a major contributor, hell thats not even a minor contributor, despite what you'd like to think

2. a monkey could transfer a VHS tape...yer pressing play on a deck and record on a standalone DVD recorder fer fucks sake! as you've admitted before, you know or do nothing in regards to color balance & correction, cleaning up the picture or audio, or any sort of post-production whatsoever -- so i wouldn't be callin anyone else a monkey

3. only someone who doesn't work in the industry would say "Don't give me that your job will be in jeopardy garbage." if its something thats work related, yes it would...i've got some amazing footage that a lot of folks would love, that if it got leaked it'd come strainght back to me and aside from losing any possible future business, would most likely face a lawsuit...would you risk your livelihood, your house, your family and kids, your business just so a handful of people could watch some live concert recording?

4. like you said, put up or shut up...all this talk of how great yer work is and the hundreds of masters and upgrades you have and all the bullshit posturing -- 6 shows u/led in 4 yrs :rolleyes: go fuckin tape a show, u/l 1 VHS transfer a week, whatever but heed yer own advice...PUT UP OR SHUT UP! otherwise go to some other site where people are stupid enough to buy into yer deluded, nonsensical drivel

sabkisscrue
2010-03-20, 03:12 PM
1. you've uploaded 6 shows here in 4 years, i wouldn't call that "Many people seeing my work"...yer by no means a major contributor, hell thats not even a minor contributor, despite what you'd like to think

Thats laughable because:

1. Ive uploaded over multiple sites and id say around 30 or more things ive transferred.

2. Because all you have uploaded from vhs tapes is a couple of what appears to be multi-generated Blind Melon. Ugh.

2. a monkey could transfer a VHS tape...

Well than why have you only uploaded two multi-generated Blind Melon? Ugh.

as you've admitted before, you know or do nothing in regards to color balance & correction, cleaning up the picture or audio, or any sort of post-production whatsoever

Admitted? Are you serious? I do all that actually. But you dont wanna believe that.

3. only someone who doesn't work in the industry would say "Don't give me that your job will be in jeopardy garbage." if its something thats work related, yes it would...i've got some amazing footage that a lot of folks would love, that if it got leaked it'd come strainght back to me and aside from losing any possible future business, would most likely face a lawsuit...would you risk your livelihood, your house, your family and kids, your business just so a handful of people could watch some live concert recording?

Total bullshit. Dont come on to a trading forum/torrent site and announce you have years in the entertainment industry then if you have nothing to show for it. Excuses excuses excuses.

[QUOTE=AAR.oner]4. like you said, put up or shut up...all this talk of how great yer work is and the hundreds of masters and upgrades you have and all the bullshit posturing -- 6 shows u/led in 4 yrs :rolleyes: go fuckin tape a show, u/l 1 VHS transfer a week, whatever but heed yer own advice...PUT UP OR SHUT UP! otherwise go to some other site where people are stupid enough to buy into yer deluded, nonsensical drivel

Theres only talk about how great it is, because you keep questioning it and denying it. You refuse to accept it.
You also refuse to accept that my friend or myself has access to hundreds of masters. Bottom line, if there wasnt a discussion about this, id have more time to upload stuff if I didnt have to respond to garbage like this. You can believe what you want, but all that matters is results and I provide them and will continue to regardless of anybodys opinion.

sabkisscrue
2010-03-20, 03:31 PM
A list of Metallica shows ive transferred and torrented or had torrented will be posted soon.

Thulani
2010-03-20, 03:45 PM
This thread is fucked up.

lordsmurf
2010-03-20, 03:56 PM
a 3 cam Ozzy from 96
Freaker's Ball, maybe? :clap:

As for your comment about someone being "the ONLY person able to provide something new to the community", that is highly doubtful. There is new material coming out all the time from all sorts of sources.Yes, but it has to start somewhere. Somebody -- one person -- takes initiative to make and share the videos with fellow fans. Some things are extremely rare, and the odds of multiple people taking that initiative is also (sadly) quite rare.

I would also dispute the "all the time" part -- I wish it did happen that way!

And I also think "just a hobby" is often used as a cop-out, an excuse for bad work. If this is a hobby, spend a few bucks on it. A couple hundred bucks on a hobby is very typical. If you're too cheap or too lazy, then you get the flack you deserve. It's really that easy.

...

In the end, the arguments are always between two type of fans:

The ones that really want the best material and will put forth effort to make that happen...
... and the ones that simply don't care to put forth any effort. (By no coincidence, it's this group that generally does it only to sell copies, to amass a bragging-rights "large collection" that he/she never watches, and tends to over-describe his/her crap as being much better quality than it really is. Sometimes even calling these folks "fans" is a bit of a stretch.)

The disagreement happens when the two interact, with the "yes effort" fan giving away some nice (either in trade or as $$) to the "no effort" fan, and feeling screwed with the garbage they get in return. It's even more aggravating when the "yes effort" fan knows the "no effort" crap could have looked/sounded much better. The only way to fight this is through education. And yes, as arguing, as needed, to bring the issue to light in the community.

I've seen this for 15+ years now. It's nothing new. :disbelief

AAR.oner
2010-03-20, 04:31 PM
Thats laughable because:

1. Ive uploaded over multiple sites and id say around 30 or more things ive transferred.

2. Because all you have uploaded from vhs tapes is a couple of what appears to be multi-generated Blind Melon. Ugh.



Well than why have you only uploaded two multi-generated Blind Melon? Ugh.
.
what the hell are you talkin about? you continue to prove what everyone who's known you from other boards say

look, i don't need to justify anything, but you seem to have strange perception of this hobby and those involved with it so i'll break it down for ya...i'm a TAPER, i tape and author shows that i filmed or audio recorded, as a hobby to promote the bands i like...its not hard to find all the shows i've taped and u/led here, the link is either just left of this post or above

i transferred the Melon tapes for a bunch of the Melon forum folks who wanted them transferred cuz they were either upgrades to what was circulating or uncirculated all together, so i did it as a favor...is that a problem for you? do they not deserve to be able to watch something by their favorite band?




which brings us to the point --yer comment that i bolded above comes off extremely immature, like a kid lashing out...it'd would be like me saying, "oh you only transfer vhs tapes? pfft...yer not a taper, so you don't matter"

and i hate to tell you, but 30 transfers even in the amateur collector world does not make one a god, or even a notable contributor really...i'm not knockin you, just sayin watch out for these delusions of grandeur -- it makes you look like an ass, or worse a complete nutter




Admitted? Are you serious? I do all that actually. But you dont wanna believe that..

okay, what programs are you using? hardware? exactly what post-production/restoration are you doing?

please fill us in, cuz according to every show you've u/led here, and the ones i've run across searching real quick, its nothing but a bunch of built-in "processors" on yer deck and camcorder passthroughs...no post production whatsoever...which then begs the question, if yer not lying here & you "do all that actually" -- are you lying on yer lineages?





Total bullshit. Dont come on to a trading forum/torrent site and announce you have years in the entertainment industry then if you have nothing to show for it. Excuses excuses excuses.
so yer sayin you'd want me to u/l a documentary, commercial, or film that i've worked on [most of which are not even music related, a few that are], all of which are copyrighted works & commercially available, just to prove to you or anyone else here i work in film? yer sayin you find it acceptable to torrent officially released material? cuz thats not acceptable here, or any of the other collector/trading communities



as people from other trading communities have pointed out here and in other threads [which you wanted deleted], yer blind arrogance and obvious lack of knowledge has created a real reputation for yerself...and comments like the above really further that...if yer fine with tht then cool -- just know that while you are patting yerself on the back everyone else is :laugh:




Theres only talk about how great it is, because you keep questioning it and denying it. You refuse to accept it.
You also refuse to accept that my friend or myself has access to hundreds of masters. Bottom line, if there wasnt a discussion about this, id have more time to upload stuff if I didnt have to respond to garbage like this. You can believe what you want, but all that matters is results and I provide them and will continue to regardless of anybodys opinion.

i'm not denying or refusing to accept anything...you've continued making grandiose claims with no substantial evidence ...and yer not the first, this is something thats become more and more commonplace thanks to the intardnet, people who need to feed their ego because they can't get any self-worth outta real life

as you said, PUT UP OR SHUT UP! and if this site is so bad like you keep alluding to, why are you still here?! take yer tapes somewhere else! hell, start yer own trading site


but please, once answering the post-production question that i do feel is extremely important -- quit posting in here with empty claims and start u/ling all those masters & upgrades that everyone just can't live without...cuz if ya don't yer just full of shit and we'll all keep posting back, pointing and laughing, cuz its funny to those of us who've been all thru this before

sabkisscrue
2010-03-20, 05:12 PM
look, i don't need to justify anything

Yes you certainly do, if you are gonna criticise or question anything I do, you are gonna damn be sure im gonna do the same to you.

i'm a TAPER

Dont make me laugh. I know real tapers, believe me. Dont even suggest you are a taper to me.


i transferred the Melon tapes for a bunch of the Melon forum folks who wanted them transferred cuz they were either upgrades to what was circulating or uncirculated all together, so i did it as a favor...is that a problem for you?

Yes it is a problem. I wouldnt waste my time with anything multigenerated.


yer comment that i bolded above comes off extremely immature, like a kid lashing out...


Believe me, you havent seen me lash out. If anything its immature to accuse me of lying or making empty claims.


and i hate to tell you, but 30 transfers even in the amateur collector world does not make one a god

Talk about laughable. You question every sentence, every word, everything I say and yet you are calling ME the God? You are losing your mind!

or even a semi-large contributor...i'm not knockin you, but watch out with these delusions of grandeur is all i'm saying

You have officially lost your mind.


...it makes you look like an ass, or worse a complete nutter

I think the best example of that is someone who lives in the US but talks like hes in England.

as people from other trading communities have pointed out here and in other threads [which you wanted deleted], yer blind arrogance and obvious lack of knowledge has created a real reputation for yerself...

I havent created any reputation for myself. There is gonna be a few bad apples in a bunch and of course their posts should be deleted. Why havent they been? Even you said it shouldnt get personal but lets face it, you have now made this personal with me and I suspect its because either you are jealous and/or you cant face reality.

you've continued making grandiose claims with no substantial evidence ...

Ive made no grandiose claims.

and yer not the first, this is something thats become more and more commonplace thanks to the intardnet, people who need to feed their ego because they can't get any self-worth outta real life

The best example of that is when you said you were a taper.
You must be joking.

as you said, PUT UP OR SHUT UP! and if this site is so bad like you keep alluding to, why are you still here?! take yer tapes somewhere else! hell, start yer own trading site

Ill upload whenever I feel like it and not because you want something to make unnecessary criticisms about.

but please, once answering the post-production question that i do feel is extremely important

We're not gonna get into minutia.

quit posting in here with empty claims and start u/ling all those masters & upgrades that everyone just can't live without...[/B]cuz if ya don't yer just full of shit and we'll all keep posting back, pointing and laughing, cuz its funny to those of us who've been all thru this before

Ill type like an english guy to you. "Are you mad, Guvnah?".

uninvited94
2010-03-20, 05:19 PM
Dont make me laugh. I know real tapers, believe me. Dont even suggest you are a taper to me.

:lol4:

:bs:

Thulani
2010-03-20, 06:09 PM
10 bucks and I can give you a taper license.

Silver Stallion DVDs
2010-03-20, 06:11 PM
I am one of the greats in the entire trading and collecting community.
Ive made no grandiose claims.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

SYMPTOMS: the essential feature of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (either in fantasy or actual behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy that begins by early adulthood and is present in a variety of situations and environments.

In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

* Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

* Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

* Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

* Requires excessive admiration

* Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

* Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

* Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

* Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

* Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.[/QUOTE]

Thulani
2010-03-20, 06:17 PM
Sorry Doc, but there's nothing about denying claims that he's a narcissistic person among those symptoms.

M_M_H
2010-03-20, 06:54 PM
:popcorn:

showtaper
2010-03-20, 07:17 PM
10 bucks and I can give you a taper license.

It's 50 bucks for an "old school" license, sonny.....

boxedart
2010-03-20, 07:32 PM
I wouldn't waste my time with anything multigenerated

I almost peed myself at that one. Considering this thread arose from a thread in which you posted a torrent for a DVD that was made, if people believe your lineage, from a second gen tape. (Which I still find doubtful) And if you want to go one step further your DVD is a dub as well - so that, going off your lineage, would make it a 3rd gen that people are viewing.


Oh - and as for the whole post production thing - do you even know what that means? Every time you have "discussed" what you do you say all you do is hit play on one source and hit record on another. You then say you send that stand alone burned DVD out to someone else for "authoring". If anyone is remotely close to doing any post on your work it is the person who is doing the authoring.

AAR.oner
2010-03-20, 09:16 PM
:lol4: :rolleyes: wow, alrighty then...i see all attempts at logic, reasonable discussion and reality are cimpletely futile here

i guess good luck in yer transfers & contributions then...i am definitely outmatched by such greatnesss, guvnah! :thumbsup

sabkisscrue
2010-03-20, 09:26 PM
I almost peed myself at that one. Considering this thread arose from a thread in which you posted a torrent for a DVD that was made, if people believe your lineage, from a second gen tape. (Which I still find doubtful) And if you want to go one step further your DVD is a dub as well - so that, going off your lineage, would make it a 3rd gen that people are viewing.

If it makes you comfortable to think that you downloaded a 3rd gen, that is fine but you didnt. I honestly think you must be mentally ill and im not kidding around.


Oh - and as for the whole post production thing - do you even know what that means? Every time you have "discussed" what you do you say all you do is hit play on one source and hit record on another. You then say you send that stand alone burned DVD out to someone else for "authoring". If anyone is remotely close to doing any post on your work it is the person who is doing the authoring.


This is what this thread has come down to, a couple of peoples mentally ill obsession with the minutia as well as every single word or sentence I have to say. You two can carry on and on and on and on for as long as you like, its not gonna change what I do, its not gonna affect what I do, and its not gonna dictate what I do. I will continue to do what I do because I know I am the best at it.

sabkisscrue
2010-03-20, 09:52 PM
As promised, this is simply a short list and by no means all the Metallica upgrades ive been responsible for:

1986.11.09 Anaheim, CA, USA 1 DVD AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/Hellawaits77
1988.06.04 Miami, FL, USA 1 DVD AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/Norbino
1988.11.30 Oklahoma City, OK, USA 2 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/Hellawaits77
1989.02.15 West Palm Beach, FL, USA 2 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/Hellawaits77
1989.03.04 Pittsburgh, PA, USA 2 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1989.03.12 Philadelphia, PA, USA 2 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/Norbino
1989.03.15 Troy, NY, USA 2 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrure
1989.04.04 Halifax, NS, Canada 2 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1989.04.18 Peoria, IL, USA 2 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/Norbino
1989.07.29 Allentown, PA, USA 2 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1990.06.29 Toronto, ON, Canada 2 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/Metfan91
1991.11.01 Muskegon, MI, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1991.11.03 Auburn Hills, MI, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/Hellonearthinc
1991.12.19 Uniondale, NY, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1991.12.20 Uniondale, NY, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1992.01.06 Inglewood, CA, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 2nd Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1992.01.07 Inglewood, CA, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 2nd Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1992.02.13 Inglewood, CA, USA 4 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/Metfan91
1992.02.29 Providence, RI, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1992.03.15 Jacksonville, FL, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 2nd Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1992.03.16 Orlando Arena, FL, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/Hellonearthinc
1992.04.04 East Rutherford, NJ, USA 4 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1992.04.08 East Rutherford, NJ, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1992.04.12 Binghamton, NY, USA 4 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1992.04.16 Hartford, CT, USA 4 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1992.05.10 Daly City, CA, USA 4 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1992.11.24 Dortmund, Germany 3 DVDs AUD PAL 2nd Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1993.02.15 Amherst, MA, USA 4 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1993.02.19 St. Petersburg, FL, USA 4 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777

Silver Stallion DVDs
2010-03-20, 09:55 PM
I will continue to do what I do because I know I am the best at it.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

SYMPTOMS: the essential feature of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (either in fantasy or actual behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy that begins by early adulthood and is present in a variety of situations and environments.

In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

* Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

* Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

* Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

* Requires excessive admiration

* Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

* Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

* Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

* Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

* Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

sabkisscrue
2010-03-20, 09:57 PM
1994.06.05 Syracuse, NY, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1994.06.08 Wantagh, NY, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC Master Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1994.06.15 Mechanicsburg, PA, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC Master Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1994.06.17 Middletown, NY, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/metallifre...
1994.06.17 Middletown, NY, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 2nd Sabkisscrue/metallifre...
1994.06.22 Clarkston, MI, USA 2 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1996.06.04 San Jose, CA, USA 1 DVD AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1996.06.04 Sacramento, CA, USA 1 DVD AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1996.07.27 Chandler, AZ, USA 2 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/Norbino
1996.12.19 Fresno, CA, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1996.12.29 Sacramento, CA, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/Damageinc777
1996.12.31 San Jose, CA, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/Helloneart...
1997.01.05 Phoenix, AZ, USA 2 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1997.01.29 Minneapolis, MN, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1997.02.28 Uniondale, NY, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC Master Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1997.03.01 Worcester, MA, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC Master Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1997.03.08 Philadelphia, PA, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC Master Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1997.03.10 New York, NY, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st abkisscrue/DamageInc777
1997.03.11 New York, NY, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st abkisscrue/DamageInc777
1997.04.01 East Rutherford, NJ, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC Master Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1997.04.04 Hartford, CT, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC Master Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1997.04.04 Hartford, CT, USA 2 DVDs AUD NTSC Master Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1997.04.05 Providence, RI, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC Master Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1997.04.05 Providence, RI, USA 2 DVDs AUD NTSC Master Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1997.04.06 Albany, NY, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC Master Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1998.11.24 New York, NY, USA 2 DVDs PRO NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
1999.11.23 New York, NY, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
2000.01.07 Minneapolis, MN, USA 3 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/Norbino
2000.01.09 Minneapolis, MN, USA 2 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/Invaders
2000.07.04 Baltimore, MD, USA 3 DVDs PRO NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/DamageInc777
2000.07.20 East Rutherford, NJ, USA 2 DVDs AUD NTSC 1st Sabkisscrue/Hellawaits77

This is Metallica alone and not a complete list and I was wrong, much more than 30 (twice that). My bad.

sabkisscrue
2010-03-20, 10:10 PM
A few Kiss upgrades ive either acquired or transferred, mainly transferred:

KISS 1-26-76 Detroit, MI
KISS 9-1-77 Houston, TX
KISS 9-2-77 Houston, TX
KISS 7-8-79 Largo, MD
KISS 3-16-86 Des Moines, IA
KISS 12-19-97 New Haven, CT
KISS 1-17-88 Saginaw, MI
KISS 1-26-88 Poughkeepsie, NY
KISS 2-12-88 Hollywood, FL
KISS 8-2-90 Orlando, FL
KISS 8-3-90 Miami, FL
KISS 8-4-90 Tampa, FL
KISS 8-17-90 Jackson, MS
KISS 8-18-90 Shreveport, LA
KISS 8-19-90 Biloxi, MS
KISS 8-21-90 Houston, TX
KISS 8-22-90 San Antonio, TX
KISS 8-24-90 Little Rock, AR
KISS 8-25-90 Oklahoma City, OK
KISS 10-13-90 London, Ontario, Canada
KISS 10-27-90 New Haven, CT
KISS 10-1-92 Bethlehem, PA
KISS 10-2-92 Binghampton, NY
KISS 10-11-92 Uniondale, NY
KISS 10-29-92 Daytona Beach, FL
KISS 10-31-92 Miami, FL
KISS 11-22-92 Toledo, OH
KISS 12-16-92 Sacramento, CA
KISS 12-16-92 Sacramento, CA
KISS 12-19-92 San Bernadino, CA
KISS 7-30-94 Nashville, TN
KISS 9-1-94 Santiago, Chile
KISS 9-3-94 Buenos Aries, Argentina
KISS 10-21-94 Phoenix, AZ
KISS 1-28-95 Nagoya, Japan
KISS 6-17-95 Burbank, CA
KISS 6-17-95 Burbank, CA
KISS 6-24-95 Las Vegas, NV
KISS 6-15-96 Irvine, CA
KISS 6-30-96 Louisville, Kentucky
KISS 7-2-96 St. Louis, MO
KISS 7-3-96 Kansas City, MO
KISS 7-5-96 Dallas, TX
KISS 7-6-96 Houston, TX
KISS 7-25-96 New York City, NY
KISS 8-21-96 Phoenix, AZ
KISS 8-23-96 Los Angeles, CA
KISS 8-24-96 Inglewood, CA
KISS 8-25-96 Los Angeles, CA
KISS 9-22-96 Orlando, FL
KISS 10-1-96 Atlanta, GA
KISS 10-8-96 Philly, PA
KISS 10-21-96 Chicago, IL
KISS 10-31-96 Irvine, CA
KISS 11-1-96 Irvine, CA
KISS 11-25-96 London, England
KISS 12-7-96 Gothenburg, Sweden
KISS 12-18-96 Milano, Italy
KISS 12-31-96 East Rutherford, NJ
KISS 4-5-97 Columbus, GA
KISS 4-20-97 Cedar Rapids, IA
KISS 10-31-98 Los Angeles, CA
KISS 11-18-98 University Park, PA
KISS 11-21-98 Philly, PA
KISS 11-25-98 Hartford, CT
KISS 11-27-98 Long Island, NY
KISS 12-29-98 Chicago, IL
KISS 3-15-99 Milan, Italy
KISS 3-12-00 Tucson, AZ
KISS 3-19-00 San Diego, CA
KISS 3-21-00 Bakersfield, CA
KISS 3-23-00 Oakland, CA
KISS 5-2-00 Charleston, WV
KISS 5-9-00 Toledo, OH
KISS 5-11-00 Chicago, IL
KISS 6-28-00 East Rutherford, NJ
KISS 7-22-00 George, WA (The Gorge)
KISS 9-15-00 Binghampton, NY

sabkisscrue
2010-03-20, 10:19 PM
Even after all that, theres still just as many or double/twice that many in other groups/bands that ive transferred or been responsible for. Creating a list would take time.

Kissvision compilations 74 to 83
Kiss 11-30-75 Largo, MD/Houston 76 partial
Kiss 11-8-90 Hershey, PA
Kiss 5-5-92 Philly, PA
Kiss 10-1-92 Bethlehem, PA diff version
Kiss 10-2-92 Binghamton, NY diff version
Kiss 6-25-95 Phoenix, AZ
Kiss 7-25-95 Toronto, Can
Kiss 8-24-96 Inglewood diff version
Kiss 9-17-96 Miami, FL
Kiss 9-20-96 St. Petersburgh, FL
Kiss 10-11-96 Philly, PA
Kiss 12-31-99 Vancouver, BC
Kiss 3-18-00 Anaheim, CA
Kiss 3-18-01 Nagoya, Japan

showtaper
2010-03-20, 10:36 PM
Even after all that, theres still just as many or double/twice that many in other groups/bands that ive transferred or been responsible for. Creating a list would take time.

The list isn't engraved on your statue at the Transfer Hall of Fame??

You're a lot like the energizer bunny. Obnoxious, but a hell of a lot of fun to wind up and play with.

Almost forgot:


I wouldn't waste my time with anything multigenerated


I didn't see many masters on those lists and no lineage on the Kiss......

sabkisscrue
2010-03-20, 10:45 PM
For the Jethro Tull Tard:

KISS 1-26-76 Detroit, MI 2nd
KISS 9-1-77 Houston, TX 1st/2nd
KISS 9-2-77 Houston, TX 1st/2nd
KISS 7-8-79 Largo, MD 1st/2nd
KISS 3-16-86 Des Moines, IA 1st
KISS 12-19-87 New Haven, CT master
KISS 1-17-88 Saginaw, MI 1st
KISS 1-26-88 Poughkeepsie, NY 1st
KISS 2-12-88 Hollywood, FL 1st
KISS 8-2-90 Orlando, FL 1st
KISS 8-3-90 Miami, FL 1st
KISS 8-4-90 Tampa, FL 1st
KISS 8-17-90 Jackson, MS 1st
KISS 8-18-90 Shreveport, LA 1st
KISS 8-19-90 Biloxi, MS 1st
KISS 8-21-90 Houston, TX 1st
KISS 8-22-90 San Antonio, TX 1st
KISS 8-24-90 Little Rock, AR 1st
KISS 8-25-90 Oklahoma City, OK 1st
KISS 10-13-90 London, Ontario, Canada 1st
KISS 10-27-90 New Haven, CT 1st
KISS 10-1-92 Bethlehem, PA 1st
KISS 10-2-92 Binghampton, NY 1st
KISS 10-11-92 Uniondale, NY low
KISS 10-29-92 Daytona Beach, FL 1st
KISS 10-31-92 Miami, FL 1st
KISS 11-22-92 Toledo, OH 1st
KISS 12-16-92 Sacramento, CA 1st
KISS 12-19-92 San Bernadino, CA master
KISS 12-19-92 San Bernadino, CA 1st
KISS 7-30-94 Nashville, TN low
KISS 9-1-94 Santiago, Chile master
KISS 9-3-94 Buenos Aries, Argentina low
KISS 10-21-94 Phoenix, AZ 1st
KISS 1-28-95 Nagoya, Japan 1st/2nd
KISS 6-17-95 Burbank, CA 1st
KISS 6-17-95 Burbank, CA 1st
KISS 6-24-95 Las Vegas, NV 1st
KISS 6-15-96 Irvine, CA 1st
KISS 6-30-96 Louisville, Kentucky 1st
KISS 7-2-96 St. Louis, MO 1st
KISS 7-3-96 Kansas City, MO 1st
KISS 7-5-96 Dallas, TX 1st
KISS 7-6-96 Houston, TX 1st
KISS 7-25-96 New York City, NY master
KISS 8-21-96 Phoenix, AZ 1st
KISS 8-23-96 Los Angeles, CA 1st
KISS 8-24-96 Inglewood, CA 1st
KISS 8-24-96 Inglewood, CA master diff angle
KISS 8-25-96 Los Angeles, CA master
KISS 8-27-96 San Jose master (forgot to add)
KISS 9-17-96 Miami, FL 1st
KISS 9-20-96 St. Petersburgh, FL 1st
KISS 9-22-96 Orlando, FL 1st
KISS 10-1-96 Atlanta, GA 1st/2nd
KISS 10-8-96 Philly, PA master
KISS 10-11-96 Philly, PA 1st
KISS 10-21-96 Chicago, IL 1st
KISS 10-31-96 Irvine, CA master
KISS 11-1-96 Irvine, CA 1st
KISS 11-25-96 London, England 1st
KISS 12-7-96 Gothenburg, Sweden 1st
KISS 12-18-96 Milano, Italy 1st
KISS 12-31-96 East Rutherford, NJ 1st/2nd
KISS 4-5-97 Columbus, GA 2nd/3rd
KISS 4-20-97 Cedar Rapids, IA 1st
KISS 10-31-98 Los Angeles, CA 1st
KISS 11-18-98 University Park, PA 1st
KISS 11-21-98 Philly, PA master
KISS 11-25-98 Hartford, CT 1st
KISS 11-27-98 Long Island, NY 1st
KISS 12-29-98 Chicago, IL 1st
KISS 3-15-99 Milan, Italy 1st
KISS 3-12-00 Tucson, AZ 1st
KISS 3-14-00 Las Cruces, NM 1st
KISS 3-19-00 San Diego, CA 1st 2cam/1cam master
KISS 3-21-00 Bakersfield, CA master
KISS 3-23-00 Oakland, CA master
KISS 5-2-00 Charleston, WV 1st
KISS 5-9-00 Toledo, OH 1st
KISS 5-11-00 Chicago, IL 1st
KISS 6-28-00 East Rutherford, NJ 1st
KISS 7-22-00 George, WA (The Gorge) 1st
KISS 9-15-00 Binghampton, NY 1st
Kissvision compilations 74 to 83 1st
Kiss 11-30-75 Largo, MD/Houston 76 partial 1st/2nd
Kiss 11-8-90 Hershey, PA 1st
Kiss 5-5-92 Philly, PA 1st
Kiss 10-1-92 Bethlehem, PA diff version low
Kiss 10-2-92 Binghamton, NY diff version low
Kiss 6-25-95 Phoenix, AZ 1st
Kiss 7-25-95 Toronto, Can 1st
Kiss 9-17-96 Miami, FL 1st
Kiss 9-20-96 St. Petersburgh, FL 1st
Kiss 12-31-99 Vancouver, BC 1st
Kiss 3-18-00 Anaheim, CA 1st
Kiss 3-18-01 Nagoya, Japan 1st/2nd

showtaper
2010-03-20, 11:04 PM
That's a lot of generated shit. If you can find a 1st gen, how hard can it be
for a guy with your skills to get the master??

I gotta admit, you sure can push buttons on that old DVD recorder........

M_M_H
2010-03-20, 11:17 PM
The Choleric Personality Type

Your personality weaknesses

* You can be bossy and impatient.

* You are quick tempered, canít relax and can be too impetuous.

* You enjoy controversy and arguments and wonít give up when losing.

* You can come on too strong, are inflexible and uncomplimentary.

* You dislike tears and emotions and are generally unsympathetic.

* You tend to over dominate, are too busy for your family and will often give
answers too quickly.

* You are impatient with poor performance and wonít let children relax if you have any. You are likely to send them in to depression.

* You have little tolerance for mistakes, however, you donít analyze details yourself, are bored by trivia and can often make rash decisions.

* You can be rude and tactless and often manipulate people.

* You are demanding of others and believe that the end justifies the means.

* Work may become the driving force in your life and you demand loyalty in the ranks.

* You tend to use people and dominate others.

* You make decisions on other peopleís behalf and you know everything.

* You can do everything better, are too independent and are overly possessive of friends and mate.

* You canít say your sorry and, although you may often be right, you can become unpopular.

:hmm:

Sound familiar? Accurate isn't it ? :D


http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/KISS-ARMY/message/646

sabkisscrue
2010-03-20, 11:38 PM
Not a complete list.

AC/DC 2-5-81 Tokyo low
AC/DC 9-17+18-83Detroit, MI low
AC/DC 1-15-85 Rock in Rio, Brazil 1st
AC/DC 9-10-85 Pittsburgh, PA 1st
AC/DC 8-10-88 Hollywood, FL 1st
AC/DC 11-9-90 Toronto 1st
AC/DC 6-13-91 Oakland, CA 1st
AC/DC 9-17-00 San Diego, CA master
Ace Frehley ?-??-88/89 London, Eng low
Ace Frehley 3-13-93 Orlando, FL (Acevision) master
Ace Frehley 3-4-90 Philly, PA 1st
Ace Frehley 8-2-92 New York, NY 1st
Ace Frehley 6-16-93 San Juan Capistrano, CA 1st
Ace Frehley 93 New York, NY 1st
Aerosmith 4-17-88 Hollywood, FL 1st
Alice Cooper 12-31-89 Toronto 1st
Alice Cooper 7-23-91 (with Judas Priest) Lakeland, FL 1st
Alice Cooper 8-27-91 KLOS mini concert 1st gen vhs/ABC Live in Concert '91 SVHS 1st
Alice Cooper 10-4-00 Pittsburgh, PA 1st
Alice In Chains 8-22-89 Seattle, WA Vogue 1st
Alice In Chains 9-22-89 Seattle, WA Central Tavern 1st
Alice In Chains 12-15-92 Hollywood, CA master
Alice in Chains 7-3-96 Kansas City, MO 1st
Anthrax 12-11-87 NYC, NY 1st
Anthrax 5-9-90 Osaka, Japan best copy 2nd
Anthrax 7-1-91 Hampton, VA 1st
Anthrax 5-14-93 Tijuana, Mexico 1st
Anthrax 5-5-94 Houston, TX 1st
Anthrax 12-15-95 Houston, TX 1st
Anthrax ?-??-95 San Diego, CA 1st
Anthrax 6-20-96 Ft Meyers, FL master
Anthrax 6-21-96 Orlando, FL/6-18-96 Tampa, FL master
Antrophy 1-21-89 Houston, TX 8mm 1st
Badlands 9-9-89 Mountain View, CA low gen
Bango Tango 12-18-91 Tampa, FL master
Billy Idol 9-28-90 Orlando, FL (Video Shoot) 1st
Billy Idol 9-28-90 Orlando, FL/9-29-90 Miami, FL 1st
Billy Idol 9-30-90 Tampa, FL 1st
Black Crowes 6-4-90 Landgraaf, Holland Pink Pop low
Black Crowes 10-11-90 Hampton, VA 1st
Black Crowes 10-20-90 St. Petersburg, FL 1st
Black Crowes 6-6-91 San Jose, CA 1st
Black Crowes 3-19-95 New York, NY 1st
Black Crowes 8-4-95 Noblesville, IN 2nd
Bonham 11-3-89 St. Petersburg, FL master
Bon Jovi 7-23-86 Montreal low
Bon Jovi 9-12-89 Phoenix, AZ 2nd gen Bon Jovi 1-8-91 Osaka, Japan 2nd/3rd gen
Bon Jovi 2-18-93 Hartford, CT 1st
Bon Jovi 4-20-01 Anaheim, CA mini dv masters
Bon Jovi 5-13-01 Washington D.C. DV clones
Bon Jovi 3-7-03 Philly, PA DV clones
Boston 12-7-88 Hamilton, Canada 2nd
David Bowie 4-29-90 Miami, FL 1st
David Bowie 10-18-97 St. Paul, MN 1st
Bridge School Benefit: (Bruce, Petty, Henley, CSNY) 10-13-86 Pro 1st/2nd
Cannibal Corpse 8-11-92 Orange Park, FL master
Cannibal Corpse 6-18-96 Tampa, FL master
Cannibal Corpse 3-31-02 Cleveland, OH 1st
Carcass 10-5-90 Reseda, CA master
Carcass 10-11-90 Houston, TX 1st
CCR 1-31-70 Oakland, CA low
Cheap Trick 8-25-88 Bristol, CT 1st
Cheap Trick 7-23-88 Detroit, MI 1st
Cheap Trick 8-1-88 Cleveland, OH 1st
Cheap Trick 9-4-88 Miami Beach, FL 2nd
Cheap Trick 9-26-88 Universal City, CA master or 1st
Cheap Trick 2-7-89 Halifax 1st or low gen vhs/Skid Row 5-28-89 Detroit
Cheap Trick 3-18-89 Daytona Beach, FL MTV Spring Break master
Cheap Trick 5-26-89 Berea, OH low gen vhs/Gnr 5-14-88 Halifax 1st
Cheap Trick 2-?-90 Santiago, Chile low
Cheap Trick 11-18-90 Auburn Hills, MI 2nd
Cheap Trick 11-23-90 Toronto 1st gen vhs 1dvdr xp mode
Cheap Trick 11-29-90 East Rutherford, NJ 1st or 2nd
Cheap Trick ?-??-93 Omaha, NE 1st or very good 2nd
Cheap Trick 1-2-94 San Diego, CA 1st
Cheap Trick 6-14-94 Danbury, CT low
Cheap Trick 12-28-94 San Diego, CA 1st
Cheap Trick 3-21-97 Tempe, AZ 1st /3-12-97 NYC, NY Hard Rock Live master
Cheap Trick 3-27-97 San Juan Capistrano, CA hi8 master
Cheap Trick 6-13-97 Toronto, Can 1st
Cheap Trick 10-12-97 Minn, MN 1st gen
Cheap Trick 10-18-97 Auburn Hills, MI low
Cheap Trick 10-25-97 Worcester, MA 1st
Cheap Trick 11-9-97 Houston, TX opening for Crue 1st
Cheap Trick 11-11-97 Mankato, MN 1st gen
Cheap Trick 11-22-97 Des Moines, IA 1st gen
Cheap Trick 2-27-98 Trickfest2 w/sdck Merriville, IN 1st
Cheap Trick 2-27-98 Trickfest2 w/sdck Merriville, IN All Request show 1st
Cheap Trick 8-1-98 San Jose, CA master
Cheap Trick 10-22-98 Philly, PA 1st
Cheap Trick 10-23-98 Philly, PA 1st gen
Cheap Trick 10-24-98 Philly, PA 1st gen
Cheap Trick 7-24-99 Columbus, OH low
Cheap Trick 12-31-99 Orlando, FL PPV master
+ HBO Reverb master
Cheap Trick 9-14-00 Pomona, CA DV master
Cheap Trick 2-17-01 Hallandale, FL 1st
Cinderella 9-18-88 Hollywood, FL 1st
Cinderella 2-16-89 Tokyo, Japan 1st gen vhs/Vixen 12-7-88 Buffalo 1st gen
Cinderella 3-28-89 OK City, OK svhs low
Cinderella 6-13-91 Tampa, FL 1st gen
Cold Gin 8-22-92 San Diego, CA 1st
Sheryl Crow 9-10-97 Mesa, AZ 1st
Sheryl Crow 7-27-02 Irvine, CA 1st
Damn Yankees 10-26-90 Binghamton, NY 1st/2nd
Damn Yankees 2-7-91 Chattanooga, TN 1st
Damn Yankees 3-30-91 Bethlehem, PA 2nd
Damn Yankees ?-?-91 or 93 Raleigh, NC low
Damn Yankees ?-?-?? Osaka, Japan 1dvdr flex mode
Danzig 5-21-93 NYC 1st
Danzig 10-31-94 Irvine, CA 1st
Dark Angel 5-3-89 Miami, FL 1st
Dark Angel 5-5-89 Orlando, FL 8mm master
Dark Angel 5-6-89 St Pete, FL 8mm master
Dark Angel 12-15-89 St Pete, FL 8mm master/Overkill 3-17-87 Bochum, West Germany mid
Death 1-4-89 Houston, TX 1st
Death 5-5-89 Orlando, FL 8mm master
Death 5-6-89 St Pete, FL 8mm master (includes Kreator 9-27-89 Cleveland)
Death 4-7-90 Houston, TX 1st
Death 4-19-90 Orlando, FL 8mm master
Death 10-5-90 Reseda, CA master

sabkisscrue
2010-03-20, 11:46 PM
Death 10-7-90 Tempe, AZ 1st
Death 10-11-90 Houston, TX 1st
Death 10-12-90 San Antonio, TX 1st
Death Angel 5-4-89 Melbourne, FL 8mm master
Deep Purple 3-4-95 Sunrise, FL 1st
Deep Purple 11-26-96 NYC, NY 1st
Deep Purple 1-28-98 Anaheim, HOB Jap broadcast 1st/2nd
Def Lep 12-29-87 Hollywood, FL 1st
Def Lep Roadie Documentary 87/88
Def Lep 9-21-02 Boston, MA DV clone
Dio 10-5-90 Lakeland, FL 1st
Dio 8-15-94 Palo Alto, CA 1st
Dio 2-10-97 Palo Alto, CA 1st
Dio 6-15-97 Philly, PA 1st
Dio 6-28-98 Hamilton, Can 1st
DLR 7-3-94 San Diego, CA 1st
DLR 6-25-02 Universal City, CA 1st
Dokken Beat Club 81 low/1st
Dokken Detroit 12/87 1st
Dokken 6-4-88 Miami, FL 1st
Dokken 6-22-88 Akron, OH 1st
Don Dokken 12-7-90 NYC, NY 2nd
Dream Theater 2-23-93 Miami, FL 1st /Manson/Spooky Kids 8-11-91 Davie, FL 1st/2nd
Dream Theater 6-5-93 SF, CA 1st
Dream Theater 12-1-94 SF, CA 1st
Dream Theater 11-22-97 NYC, NY 1st
Dream Theater 2-19-00 Pittsburg, PA 2nd
Dream Theater 9-6-02 Baltimore, MD DV clones
Enuff Z' Nuff 11-4-89 St Pete, FL/Sick of it All 2-28-90 Melbourne, FL 8mm masters
Exodus/Bodycount 6-29-92 Hollywood, CA 8mm master
Extreme 7-3-95 Baltimore, MD 1st
Faith no More 3-11-90 Champaign, IL 1st
Faith no More 3-17-90 Brooklyn, NY 1st/Motley Aussie 90 TV/Maiden Japan 90 Documentary and Interview
Faith no More 2-13-90 Eindhoven, Netherlands low
Faith no More 8-10-90 Melbourne, Aus low
Faith no More 9-25-90 Hampton, VA 1st
Faith no More 9-29-90 Miami, FL 1st
Faith no More 9-30-90 Tampa, FL 1st
Faith no More 8-19-92 San Fran, CA 1st
Fear Factory 4-6-93 Houston, TX 1st
Fear Factory 5-16-93 Jacksonville, FL 8mm master
Fight 1-8-94 Miami, FL 1st
Fight 7-6-95 San Fran, CA 1st
Fleetwood Mac 10-17-90 Gainesville, FL 1st
Fleetwood Mac 10-24-90 Miami, FL 1st
Flotsam & Jetsam 9-29-88 Houston, TX 8mm 1st
Peter Frampton 8-8-92 San Jose, CA 1st
Frehley's Comet 9-6-87 Clarkston, MI 1st
Frehley's Comet 9-12-87 NYC 1st
Great White 3-25-88 Hollywood, FL 1st
Great White 7-11-88 Toronto 1st vhs/Poison 5-18-89 Toronto 1st
Great White 12-31-89 Toronto 1st
Greenday 11-10-94 Chicago, IL MTV Concert master
Guns 12-7-88 Tokyo, Japan 2nd
Guns 12-15-88 Melbourne, Aus pro low
Guns MTV 1991 Blown Up Tour Special + multiple compilation mostly master footage
Guns Paris 92 master
Gwar 3-31-89 Houston, TX 1st
Heart 8-22-82 Santo Domingo, Domnincan Republic
Heart 12-19-87 Hollywood, FL 1st
Heart 6-8-90 Miami, FL 1st
Heart 6-9-90 Orlando, FL 1st
Heart 9-5-90 Philly, PA 1st/9-4-95 Seattle, WA Ann w/Hendrix Band 1st
HSAS 11-14&15-84 San Jose, CA MTV Concert 1st
Don Henley ?-??-89 Universal City, CA 2nd
Don Henley 4-27-90 Uniondale, NY 2nd
Don Henley ?-??-91 Sebastian, FL 2cam 1st
Don Henley 10-21-91 NYC, NY 1st
House of Lords ?-?-?? Unknown show/Faster Pussycat ?-?-90 Philly,
House of Lords 3-23-91 Sunrise, FL 1st
Iron Maiden 8-5-88 Hollywood, FL 1st
Iron Maiden 7-1-92 Daly City, CA 1st
Iron Maiden 5-9-93 Milan, Italy 1st
Iron Maiden 6-28-98 Hamilton 1st
Iron Maiden 7-16-99 New York, NY 1st
Iron Maiden/Halford/Ryche 8-30-00 Denver, CO 2nd
Janes Addiction 10-11-88 Houston, TX 1st
Janes Addiction 5-6-89 Santa Barbara, CA 1st
Janes Addiction 12-15-90 San Fran, CA low
Janes Addiction 2-18-91 Orlando, FL 1st
Janes Addiction 2-19-91 St. Petersburg, FL 1st
Janes Addiction 5-12-91 Toledo, OH 1st
Janes Addiction 8-20-91 Orlando, FL 1st
Janes Addiction 12-4-97 Mesa, AZ 1st
Journey 7-9-78 Chicago, IL PBS Soundstage 1st
Journey Going Platnium with pro footage of Houston 80 1st
Journey 10-10-80 Osaka, Japan low
Journey 10-16-98 Ft. Wayne, IN 1st gen vhs 2dvds xp mode

showtaper
2010-03-21, 12:00 AM
Keep going, you know you have to........

lordsmurf
2010-03-21, 12:03 AM
Don't stop now. I want to see L, M, O and T. :)

sabkisscrue
2010-03-21, 12:48 AM
Judas Priest/Megadeth/Testament 11-18-90 Houston, TX 1st
Judas Priest 12-8-90 New Haven, CT 1st
Judas Priest 12-15-90 Uniondale, NY 1st
Judas Priest 12-19-90 Lakeland, FL 1st
Judas Priest 7-23-91 (with Alice Cooper) Lakeland, FL 1st
Judas Priest 2-8-98 Pittsburg, PA 2nd
Killing Machine 10-24-92 San Diego, CA 1st
Kingdom Come 6-22-88 Akron, OH 1st gen
Kingdom Come 7-3-88 Dallas, TX 1st
King Diamond 7-26-86 Detroit, MI low
King Diamond 8-3-87 San Fran 1st or low
King Diamond 9-29-88 Houston, TX 1st
King Diamond 11-2-89 Flint, MI low gen /King Diamond 7-26-86 Detroit low
Kings X 2-21-91 Miami, FL 1st
Kings X 3-14-91 San Jose, CA 1st
Kix 10-11-89 Tokyo pro low
Korn 6-13-94 Hollywood, CA 1st
Korn 4-18-96 Hollywood, CA 1st
Korn 3-6-97 Mesa, AZ 1st
Korn 6-20-02 Wilkes Barre, PA DV master
Korn 11-9-02 Long Beach, CA DV masters
Lenny Kravitz 2-18-92 Boston, MA 1st
Kreator 9-27-89 Cleveland, OH 1st gen
Kreator 5-3-91 St Pete, FL 8mm master
Kreator 5-4-91 Orlando, FL 8mm master/Dark Angel 12-13-89 Orlando, FL
Kreator 7-23-93 Atlanta, GA 8mm master
Kreator 7-26-93 Tampa, FL 8mm master
Kreator 4-15-96 Orlando, FL 8mm master
Kreator 4-17-96 Atlanta, GA 8mm master
Kreator 10-11-02 Tampa, FL 8mm master 2dvdr xp mode (includes St P. 91)
LA Guns 9-14-88 Houston, TX 1st
LA Guns 6-13-91 Oakland, CA 1st
LA Guns ?-??-93 San Diego, CA 1st
Lita Ford 10-15-88 Miami, FL 1st
Lita Ford 10-15-88 Miami, FL 1st gen vhs/Ryche 1-23-91 Rock in Rio low
Living Colour 3-5-91 Sunrise, FL 1st
Living Colour 3-14-91 San Jose, CA 1st
Love/Hate 10-5-90 Lakeland, FL 1st gen
Lynyrd Skynyrd 10-4-91 Miami, FL 1st
Marilyn Manson/Spooky Kids 8-11-91 Davie, FL 1st/2nd gen vhs/Dream Theater 2-23-93 Miami, FL 1st gen
Marilyn Manson 10-26-91 Boca Raton, FL 2nd/3rd
Marilyn Manson 8-1-92 Davie, FL 1st/2nd /4-17-93 Ft Laud 1st/2nd
Marilyn Manson 11-22-96 Santiago, Chile low
Marilyn Manson 1-25-97 Santa Monica, CA hi8 master
McCartney 11-11-02 Tokyo 1st
Megadeth 10-28-86 Detroit, MI svhs low
Megadeth 4-1-88 Miami, FL 1st
Megadeth/Testament 10-22-90 Toronto 1st + AC/DC 11-11-90 NJ + Arsenio clips
Megadeth/Testament/Priest 11-18-90 Houston, TX 1st
Megadeth 12-8-90 New Haven, CT 8mm 1st
Megadeth Osaka 91 2nd
Megadeth 12-19-90 Lakeland, FL 1st
Megadeth 12-20-90 Miami, FL 1st
Megadeth 9-12-92 Reggio Emilia, Italy master
Megadeth 6-13-97 Mesa, AZ/1-23-91 Rock in Rio 30mins 1st
Megadeth 3-11-98 St Paul, MN 1st
Mercyful Fate 10-9-99 Philly, PA 1st
Metal Church 5-2-89 Orlando, FL 8mm master
Metallica 3-18-83 SF, CA Low
Metallica 4-28-86 Uniondale, NY 2nd
Metallica 7-3-88 Dallas, TX 1st
Metallica 2-10-89 Lakeland, FL 8mm master
Metallica 2-14-89 Ft Meyers, FL 8mm master
Metallica 4-4-89 Halifax, Canada 2nd diff angle
Metallica 10-12-91 Oakland, CA 1st
Metallica 3-12-92 Chattanooga, TN 1st
Metallica 3-14-92 Miami, FL 1st
Metallica 3-15-92 Jacksonville, FL 1st
Metallica 5-9-92 San Fran, CA 1st
Metallica 12-21-96 Inglewood, CA hi8master
Metallica 7-17-98 East Rutherford, NJ 1st
Moody Blues 8-25-91 Tampa, FL 8mm master
Motley Crue Compilations low
Motley Crue 7-12-87 Des Moines, IA 1st
Motley Crue 10-15-87 Tacoma, WA 1st/2nd
Motley Crue 1-22-90 St. Petersburg, FL 8mm master
Motley Crue 5-8-90 Osaka, Japan 1st/2nd
Motley Crue 7-1-90 Middletown, NY 1st
Motley Crue 4-5-97 Zephyrhills, FL 1st
Motley Crue 6-19-97 Toronto 1st
Motley Crue 11-2-97 Orlando, FL 1st
Motley Crue 12-10-97 Phoenix, AZ 1st
Motley Crue 10-30-98 NYC, NY 1st
Motley Crue 12-10-98 Clearwater, FL 1st
Motley Crue 9-5-99 Tampa, FL 1st
Mudhoney 7-7-91 Seattle, WA 1st
MSG 10-23-83 London 1st
MSG 3-15-90 Daytona, FL 8mm master
MSG 5-19-90 Dallas, TX 1st/2nd /Toronto Much Music unplugged 1st
MSG 3-25-92 Anaheim, CA master
MSG 12-6-96 Chicago, IL master
Napalm Death 5-6-90 St Petersburg, FL 8mm master
Napalm Death 5-11-90 Sao Paulo, Brazil low
Napalm Death 4-20-91 Reseda, CA 1st
Napalm Death 5-??-92 Las Vegas, NV 1st
Stevie Nicks US Fest 83 low
Stevie Nicks 8-25-89 Wantagh, NY 2nd
Stevie Nicks 10-23-89 LA, CA 1st or 2nd
Steve Nicks Storytellers master
Night Ranger 12-13-83 Tokyo, Japan commercial release
Nine Inch Nails 6-26-90 Dallas, TX low
Nirvana 10-1-89 Denver, CO 1st
Nirvana 2-12-90 Sacramento, CA 1st/2nd
Nirvana 2-16-90 Long Beach, CA 1st/2nd
Nuclear Assault 7-28-88 Peekskill, NY 1st/2nd
Nuclear Assault 8-14-88 Houston, TX 1st
Nuclear Assault 4-15-90 Tampa, FL 1st (includes Sep 8-11-91 Orlando master)
Nuclear Assault 4-17-90 Orlando, FL 8mm master
Obituary 6-24-89 Tampa, FL 8mm master
Obituary 12-23-89 Hallandale, FL 1st
Obituary 11-15-90 West Palm Beach, FL 8mm master
Obituary 11-16-90 Miami Beach, FL 1st
Obituary 12-12-90 Mc Allen, TX 1st gen /GNR Lakeland 87 Backstage Interview 1st
Obituary 12-13-90 Ft. Worth, TX 1st
Obituary 8-11-92 Orange Park, FL 8mm master
Obituary 5-16-93 Jacksonville, FL 8mm master
Overkill 7-28-88 Peekskill, NY 1st/2nd
Overkill 8-14-88 Houston, TX 1st 8mm (includes Testament)
Ozzfest 2000 PPV master vhs
Ozzy Osbourne Compilation (tv clips) low/1st
Ozzy Osbourne 1-11-85 Rock in Rio, Brazil low
Ozzy Osbourne 1-31-89 St Louis, MO 1st or low
Ozzy Osbourne 3-2-89 Tokyo, Japan 1st
Ozzy Osbourne 6-4-89 Philly, PA master
Ozzy Osbourne 1-5-92 Sunrise, FL 1st
Ozzy Osbourne 6-11-92 Seattle, WA low
Ozzy Osbourne 6-13-92 Daly City, CA 1st
Ozzy Osbourne 9-8-95 Santiago, Chile 2nd
Ozzy Osbourne 9-28-96 Hamilton, Canada 1st
Page/Coverdale 12-20-93 Osaka, Japan 2nd
Page/Crowes 10-13-99 NYC. NY multicam 1st
Page/Crowes 10-14-99 NYC. NY multicam 1st
Pantera 6-8-91 NYC, NY low
Pantera 6-11-91 Philly, PA low
Pantera 3-10-92 San Jose, CA 1st
Pantera 6-27-92 Hollywood, CA 8mm master
Pantera 3-31-94 Austin, TX + XXX Backstage footage mid gen
Pantera 4-29-94 San Fran, CA 1st
Pantera 7-15-94 San Jose, CA 1st
Pantera ?-?-94 San Diego, CA 1st
Pantera 11-30-96 Kansas City 1st
Pantera 9-24-97 St Paul, MN 1st
Pantera 2-9-97 Mesa, AZ 1st
Pat Benatar 83 US Fest low
Pat Benatar 2-21-86 Montreal 1st/2nd
Pat Benatar 10-14-88 Miami, FL 1st
Pat Benatar 10-16-88 Tampa, FL 8mm master
Paul Stanley TV compilation master/low gen vhs 1dvdr xp mode
Pearl Jam 8-23-91 Seattle, WA daylight show 1st
Pearl Jam 4-10-92 Philly, PA 1st
Pearl Jam 4-12-92 NYC, NY 1st
Pearl Jam 4-23-92 Miami, FL 1st
Pearl Jam 5-13-92 Hollywood, CA 8mm master
Pearl Jam 6-17-92 Milan, Italy pro 2nd
Pearl Jam 11-1-92 Mtn. View, CA Bridge Benefit screen shot/10-2-94 Mtn. View, CA Bridge Benefit pro 1st
Pearl Jam 10-30-93 San Jose, CA 1st Dale
Pearl Jam 11-6-95 San Diego, CA ask
Pearl Jam 9-14-96 Toronto, Can 1st
Pearl Jam 7-13-98 Inglewood, CA 1st
Pestilence 9-14-90 Detroit, MI 8mm master or 1st
Pestilence 10-11-90 Houston, TX 1st
Pestilence 12-1-91 Milwaukee, WI 1st
Tom Petty 6-29-89 Universal City, CA 1st/2nd/Rush DKRC 76 or 77
Tom Petty 10-8-91 Uniondale, NY low
Tom Petty 7-14-02 Hershey, PA minidv masters
Tom Petty 10-22-91 Miami, FL 8mm master
Pink Floyd 11-1-87 Miami, FL 1st gen
Tom Petty 7-14-02 Hershey, PA Mini dv masters
Poison 4-13-88 Toronto 1st/Tesla 6-11-88 Toronto 1st
Poison 5-18-89 Toronto, CA 1st/Great White 7-11-88 Toronto 1st
Poison 11-19-90 NYC, NY 2nd
Poison 3-24-91 Orlando, FL 1st(incomplete)
Poison 7-11-99 Camden, NJ 1st
Queensryche 8-5-84 Tokyo, Japan master
Queensryche 11-21-84 Philly low
Queensryche 10-26-88 Cologne, Germany 1st
Queensryche 11-30-88 OK City, OK 2nd gen best copy
Queensryche 3-13-89 Buffalo, NY 2nd best copy
Queensryche 4-7-89 Toronto 1st
Queensryche 11-20-90 Ichtegen, Belgium + 6-7-91 Rochester Pro footage low
Queensryche 2-1-91 Osaka 2nd
Queensryche 9-18-91 Dortmund, Germ low
Queensryche 10-24-91 Toronto, Canada 2nd
Queensryche 11-30-91 Daly City, CA 2nd
Queensryche 5-20-95 Inglewood, CA 8mm masters
Queensryche 5-21-95 San Diego, CA 1st
Ramones 4-26-90 Tampa, FL master
Rainbow 10-9-95 Dusseldorf, Germany 1st/2nd
Rainbow 2-26-97 Toronto, Can 1st
Ratt 1-12-89 Tokyo, Japan 1st
Ratt 12-18-90 Tampa, FL 8mm master
Ratt 7-11-99 Camden, NJ 1st
Robert Plant 5-10-88 Toronto, Can 2nd
Robert Plant 10-20-90 St. Petersburg, FL 1st
Robert Plant New Orleans, LA 1st
Rod Stewart 11-24-88 Toronto, Canada 1st
Rod Stewart 2-14-92 Los Angeles, CA PPV master
Rod Stewart/Paul McCartney MTV Unplugged 1992 master
RIP Party (members of Gnr, Metallica, and Skid Row) 11-9-90 Hollywood, CA 2nd
Rob Zombie 10-26-98 Philly, PA 1st
Rob Zombie 12-18-01 Buffalo, NY 1st
Rolling Stones Cocksucker blues 1st
Rolling Stones 12-18-81 Hampton, VA master
Rolling Stones 10-31-94 Oakland, CA 1st
Miami 94 master
Rush 2-16-88 Hollywood, FL 1st
Rush 3-7-88 Toronto 2nd
Rush 4-27-90 Philly, PA 1st
Rush 10-26-91 Rochester, NY 1st
Rush 1-29-92 Oakland, CA 1st
Rush 1-22-94 Pensacola, FL 1st
Rush 2-3-94 Inglewood, CA 1st
Rush 2-8-94 Fresno, CA 1st
Rush 11-26-96 Inglewood, CA Hi8 Masters
Rush 11-27-96 Inglewood, CA 1st
Sabbath and Dio 80's TV performances, Dokken Beat Club 81 low/1st
Sabbath DKRC/Kiss Midnight Special low gen vhs/Paul Lynde/Bon Jovi Japan 83 tv show 1st
Sabbath 10-21-89 Nagoya, Japan 1st
Sabbath 6-30-92 Rio, Brazil low
Sabbath 7-24-92 Sunrise, FL 1st
Sabbath 9-12-92 Reggio Emilia, Italy master
Sabbath 11-13-92 Oakland, CA Best copy out there 1st
Sabbath/Halford 11-15-92 Costa Mesa, CA 1st
Sabbath/Ozzy 11-15-92 Costa Mesa, CA 1st
Sabbath/Ozzy 11-15-92 Costa Mesa, CA MTV Feed/Interviews 2nd
Sabbath 6-15-97 East Rutherford, NJ multicam 1st
Sabbath 6-28-97 Las Vegas, NV 1st
Sabbath 1-6-99 Inglewood, CA 2nd
Sabbath 1-11-99 Portland, OR 1st
Sabbath 2-18-99 Philly, PA 1st
Sabbath 6-12-99 Pittsburgh, PA 2nd/3rd
Sabbath 6-8-01 Chicago, IL multicam 1st
Sacred Reich 1-21-89 Houston, TX 8mm 1st + Interview + Antrophy
Sammy hagar 5-20-91 Cabo San Lucas, Mexico low
Sammy Hagar/Los Tres Gusanos 10-19-95 Cabo San Lucas, Mexico Master
Sammy hagar 8-29-97 Mesa, AZ 1st
Sammy Hagar 10-31-97 Phoenix, AZ 1st
Sammy Hagar 6-25-02 Universal City, CA 1st
Savatage 3-27-88 Philly, PA 1st
Scorpions late 70s promo clips/Cheap Trick Don Kirschner/Promo clip/Count down
Scorpions 6-4-88 Miami, FL 1st
Scorpions 7-3-88 Dallas, TX 1st
Scorpions 5-26-91 Miami, FL 1st
Scorpions 3-5-94 San Jose, CA 1st
Scorpions 7-7-99 Camden, NJ 1st
Sepultura 9-27-89 Berlin, Germany 1st gen (or low)
Sepultura 6-4-90 Dynamo, Holland
1st best copy
Sepultura 11-5-89 Philly, PA 1st
Sepultura 11-13-89 Cleveland, OH 1st
Sepultura 11-17-89 Kalamazoo, MI 1st
Sepultura 11-18-89 Chicago, IL 1st
Sepultura 1989-1991 Brazil TV Comp 1st
Sepultura 5-11-90 Sao Paulo, Brazil low
Sepultura 11-17-90 Tampa, FL 8mm master
Sepultura 11-18-90 Orlando, FL 8mm master
Sepultura 11-19-90 Melbourne, FL 8mm master
Sepultura 12-1-90 Brooklyn, NY Lamour' 2nd
Sepultura 12-13-90 Ft. Worth, TX 1st
Sepultura 12-14-90 San Antonio, TX 1st
Sepultura 12-17-90 El Paso, TX 1st gen
Sepultura 5-18-91 Berlin, Germany low
Sepultura 6-3-91 Salvador, BR low
Sepultura 8-9-91 Miami, FL 8mm master
Sepultura 8-11-91 Orlando, FL 8mm master
Sepultura 8-13-91 Jacksonville, FL 8mm master
Sepultura 12-23-92 San Fran, CA 1st
Sepultura 12-23-93 Hollywood, CA 8mm master
Sepultura 10-26-96 Devore, CA hi8 master
Silverchair Hollywood 96 Palladium/Santa Monica Pier 95 1st
Skid Row 4-11-89 OK City, OK 1st
Skid Row 7-24-89 Kawasaki, Japan pro low
Skid Row 12-28-89 New Haven, CT 1st/2nd
Skid Row 5-13-90 Melbourne low
Skid Row 6-13-91 Philly, PA (openers Gnr) 2nd
Skid Row 10-7-91 Osaka, Japan 2nd
Skid Row 1-20-92 Orlando, FL 1st
Skid Row 3-10-92 San Jose, CA 1st
Skid Row Japan 89-91 TV special 1st
Slaughter 8-2-90 Orlando, FL 1st
Slaughter 8-3-90 Miami, FL 1st
Slaughter 8-25-90 OK City, OK 1st
Slayer 11-3-86 SF, CA low
Slayer 12-6-86 NYC, NY 1st (includes Pestilence 12-1-91 Milw)
Slayer 8-24-88 Cleveland, OH 1st or low /Overkill 6-15-87 1st or low
Slayer (incomplete Motorhead) 11-27-88 Houston, TX 8mm 1st
Slayer 12-13-90 Osaka, Japan 2nd gen vhs 2dvdrs xp mode
Slayer 2-2-91 Cleveland, OH 1st or low
Slayer 2-11-91 Troy, NY 1st/2nd
Slayer 2-23-91 Miami, FL 1st
Slayer 2-24-91 Miami, FL 1st
Slayer 7-1-91 Hampton, VA 1st
Slayer 8-27-94 Sao Paulo, Brazil 1st or really good 2nd
Slayer 9-3-94 Buenos Aires, Arg pro shot low
Slayer 1-18-95 Tucson, AZ 1st
Slayer 3-12-95 Mesa, AZ 1st
Soundgarden 1-29-92 Hollywood, CA master
Soundgarden 7-27-96 Phoenix, AZ 1st gen
Steve Perry 12-16-94 Los Angeles, CA 8mm master
Stevie Ray Vaughn 8-30-87 Des Moines, IA 1st/2nd
Stevie Ray Vaughn 11-12-89 Troy, NY 1st/2nd
STP 11-25-96 New York, NY 1st
Stryper Isaiah 53:5 Live in Japan official vhs
Stryper 9-10-88 Orlando, FL 1st /Old Twisted Sister TV show 1 dvd-r xp mode
Styx ?-??-?? Young Musician Show SVHS low
Styx 7-19-97 Phoenix, AZ 1st
Suicidal Tendencies 10-9-88 Houston, TX 1st
Suicidal Tendencies 7-16-91 Virginia opening for Ryche 1st
Ted Nugent Compilation low
Ted Nugent 6-23-95 Raleigh, NC low
Temple of the Dog 11-13-90 Seattle, WA Off Ramp Cafe 1st
Tesla 6-11-88 Toronto 1st/Poison 4-13-88 Toronto 1st
Tesla 5-13-89 Detroit, MI 1st
Tesla 10-24-89 Troy, NY 1st/2nd
Tesla 7-1-90 Middletown, NY 1st
Tesla 12-30-95 San Jose, CA 1st

showtaper
2010-03-21, 01:05 AM
Almost there.....come on.....you can do it.......

sabkisscrue
2010-03-21, 01:05 AM
Testament 8-14-88 Houston, TX 1st 8mm (includes Overkill)
Testament 12-13-88 Cleveland, OH 1st
Testament/Aniihilator 11-18-89 Allentown, PA 1st
Testament 10-28-89 Royal Oak, MI 1st low
Testament 11-24-89 Orlando, FL 8mm master
Testament/Savatage 4-4-90 Allentown, PA 1st
Testament/Megadeth 10-22-90 Toronto 1st+ AC/DC 11-11-90 NJ + Arsenio clips
Testament/Megadeth/Priest 11-18-90 Houston, TX 1st
Testament 11-27-92 Hollywood, CA 8mm master
Testament 6-2-93 Los Angeles, CA 8mm master
Testament 6-16-95 Buenos Aires, Argentina 1st
The Storm 8-14-92 San Jose, CA 1st
Tool 5-2-92 Philly, PA 1st
Tool 5-3-92 NYC, NY 1st
Tool 12-31-95 Oakland, CA 1st Dale
Tool 7-15-02 Inglewood, CA 1st
Trouble 6-17-90 Philly, PA 1st
Pete Townsend 4-30-96 SF 1st
U2 4-30-87 Detroit, MI 1st
U2 2-29-92 Lakeland, FL 1st
U2 4-28-01 Phoenix, AZ 1st
Union 3-16-00 San Diego, CA 1st/2nd
UFO 8-2-86 Oakland, CA low
UFO 1-20-98 Chemnitz, Germany 2nd
UFO 1-23-98 Lichtenfels, Germany 2nd
UFO 1-24-98 Colossal, Germany 2nd
UFO 2-21-98 London, England 1st
UFO 2-21-98 London, England (2nd angle)2nd
US Fest Heavy Metal Day master best copy
Venom 6-1-84 London, Eng Hammersmith Odeon official vhs
Venom Second Coming master vhs
VH Compilation discs various generations
VH DLR Compilation low
VH DLR Compilation Part 2 (one clip)/Sammy VH Compilation including Unleashed low/master
VH 1-16-83 Caracas, Venezuela low gen vhs pro
VH US Fest '83 (cut in YRGM) 1st gen
VH 5-26-86 Des Moines, IA 1st
VH 6-4-88 Miami, FL 1st
VH 6-22-88 Akron, OH 1st
VH 7-3-88 Dallas, TX 1st
VH 3-19-91 LA, CA Satellite Radio TV Interview
VH Dallas 91 Press Conference/Def Lep Jap TV 92 Interview 1dvdr XP mode
VH 12-4-91 Dallas, TX Best ever quality performance portion 1st
VH 12-4-91 Dallas, TX Long version uncirculated 86 mins with press conference
VH 1-31-92 Houston, TX 1st
VH 2-15-92 Huntsville, AL 1st
VH 5-21-92 Cabo San Lucas, Mexico low
VH 5150 Studios 93
VH 8-20-93 Mountain View, CA 1st
VH 1-30-95 Milan, Italy 1st
VH 3-11-95 Pensacola, FL Pro 1st
VH 4-2-95 San Diego, CA 1st
VH 5-7-95 Albany, NY 1st
VH 5-13-95 Oakland, CA master
VH 5-14-95 San Jose, CA 1st
Violence 8-14-88 Houston, TX 8mm master(includes Nuclear Assault)
Vixen 12-7-88 Buffalo 1st /Cinderella 2-16-89 Tokyo, Japan 1st
Voivod 10-12-88 Houston, TX 1st
Voivod 2-4-90 Ft Lauderdale 8mm master
WASP 9-3-92 Columbus, OH 1st
WASP 2-4-97 Milan, Italy 2nd
WASP 8-29-98 Secacus, NJ 1st
Wallflowers 6-17-96 Lawrence, KS 1st
Wallflowers 11-26-97 Fairfax, VA 1st
Warrant 87' Hollywood, CA Gazzari's pro shot 1st
Warrant/Pantera/Testament 9-12-92 Reggio Emilia, Italy master
Whitesnake 3-25-88 Hollywood, FL 1st
Whitesnake 3-24-90 Miami, FL 1st
Whitesnake 7-7-94 Milan, Italy 1st
White Lion 8-10-88/4-17-88 Hollywood, FL 1st
White Zombie 6-27-92 Hollywood, CA 8mm master
White Zombie 12-10-93 Hollywood, CA 8mm master
White Zombie ?-?-93 Ventura, CA 1st
White Zombie 6-28-95 San Jose, CA 1st
White Zombie 12-14-95 Fairfax, VA 2nd/8-19-95 Cologne, Germany low
Winger ?-??-90 Tokyo low
Winger 8-17-90 Jackson, MS 1st
Winger 8-22-90 San Antonio, TX 1st
Winger 8-25-90 OK City, OK 1st
Yngwie Malmsteen 3-22-98 London low
Y&T ?-??-86 San Fran, CA Civic official vhs
Y&T 8-29-87 Kansas City, KS low /8-27-82 Reading UK Fest mid
Y&T 8-15-92 San Jose, CA 1st
Y&T 1-16-98 Santa Cruz, CA 1st
ZZ Top 4-11-91 Lakeland, FL 1st
ZZ Top 9-19-97 Phoenix, AZ 1st

...to name a few

showtaper
2010-03-21, 07:25 AM
That's it......that's it......OOOOOH.........yeah..........

Was it good for you?














Almost forgot, thanks for saving all these bands from slipping into obscurity.
You're the best (but you already know that, don't you.......)!!!!

AAR.oner
2010-03-21, 10:24 AM
so yesterday it was 30, now its all those?! damn, not bad puliin off a hundred transfers in one afternoon...and bootleggin official releases as well huh? you have definitely proved yerself one of the pillars of the ROIO world

:rolleyes: :lol:



but as much fun as this is for me and the others [and hopefully you as well guvnah], lets bring it back to the technical aspects:

you conveniently failed to answer the question about the post-production/restoration work you said yer doing to these transfers, or as you call it "minutia" [first time i've ever heard video restoration referred to as "minor or minute"]...its been brought to my attention that the VBT mods are very much interested in knowing yer answer as well...so do you plan to elaborate on said minutiae?

boxedart
2010-03-21, 11:35 AM
If it makes you comfortable to think that you downloaded a 3rd gen, that is fine but you didnt. I honestly think you must be mentally ill and im not kidding around.

Master Reels (3/4 inch tape) > Master VHS > 1st gen 8mm >JVC DRM-100 Dvd Recorder

1. Master Reels
2. Dubed to VHS
3. Dubed to 8mm
4. Dubbed to DVD via a stand alone DVD burner

You two can carry on and on and on and on for as long as you like, its not gonna change what I do, its not gonna affect what I do, and its not gonna dictate what I do.

So if Lordsmurf said to you that post production takes a lot more work than what you are doing you would tell them the same thing?

Post houses must be rushing to have meetings on how to change their business model because of you and your stature in the industry.


I will continue to do what I do because I know I am the best at it.

Many people have responsed to you about comments like that for at least a decade, probably longer, so rather than say anything let me use your own words to layout the possible responses you would give if I did:
there is for some reason a huge lack of respect for me and what I do and the reason that is because of misconceptions.
Understand that it doesnt matter to me what a group of people on a message board think of me, I know what I do and I know that its great and thats all that matters to me.
I deserve respect because im one of the only members of this community who is stepping up and providing upgrades to this community (of what I deem needs upgrading)
I know what I do and I know I do it better than most.
So, because I dont menu the dvds I make and I have other people do them, that somehow means what? Thats a pretty lame insult, if thats what you were going for.
You are a pathetic ass kissing cock sucker! LMMFAO!!!!!!!
Aren't you done mouthing off with your stupid bullshit? Shut the fuck up!!!
You are an even more a fucking moron then I previously thought!
Well, I dont know how you got that impression and it doesnt matter how you did, but you are very wrong
Clearly you have misinterpreted what I said
Well, you have a right to your opinion as incognizant as it is.

This is unfortunately very misguided and based on the misconceptions that others have of me.
Once again your opinion is based on incognizance, misguidedness, and misconceptions.
Well, since we're being frank here, you are an incompetent moron.
These are your misconceptions. You are simply wrong, as well as others who share the same opinion.
By the tone in your post its as if you believe I still have something to prove...

Whats the difference in line tbc compared to full frame tbc? would you not need an external tbc with a professional unit like the ag-7650? Interested in other peoples opinions. thanks.Maybe someone can explain this please. Whats the difference with a line tbc as opposed to a full frame tbc (with the ag-1980)? I've read a lot of posts here about dvd recorders on here and which one record the best quality and have the best functions. So i've decided on either new or refurbished models: JVC DR-M10 TOSHIBA D-R5 Both have a firewire. The Jvc does record lpcm audio in xp mode though. Which do you think is the best?Can you elaborate more on the ire error with the jvc dvd recorder? I have noticed a slightly lighter picture. Has it been discussed how to get around that? Which stabilizer do you use with your JVC recorder and what kind of results do you have?
Nobody told me this is how you do it.

It also requires a great deal of nerve and incognizance on your part to even begin to question what it is I do...
BTW, I should let you know. I am HUGE, as far as everything is concerned. I am well known, I know every collector/filmer/taper/trader that matters and I deal in the best.
What is a matter of fact is im not arrogant and that notion is based on misconceptions, misguidedness, and incognizance.

And as a final thought:

BANNED: deuce8pro. Unfortunately, the disruptive poster quota of the KissFAQ has been exceeded.

boxedart
2010-03-21, 12:28 PM
Yes, but it has to start somewhere. Somebody -- one person -- takes initiative to make and share the videos with fellow fans. Some things are extremely rare, and the odds of multiple people taking that initiative is also (sadly) quite rare.

I would also dispute the "all the time" part -- I wish it did happen that way!

And I also think "just a hobby" is often used as a cop-out, an excuse for bad work. If this is a hobby, spend a few bucks on it. A couple hundred bucks on a hobby is very typical. If you're too cheap or too lazy, then you get the flack you deserve. It's really that easy.

I have heard you are in the industry - if so than you should be well aware of the amount of "unreleased" or "unseen" material out there. And there are many people whos sole job it is to seek out that material for projects. Now if you are soley speaking about "fan" videos than that number, in 2010, is massive. If you are in the industry you know that the internet has all but destroyed the indy film markets and it has put a dent into the larger studio markets as well. This is not because one person is doing it, there are people doing it worldwide - it is not at all "quite rare" in this day and age. Look at the reunion tour of Van Halen - that was pretty well documented on both video and audio by many more fans than just one.

"just a hobby" is not at all a cop out. Some people spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on their hobbies, some spend very little money but a lot of time. If want the "best" than be prepared to spend lots of money - but for most people they do not need the "best" for their hobby. Spending a few hundred bucks these days is not unusual but the quality of what you can get for a few hundred bucks is a massive change from what you could get for a few hundred bucks 20 - 30 years ago.

M_M_H
2010-03-21, 01:00 PM
BREAKING NEWS!!!

Sabkisscrue/Deuce8pro has been banned from vhtrading.com

:ignore:

lordsmurf
2010-03-21, 01:33 PM
1. Master Reels
2. Dubed to VHS
3. Dubed to 8mm
4. Dubbed to DVD via a stand alone DVD burner

This workflow is somewhat confusing. I can understand reels being converted to a broadcast master of some sort (D1, Betacam, S-VHS), or even a "sneaked out master" onto VHS by a fan that works there. That makes sense.

But the 8mm step? :wtf:

That specific standalone DVD recorder is well known for its ability to clean up grain and chroma noise (fix "color noise"), so that's a good choice for both home/hobby and small business use.

So if Lordsmurf said to you that post production takes a lot more work than what you are doing you would tell them the same thing?
It ranges from hours to days to weeks to months to years -- it really depends on the goals of the project and the source available.

And there are many people whos sole job it is to seek out that material for projects.
It's gotten sloppy and half-assed in the past decade. With the recession, it's gotten even worse.

the internet has all but destroyed the indy film markets and it has put a dent into the larger studio markets as well
While true, I don't think this really relates to the ongoing conversation. That's another topic entirely.

there are people doing it worldwide - it is not at all "quite rare" in this day and age.
For something done in the past 5-10 years, sure, I'll agree footage is more easily available. But much of that is commercially released immediately afterward, too! And cheap cameras have caused a lot more amateur (and pro, too!) recordings in recent years.

But I don't care about recent years. I want the stuff I grew up with. Give me 80s and 90s. That older stuff is harder to get, and harder to work with.

"just a hobby" is not at all a cop out. --- If want the "best" than be prepared to spend lots of money - but for most people they do not need the "best" for their hobby
I would counter that "best" is another cop-out, a backup excuse for "just a hobby".

Making better-than-crap quality from average sources does not require "lots of money", it just takes some effort -- effort to learn what is good and what is not, and time to learn proper settings in the hardware/software (as opposed to "auto" or default settings).

Buying a VCR from Walmart/Best Buy (or using the POS you bought in 1995), and hooking it up directly into the cheapest DVD recorder available from Walmart/Best Buy is sloppy and makes crap. To top it off, you'll get people that make 6-hour mode dubs, complete with tracking errors and audio buzz/hiss, using cheap Memorex blanks. This is then re-encoded even sloppier, and then barfed online into a torrent or onto Youtube.

An hour of reading would have avoided that whole mess. :nono:

There should also be a degree of patience. Do one video, and then learn how to do better next time. Sadly, most people try to churn out everything rapid-fire (again, often for some kind of monetary gain or bragging rights), and their 100th video is just as awful as the 1st. That was unnecessary, too!

There needs to be middle ground between lazy crap, and that "best" pro work. And yes, that does require adopting some pro methods and equipment. Even something as simple as a $200-300 JVC/Panasonic VCR will cause massive quality increases. Still not pro, no -- but a heck of a lot better in the quality department.

sabkisscrue
2010-03-21, 03:22 PM
Few more grandiose claims (and I havent even listed upgrades ive gotten on dvd):

AC/DC 7-12-91 New York City, NY 1st
AC/DC 8-20-00 Philly, PA master
AC/DC 5-9-01 Albany, NY 1st
Aerosmith 6-24-77 Houston, TX 2nd
Aerosmith 1-25-80 Largo, MD 2nd
Aerosmith 4-22-90 Miami, FL 1st
Aerosmith 4-25-90 Orlando, FL 1st
Aerosmith 7-27-90 Norfolk, VA 1st
Aerosmith 7-31-93 Costa Mesa, CA master
Aerosmith 8-1-93 San Diego, CA 1st
Aerosmith 8-4-93 Inglewood, CA master
Aerosmith 9-11-93 East Rutherford, NJ 1st
Aerosmith 9-17-93 Philly, PA master
Aerosmith 9-17-93 Philly, PA master 2
Aerosmith 9-22-93 Philly, PA master
Aerosmith 1-5-94 Binghampton, NY 1st
Aerosmith 12-6-94 Chicago, IL 1st
Aerosmith 12-18-94 Albany, NY 1st
Aerosmith 5-18-97 Nurburgring, Germany master
Aerosmith 10-20-97 Concord, CA 1st
Aerosmith 1-15-98 Philly, PA master
Aerosmith 12-17-98 Philly, PA master
Aerosmith 1-4-99 Pittsburgh, PA 1st
Aerosmith 12-31-99 Osaka, Japan master best version
Aerosmith 6-6/6-17-01 Hartford, CT/LA, CA 1st
Aerosmith 7-2-01 Toronto, Canada 1st
Aerosmith San Diego and & Inglewood 02 both master
Aerosmith 8-17-02 Hershey, PA master
Aerosmith 9-7-02 Camden, NJ 1st
Aerosmith 12-21-02 Washington D.C. dv clones
Aerosmith 11-11-06 San Bernadino, CA dv clones
Alice Cooper 9-25-99 Hamilton, CAN 1st
Alice Cooper 9-1-00 Elmira, NY 1st
Black Sabbath/Dio 10-14-92 NY 1st
Black Sabbath 1-12-99 Seattle, WA 1st
Black Sabbath 2-5-99 Meadowlands, NJ 1st
Bon Jovi 12-1-95 Johannesburg, South 2nd
Bon Jovi 6-29-00 Asbury Park, NJ 1st
Bon Jovi 11-10-00 Philly, PA master
Bon Jovi 4-20-01 Anaheim, CA master
Bon Jovi 5-13-01 Washington DC clones
Bon Jovi 3-3-03 Albany, NY 1st
Def Leppard 8-17-99 Springfield, IL 1st
Def Leppard 1-10-00 Kelowna,B.C., Canada 1st
Fleetwood Mac 11-26-97 Albany, NY 1st
Fleetwood Mac 5-21-03 Albany, NY 1st
Guns N' Roses 12-16-91 Philly, PA master
Guns N' Roses 12-17-91 Philly, PA master
Journey 7-31-81 Tokyo, Japan 1st or low
Judas Priest 4-12-91 Osaka, Japan
Kiss: all 1sts
1976 Rehearsals
St. Louis, MO (June 28th or June 29th of 1976, date unknown)
The Originals I 1974-1976 84mins
The Originals II 1976-1978 84mins
TV Compilation Dynasty/1979 87mins
TV Compilation Unmasked/1980 91mins
TV Compilation The Elder/81-82 63mins
TV Compilation Promo Tour/1982 87mins
TV Compilation Creatures/1983 100mins
TV Compilation Revenge/Alive III 1993 120mins
TV Compilation Kiss My Ass/Convention 1994-1995 160mins
TV Compilation Reunion Tour 1996 127mins
TV Compilation Psycho Circus 1998 87mins
TV Compilation Psycho Circus/Detroit Rock City 1999 100mins
Live Pieces: The Summit, Houston, TX 8-13-
KISS 12-16-85 New York, NY 1st/2nd
KISS 6-17-90 Middletown, NY 1st
KISS 2-6-97 Sydney, Austrailia low
KISS 11-12-98 Boston, MA 1st
Motley Crue 11-21-89 Kansas City, MO 2nd
Motley Crue 10-24-97 Philly, PA master
Motley Crue 10-25-97 Worcester, MA 1st
Motley Crue 12-2-97 San Fransico, CA 1st
Motley Crue 11-07-98 Philly, PA master
Motley Crue 2-15-99 Seattle, WA 1st
Motley Crue 6-29-99 Columbia, MD 1st
Motley Crue 7-7-99 Camden, NJ 1st
Ozzy Osbourne 2-5-92 Toledo, OH 1st
Ozzy Osbourne 9-15-96 Philly, PA master
Ozzy Osbourne 12-23-01 East Rutherford, NJ 1st
Page/Plant 11-19-98 Milano, Italy 1st
Queensryche 10-25-91 Auburn Hills low
Scorpions 7-27-01 Seoul, Korea 1st
Scorpions 6-23-02 Wantagh, NY 1st
Stevie Nicks 7-10-01 Chicago, IL 1st
Stevie Nicks 9-25-01 Naples, FL 1st

sabkisscrue
2010-03-21, 03:29 PM
bootleggin official releases as well huh?

You mean rare out of print official japanese releases? Ive done those, yes.

sabkisscrue
2010-03-21, 03:47 PM
But the 8mm step?

Instead of copying it to vhs, it was copied to 8mm which I think is better than dubbing to vhs.
Ive seen 8mm masters dubbed to vhs as well as 8mm and the 8mms had more detail to them. So it makes total sense to me it was dubbed to 8mm. Also 8mm/hi8 is way easier to track, you dont get all the issues you get with vhs.

sabkisscrue
2010-03-21, 04:03 PM
(and I havent even listed upgrades ive gotten on dvd)

Reading that back it sounded confusing. What I meant was upgrades ive gotten from other people.

sabkisscrue
2010-03-21, 04:24 PM
you conveniently failed to answer the question about the post-production/restoration work you said yer doing to these transfers

Failed? Are you mad, Guvnah?
No, I never said I did any post-production work. You extracted whatever you wanted out of my response to a question where you asked about multiple things. What is clear to me is you have a vendetta against me. You are asking for answers to immaterial questions that you know the answer to already. Ask yourself, why does it matter to you? You havent seen anything ive done and I doubt you have any plans to watch anything ive done.
Your motive here is to mailgn me and therefore, I will no longer respond to any questions you have. If another Mod has a question, he can most certainly ask and I will respond but im not gonna deal with someone whos made it their obsession and job to malign me.

oryo
2010-03-21, 04:48 PM
:catfight:

oryo
2010-03-21, 04:49 PM
BREAKING NEWS!!!

Sabkisscrue/Deuce8pro has been banned from vhtrading.com

:ignore:


:clap::):clap:

M_M_H
2010-03-21, 05:17 PM
Making better-than-crap quality from average sources does not require "lots of money", it just takes some effort -- effort to learn what is good and what is not, and time to learn proper settings in the hardware/software (as opposed to "auto" or default settings).

Buying a VCR from Walmart/Best Buy (or using the POS you bought in 1995), and hooking it up directly into the cheapest DVD recorder available from Walmart/Best Buy is sloppy and makes crap. To top it off, you'll get people that make 6-hour mode dubs, complete with tracking errors and audio buzz/hiss, using cheap Memorex blanks. This is then re-encoded even sloppier, and then barfed online into a torrent or onto Youtube.

An hour of reading would have avoided that whole mess. :nono:

There should also be a degree of patience. Do one video, and then learn how to do better next time. Sadly, most people try to churn out everything rapid-fire (again, often for some kind of monetary gain or bragging rights), and their 100th video is just as awful as the 1st. That was unnecessary, too!

There needs to be middle ground between lazy crap, and that "best" pro work. And yes, that does require adopting some pro methods and equipment. Even something as simple as a $200-300 JVC/Panasonic VCR will cause massive quality increases. Still not pro, no -- but a heck of a lot better in the quality department.

:thinking::thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

radikal
2010-03-21, 07:00 PM
you conveniently failed to answer the question about the post-production/restoration work you said yer doing to these transfers

Failed? Are you mad, Guvnah?
No, I never said I did any post-production work. You extracted whatever you wanted out of my response to a question where you asked about multiple things. What is clear to me is you have a vendetta against me. You are asking for answers to immaterial questions that you know the answer to already. Ask yourself, why does it matter to you? You havent seen anything ive done and I doubt you have any plans to watch anything ive done.
Your motive here is to mailgn me and therefore, I will no longer respond to any questions you have. If another Mod has a question, he can most certainly ask and I will respond but im not gonna deal with someone whos made it their obsession and job to malign me.

Damn ..This thread is so awesome that it keeps going on all Forums..:lol4: It is so disturbing that everyone seems to always misinterpret what this Mongrel seems to be saying:hmm: All I can recommend to SabDoesCrue is Dr.Phil:thumbsup

bigwurock
2010-03-21, 07:03 PM
can you upload some kiss shows here??

For the Jethro Tull Tard:

KISS 1-26-76 Detroit, MI 2nd
KISS 9-1-77 Houston, TX 1st/2nd
KISS 9-2-77 Houston, TX 1st/2nd
KISS 7-8-79 Largo, MD 1st/2nd
KISS 3-16-86 Des Moines, IA 1st
KISS 12-19-87 New Haven, CT master
KISS 1-17-88 Saginaw, MI 1st
KISS 1-26-88 Poughkeepsie, NY 1st
KISS 2-12-88 Hollywood, FL 1st
KISS 8-2-90 Orlando, FL 1st
KISS 8-3-90 Miami, FL 1st
KISS 8-4-90 Tampa, FL 1st
KISS 8-17-90 Jackson, MS 1st
KISS 8-18-90 Shreveport, LA 1st
KISS 8-19-90 Biloxi, MS 1st
KISS 8-21-90 Houston, TX 1st
KISS 8-22-90 San Antonio, TX 1st
KISS 8-24-90 Little Rock, AR 1st
KISS 8-25-90 Oklahoma City, OK 1st
KISS 10-13-90 London, Ontario, Canada 1st
KISS 10-27-90 New Haven, CT 1st
KISS 10-1-92 Bethlehem, PA 1st
KISS 10-2-92 Binghampton, NY 1st
KISS 10-11-92 Uniondale, NY low
KISS 10-29-92 Daytona Beach, FL 1st
KISS 10-31-92 Miami, FL 1st
KISS 11-22-92 Toledo, OH 1st
KISS 12-16-92 Sacramento, CA 1st
KISS 12-19-92 San Bernadino, CA master
KISS 12-19-92 San Bernadino, CA 1st
KISS 7-30-94 Nashville, TN low
KISS 9-1-94 Santiago, Chile master
KISS 9-3-94 Buenos Aries, Argentina low
KISS 10-21-94 Phoenix, AZ 1st
KISS 1-28-95 Nagoya, Japan 1st/2nd
KISS 6-17-95 Burbank, CA 1st
KISS 6-17-95 Burbank, CA 1st
KISS 6-24-95 Las Vegas, NV 1st
KISS 6-15-96 Irvine, CA 1st
KISS 6-30-96 Louisville, Kentucky 1st
KISS 7-2-96 St. Louis, MO 1st
KISS 7-3-96 Kansas City, MO 1st
KISS 7-5-96 Dallas, TX 1st
KISS 7-6-96 Houston, TX 1st
KISS 7-25-96 New York City, NY master
KISS 8-21-96 Phoenix, AZ 1st
KISS 8-23-96 Los Angeles, CA 1st
KISS 8-24-96 Inglewood, CA 1st
KISS 8-24-96 Inglewood, CA master diff angle
KISS 8-25-96 Los Angeles, CA master
KISS 8-27-96 San Jose master (forgot to add)
KISS 9-17-96 Miami, FL 1st
KISS 9-20-96 St. Petersburgh, FL 1st
KISS 9-22-96 Orlando, FL 1st
KISS 10-1-96 Atlanta, GA 1st/2nd
KISS 10-8-96 Philly, PA master
KISS 10-11-96 Philly, PA 1st
KISS 10-21-96 Chicago, IL 1st
KISS 10-31-96 Irvine, CA master
KISS 11-1-96 Irvine, CA 1st
KISS 11-25-96 London, England 1st
KISS 12-7-96 Gothenburg, Sweden 1st
KISS 12-18-96 Milano, Italy 1st
KISS 12-31-96 East Rutherford, NJ 1st/2nd
KISS 4-5-97 Columbus, GA 2nd/3rd
KISS 4-20-97 Cedar Rapids, IA 1st
KISS 10-31-98 Los Angeles, CA 1st
KISS 11-18-98 University Park, PA 1st
KISS 11-21-98 Philly, PA master
KISS 11-25-98 Hartford, CT 1st
KISS 11-27-98 Long Island, NY 1st
KISS 12-29-98 Chicago, IL 1st
KISS 3-15-99 Milan, Italy 1st
KISS 3-12-00 Tucson, AZ 1st
KISS 3-14-00 Las Cruces, NM 1st
KISS 3-19-00 San Diego, CA 1st 2cam/1cam master
KISS 3-21-00 Bakersfield, CA master
KISS 3-23-00 Oakland, CA master
KISS 5-2-00 Charleston, WV 1st
KISS 5-9-00 Toledo, OH 1st
KISS 5-11-00 Chicago, IL 1st
KISS 6-28-00 East Rutherford, NJ 1st
KISS 7-22-00 George, WA (The Gorge) 1st
KISS 9-15-00 Binghampton, NY 1st
Kissvision compilations 74 to 83 1st
Kiss 11-30-75 Largo, MD/Houston 76 partial 1st/2nd
Kiss 11-8-90 Hershey, PA 1st
Kiss 5-5-92 Philly, PA 1st
Kiss 10-1-92 Bethlehem, PA diff version low
Kiss 10-2-92 Binghamton, NY diff version low
Kiss 6-25-95 Phoenix, AZ 1st
Kiss 7-25-95 Toronto, Can 1st
Kiss 9-17-96 Miami, FL 1st
Kiss 9-20-96 St. Petersburgh, FL 1st
Kiss 12-31-99 Vancouver, BC 1st
Kiss 3-18-00 Anaheim, CA 1st
Kiss 3-18-01 Nagoya, Japan 1st/2nd

bestatworms2
2010-03-21, 08:12 PM
can u upload some rare metallica shows here please?

sabkisscrue
2010-03-21, 08:13 PM
can u upload some rare metallica shows here please?

http://metallifukinca.com

Ratt Trader
2010-03-21, 08:51 PM
How can I get my hands on these 3:

Ratt 1-12-89 Tokyo, Japan 1st
Ratt 12-18-90 Tampa, FL 8mm master
Ratt 7-11-99 Camden, NJ 1st


:)

lordsmurf
2010-03-21, 08:55 PM
Instead of copying it to vhs, it was copied to 8mm which I think is better than dubbing to vhs.
Ive seen 8mm masters dubbed to vhs as well as 8mm and the 8mms had more detail to them. So it makes total sense to me it was dubbed to 8mm. Also 8mm/hi8 is way easier to track, you dont get all the issues you get with vhs.

VHS or 8mm makes more sense.

Honestly, 8mm, VHS and Betamax are all about the same for quality. You need Super Beta, Betacam, S-VHS or Hi8 to jump up in quality.

8mm/Hi8 doesn't really "track" -- that's both a benefit and a problem. The benefit is when the tape plays perfectly because it was recorded in a perfect deck. However, as with all other analog video recorders, gravity shifts things over time. When 8mm/Hi8 is misaligned, all hell breaks loose -- the tapes become paperweights, unless you can pull out a scope and manually misalign another player to match the badly-made tapes (and good luck with that!) Here's a more technical explanation on 8mm tracking (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showthread.php/8mm-playback-problems-1602.html).

sabkisscrue
2010-03-21, 09:18 PM
How can I get my hands on these 3:

Ratt 1-12-89 Tokyo, Japan 1st
Ratt 12-18-90 Tampa, FL 8mm master
Ratt 7-11-99 Camden, NJ 1st


:)


Send me a PM and will discuss it.

Waldo Jeffers
2010-03-21, 10:06 PM
EPIC Thread... :headbang:

sabkisscrue
2010-03-21, 10:29 PM
VHS or 8mm makes more sense.

Honestly, 8mm, VHS and Betamax are all about the same for quality. You need Super Beta, Betacam, S-VHS or Hi8 to jump up in quality.

8mm/Hi8 doesn't really "track"

Thats a good thing then.


-- that's both a benefit and a problem. The benefit is when the tape plays perfectly because it was recorded in a perfect deck. However, as with all other analog video recorders, gravity shifts things over time. When 8mm/Hi8 is misaligned, all hell breaks loose -- the tapes become paperweights, unless you can pull out a scope and manually misalign another player to match the badly-made tapes (and good luck with that!) Here's a more technical explanation on 8mm tracking (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showthread.php/8mm-playback-problems-1602.html).

Some recent hi8 transfers ive done the guy who I got the tapes from said that he couldnt get the sound to track on them or they had sound problems.
Now I dont know if its because the tapes he bought were bad or the camera was going out of alignment, but I was able to get the tapes to play and the audio was okay using the trv-740.

Let me just say without showing proof, that there does indeed seem to be some quality differences between a vhs dub and an 8mm dub.
Maybe its because you said it best that 8mm/hi8 tapes dont really need to be tracked. But I have seen both vhs and 8mm dubs from the same masters and the 8mm dubs appear to contain more detail than the vhs dubs, in other words they looked closer to what the master would look like but not exactly what the master would look like.
I can only suggest that maybe 8mm is a better and more reliable format than vhs for dubbing purposes.

sabkisscrue
2010-03-21, 10:43 PM
can you upload some kiss shows here??

Working on it

AAR.oner
2010-03-22, 09:13 AM
rest assured sabkiss/deuce this is nothing personal and i'm in no way interested in maligning anyone...i've continually tried to bring this back to the technical, and you continually avoid that and take it to the personal

you said you did post work on yer transfers [color correction, picture/audio restoration, etc], i asked what since yer lineages didn't seem to reflect that, and then you say i'm attacking you?! its all right here in this thread for fuck's sake!!! :lol4:

i will ask again, because i'm staff here and have every right to ask -- Do you or do you not do any picture/audio restoration, color correction/RGB balance, brightness/contrast, etc? a simple yes or no will do...not a big deal if you don't, you've simply alluded to it before and it seemed to not match the lineage you posted...i'll leave it to the other mods who were interested to ask any other questions they might have as well, maybe you can answer them with a little more maturity and honesty than you have with me





for anyone reading this thread -- we take quality a little more seriously here at TTD than some of the other trading sites, if you post a lossy show or don't have accurate/sufficient lineage, it'll get pulled...if you post official releases, it'll get pulled...if you come to our vine or snail mail forum and steal from other traders, yer gonna get banned and yer name posted everywhere...and yes, if you continually lie or bend truths and then backpedal, someones probly gonna call ya out on it

thats not being attacked, thats gettin called out on yer bs

schmoe75
2010-03-22, 12:36 PM
From Post 72
as you've admitted before, you know or do nothing in regards to color balance & correction, cleaning up the picture or audio, or any sort of post-production whatsoever.

Admitted? Are you serious? I do all that actually. But you dont wanna believe that.
to which you then back pedalled...
Failed? Are you mad, Guvnah?
No, I never said I did any post-production work.


...and other than "your response is absurd", you never addressed why you do the exact opposite of what your blue god says:

Your capture format won't be the same as your encoded format. You want to minimize quality losses at each stage, so avoid capturing with MPEG2.

boxedart
2010-03-22, 01:46 PM
I would also like to see the lineage on the VH Largo show clarified as well. I was the one who brought it up and I find it slighty amusing that when I brought up the 8mm part of the lineage I was told:
Well first of all you didnt read the lineage correctly

I repsonded and I restated sabkisscrue's linege as they had listed it and I also posted screengrabs of one of the flaws contained in this new version that is not in the BTB version. And I asked:
On the other hand you could take the time to explain why your "Master Reels (3/4 inch tape) > Master VHS > 1st gen 8mm" source is in worse shape than BTB's "Low Gen. VHS" is.

That question was never answered, nor were my questions about the 8mm step:

You seem to recognize the correct lineage this time but you are wrong in your assessment that I dubbed the reels to vhs and than to an 8mm tape. It almost sounds as if you are critical of the lineage as well.
...do you even understand what low gen video looks like, compared to video that isnt low gen? Im not trying to be rude but you come off as wanting to be an expert.

So, once again, I made an attempt to explain the lineage - as was posted by sabkisscrue - and also made an attmept to clarify if sabkisscrue was also duece8pro. No direct answer was given but I did bring up the VHT thread in which duece8pro said this new version is:

...what I think is the best version of Largo 82. Sourced from a 1st gen 8mm copy off a master vhs that came off the reels.

So I questioned the use of "master" and "1st gen" because a dub of a dub in not a "1st gen". I also brought up the fact that the end of the show was missing and that other versions exist with the complete show. In response to that I was responsed to with:

...you were wrong about the lineage. After another try, you finally got it right. But this time you managed to twist my words around, even though you said at the beginning of your post you werent gonna do that, you managed to do that by stipulating or insuniating that the lineage is or may not be accurate.

So I again, this time very specifically, stated:
you are the one who is saying this version originated from "Master Reels (3/4 inch tape)", not me. You are the one saying it was dubbed to a "Master VHS", not me. You are the one saying it was dubbed onto 8mm, not me. You are the one implying this is from a second gen dub, not me.

And the response this time was:
Well, you have continued to stipulate a great deal about the lineage that it cannot be sourced from the master because the picture contains a flaw or two and that the video is incomplete, by a few mins. I think your stipulations are ludicrous as well as your long, long posts

It needs to be noted at this point other people had posted about the quality and that this new version contained glitches/flaws that were not found in the BTB version, And each one was responded to with a "well, you are wrong" type of answer by sabkisscrue.

And here we are now. Because of the questionable lineage on the VH Largo show and the use of terms such as "master" and "1st Gen" I am now questioning the lineage of all that duece8pro/sabkisscrue has done. Look over their "resume" posted in this thread - how many say "1st"? Based on this discussion and the one on the VH Largo thread, if you believe the lineage than a dub was made onto VHS from the venue masters (A 1st Gen) and than dubbed onto 8mm (A 2nd gen) and than dubbed onto a stand alone DVD recorded (A 3rd Gen if you want to be accurate). The burned DVD was sent to someone else to author and output with "no re-encoding", and it was presented here. However it is important to note that duece8pro/sabkisscrue uses the terms "Master VHS" and "1st Gen 8mm" to describe these, assumedly, 1st and 2nd gen sources. To me that is not an accurate lineage.

If you add onto all of this the various conversations going on there are far more questions that answers now. I read the same thing AAR.oner, and others, have read. Just an overview of this thread so far as it relates to the post-production question:

The VH show:
Lineage according to sabkisscrue:
Master Reels (3/4 inch tape) > Master VHS > 1st gen 8mm >
Sony TRV-740 Digital8 Camera with TBC/DNR > firewire > JVC DRM-100 Dvd Recorder >
XP mode > 2 dvd-r SA Authored with ac3 audio > Reauthored on a DUAL LAYER by Skulljam9 without Re-Encoding

On the topic at hand:
The point is, you need an aggressive amount of filtering to clean up vhs chroma and luminance noise. My equipment does the job, period and im willing to prove that.

My preferred method is to capture to avi, spend some time looking at different filter results, then encode with the best processing I can determine for that video. I look at the video through software Vectorscope and Waveform Monitor apps to see how the color ranges conform to broadcast standards, then tweak black level and other proc amp stuff as needed. I wouldn't want to rely on a solely hardware chain because I can't go back and tweak things later.

I understand this is just a hobby and also understand that, when it comes to restoration, there is more to it than just popping a dub of a dub into a camera or VTR, hitting play, and than hitting record on a stand alone DVD burner.

Based on the results ive gotten, yes I would say emphatically
it is one of the best if not the best methods to transfer most vhs/svhs tapes.[SNIP]There are different definitions of great that all apply to me and what I do:
1. My upgrades are of importance and significance in the trading community. People enjoy and love them because people like myself search out for this stuff.
2. I do a great job
3. Im someone who has achieved a lot by working hard and putting a lot of effort into
finding low gen upgrades and producing them, therefore I am one of the greats in the entire trading and collecting community.

...as you've admitted before, you know or do nothing in regards to color balance & correction, cleaning up the picture or audio, or any sort of post-production whatsoever.

Admitted? Are you serious? I do all that actually. But you dont wanna believe that.

...according to every show you've u/led here, and the ones i've run across searching real quick, its nothing but a bunch of built-in "processors" on yer deck and camcorder passthroughs...no post production whatsoever...which then begs the question, if yer not lying here & you "do all that actually" -- are you lying on yer lineages?

We're not gonna get into minutia.

Oh - and as for the whole post production thing - do you even know what that means? Every time you have "discussed" what you do you say all you do is hit play on one source and hit record on another. You then say you send that stand alone burned DVD out to someone else for "authoring". If anyone is remotely close to doing any post on your work it is the person who is doing the authoring.

This is what this thread has come down to, a couple of peoples mentally ill obsession with the minutia as well as every single word or sentence I have to say. You two can carry on and on and on and on for as long as you like, its not gonna change what I do, its not gonna affect what I do, and its not gonna dictate what I do. I will continue to do what I do because I know I am the best at it.

you conveniently failed to answer the question about the post-production/restoration work you said yer doing to these transfers, or as you call it "minutia" [first time i've ever heard video restoration referred to as "minor or minute"]...its been brought to my attention that the VBT mods are very much interested in knowing yer answer as well...so do you plan to elaborate on said minutiae?

So if Lordsmurf said to you that post production takes a lot more work than what you are doing you would tell them the same thing?

It ranges from hours to days to weeks to months to years -- it really depends on the goals of the project and the source available.

No, I never said I did any post-production work. You extracted whatever you wanted out of my response to a question where you asked about multiple things. What is clear to me is you have a vendetta against me. You are asking for answers to immaterial questions that you know the answer to already.

you said you did post work on yer transfers [color correction, picture/audio restoration, etc], i asked what since yer lineages didn't seem to reflect that, and then you say i'm attacking you?! its all right here in this thread for fuck's sake!!!

i will ask again, because i'm staff here and have every right to ask -- Do you or do you not do any picture/audio restoration, color correction/RGB balance, brightness/contrast, etc? a simple yes or no will do...not a big deal if you don't, you've simply alluded to it before and it seemed to not match the lineage you posted..

lordsmurf
2010-03-22, 02:38 PM
Let me just say without showing proof, that there does indeed seem to be some quality differences between a vhs dub and an 8mm dub. Maybe its because you said it best that 8mm/hi8 tapes dont really need to be tracked. But I have seen both vhs and 8mm dubs from the same masters and the 8mm dubs appear to contain more detail than the vhs dubs, in other words they looked closer to what the master would look like but not exactly what the master would look like. I can only suggest that maybe 8mm is a better and more reliable format than vhs for dubbing purposes.
What you've observed mostly comes down to the quality of the tape in use, as well as the quality of the recorders/players in use. You'll come across far more inferior VHS tapes/players/recorders/cameras than you will in the 8mm format --- but that's mostly because it was a near-monopoly by Sony. It was their format, after all. And we all know how much a death-grip Sony keeps on its products.

...and other than "your response is absurd", you never addressed why you do the exact opposite of what your blue god says:
Insulting me why?

avoid capturing with MPEG2.
Depending on about a half-dozen factors (between source and encoding specs), capturing to MPEG-2 can be anywhere from brilliant to bone-headed. All the following considerations have to be made:

Program streams, transport streams?
Bit-rate?
MP@<hidden>, MP@<hidden>, H-12@<hidden>, 422@<hidden>, another one?
What's the temporal compression like? IBP GOP? IP GOP? I-only GOP? If IBP or IP, what's the length? (i.e., Long or Short?)
Closed or open?
Which specs? DVD-Video, pre-defined editing spec or something else? None?
What's the SNR of the source? (#/% not required, descriptions okay)
What's the encoding chipset or software encoding engine?
What about the matrix or discreet cosine values?
CBR, VBR or CVBR?


In general, amateur devices make poor choices or are very limited, therefore you should avoid MPEG-2. However there are many high-end devices that allow for excellent MPEG capturing/recording.

boxedart
2010-03-22, 03:05 PM
If you're going to insult me, then I'm going to make you look stupid...

What do you refer to by "MPEG2" exactly?

Program streams, transport streams?
MP@<hidden>, MP@<hidden>, H-12@<hidden>, 422@<hidden>, another one?
What's the temporal compression like? IBP GOP? IP GOP? I-only GOP? If IBP or IP, what's the length? (i.e., Long or Short?)
Closed or open?
Which specs? DVD-Video, Sony edit or something else? None?
What's the SNR of the source? (#/% not required, descriptions okay)
What's the encoding chipset or software encoding engine?
What about the matrix or discreet cosine values?
CBR, VBR or CVBR?

MPEG-2 is a generic description.

Depending on about a half-dozen factors (between source and encoding specs), capturing to MPEG-2 can be anywhere from brilliant to bone-headed.

I'm pretty sure deuce8 could answer all those questions. Can you?

(I'm nice and share my knowledge with others --- but don't piss me off, I fight back.)

Actually, lordsmurf, Schmoe was quoting you. In relation to this discussion sabkisscrue/duece8pro maintains that their method is the best out there for doing dubs and restorations. Some of us question that and if you read the threads you can clearly see that. Many of us have stated variations of what you stated, in reguards to dubbing to a stand alone DVD recorder from a source that is old (needs restoration/post production work) - "You want to minimize quality losses at each stage, so avoid capturing with MPEG2." That would mean, based on the discussion here that recording to a JVC DRM-100 Dvd Recorder is not the best thing to do.

So if you think you are making schmoe75 look stupid you are mistaken. Again, in your own words, as it relates to this discussion - You want to minimize quality losses at each stage, so avoid capturing with MPEG2.

lordsmurf
2010-03-22, 03:43 PM
I realized that a few minutes later, and it's why the post was edited. :)
Although I do still question the insulting "blue god" BS.

That would mean, based on the discussion here that recording to a JVC DRM-100 Dvd Recorder is not the best thing to do.
Again, refer back to the last post, in its final version. The JVC DR-M100 DVD recorder is a higher-end device, and is therefore immune to much of the generic "don't use MPEG-2" warnings. The chispet in that machine not only transfers, but improves the digital version as compared to the analog source. However, it should be noted that good settings must still be selected -- don't pick SP mode, for example. These recorders have been discussed in detail for years now, especially here (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/digital-video-4.html) and here (http://forum.videohelp.com/forums/41-Restoration).

sabkisscrue
2010-03-22, 03:51 PM
rest assured sabkiss/deuce this is nothing personal and i'm in no way interested in maligning anyone...

I think thats dishonest at best. Tell me,
why are you so interested and what are you trying to achieve by questioning me and telling me what I do is wrong when the results speak for themselves (and there is a great deal of them), some of the results which can be found at this very site. So how dare you suggest what ive done is wrong or not the right way. You are absolutely wrong about that.

Do you or do you not do any picture/audio restoration, color correction/RGB balance, brightness/contrast, etc?

Im not gonna answer your question with a yes or no. What am I gonna do is say that I take everything into consideration. Color, brightness, black level, chroma, grain, detail, sharpness, etc.


if you continually lie or bend truths and then backpedal, someones probly gonna call ya out on it

Here we go with being accused of being a liar (before I was just making grandiose claims) and you wanna sit there and tell me that you arent trying to malign me?
You can think im a liar, all you want.
The proof is in the blood pudding, isnt that what they have in your jolly ol england?

"your response is absurd", you never addressed why you do the exact opposite of what your blue god says:

Oh I think every word, every line, and every post that AA, yourself, or box has directed towards me has been absurd.

you never addressed why you do the exact opposite of what your blue god says:

Im not doing the exact opposite of what he says or suggests.
Lordsmurf is the biggest advocate of the JVC DRM-100 dvd recorder as well as the JVC 9000 model SVHS decks with TBC/DNR bult in.

I am now questioning the lineage of all that duece8pro/sabkisscrue has done. Look over their "resume" posted in this thread - how many say "1st"?

This is clearly someone who is on the brink of madness.

lordsmurf
2010-03-22, 04:10 PM
I think AAR.oner is genuinely interested in the tech, even if he does seem a bit down on you. I can understand his questions, because it can be hard to see improvements in videos, when you've never seen the far-worse source that it came from. I have to constantly remind people that restoring video/audio has a goal of "making it better" and not "making it perfect". This isn't CSI, where magic filters exist. Some people just don't understand until they get a lot more information, with plenty of examples.

His attacks are frustrations with understanding, as far as I can tell. Fairly innocuous. :)

sabkisscrue
2010-03-22, 04:31 PM
His attacks are frustrations with understanding, as far as I can tell. Fairly innocuous. :)

Eh.
I dont know why he needs to understand anything I do, as he hasnt seen anything ive done and I doubt he plans on it. This went from a respectful PM discussion just like you said frustrations with understanding to a nearly 10 page thread about bullshit, to be honest.
I cant win no matter what I say, if I defend myself im accused of being arrogant or narcisstic or making grandiose claims, if I produce a list of what ive done, im accused of being a liar. They wanna humilate me. That is their goal.

boxedart
2010-03-22, 05:12 PM
Again, refer back to the last post, in its final version. The JVC DR-M100 DVD recorder is a higher-end device, and is therefore immune to much of the generic "don't use MPEG-2" warnings. The chispet in that machine not only transfers, but improves the digital version as compared to the analog source. However, it should be noted that good settings must still be selected -- don't pick SP mode, for example.

Speaking only for myself - if all you are doing is making a dub of something you want on DVD than it may be fine. But I would never take a tape that needs work, dub it to a stand alone DVD recorder and then run all over town saying I do the best work ever. I would not do that for a few reasons - the main one being if I have access to something other than a DVD encoded file to work with I would use that first. In the scenerio being laid out here the sources are not DVD's, they are tapes. Given that there is nothing grandiose about what sabkisscrue is doing - people take their old video to all sorts of places for a $25 dub to DVD...and they all use the same basic process - tape in > signal out > stand alone DVD recorder. But they call it what it is - they don't charge you $25 and than sit there for a month or more cleaning up each frame, cleaning up the audio, do multi pass encodes, making custom motion menus and authoring a DVD. The places that *do* do that charge a lot more and use more than a player feed and a recorder in the process.

So, again, for doing post production/restoration work I firmly believe dubbing from one source to a DVD recorder does not qualify as doing all that could be done to work on that source.

Now if you want to take the discussion into another direction - certianly there would be a huge difference between, say, a dub from VHS to SD-DVD and VHS to D1/D2/D3/D5, but I don't know of any hobbyists who have any of these decks laying around. Even their use on a Pro level was scarce - several years ago I was working on a project and the producers wanted it to be laid back to D3. When I called all of the network affilates not only did they not have any some of the head techs didn't have a clue what I was talking about. ("Um...do you mean Digi-Beta?" One of them asked). And my point is not that the "quality" would be "better", it is that it would be better to make a dub to a D1/D2/D3/D5 if your goal was to do more work on the footage *before* it was released.

...it can be hard to see improvements in videos, when you've never seen the far-worse source that it came from.

The problem with that comment is that, for me, my involvment came because of a supposed "upgrade" of a show that I *had* seen "far-worse" sources of. I also had seen what was (and still seems to be) considered to be a "massive" upgrade to those "far-worse" sources that were in circulation. So when a newer "upgrade" was put out to the community I was interested and I downloaded it. When I watched it I relized it was, in some ways, worse than the 2007 "upgrade" image wise. However I still made it a point to state that this "new" version was good as well and further pointed out that the 2007 version *and* this new version were the best out there. But the more people questioned sabkisscure/deuce8pro, the more issues arose. One of the biggest ones for me is the use of the term "master" and "1st gen" as it relates to an accurate lineage. The 2007 version is free of the glitches that the deuce8pro has. Matter of fact the deuce8pro version contains the same glitches, in the same locations, as the older, "far-worse", sources did...which is a clear indicator this "new" version was sourced from the same copy that those older, "far worse" versions were sourced from. And that is *not* that same version the 2007 upgrade was sourced from. (And neither version was sourced from the full source that the even older, "far-worse", copies had been made from) Whereas the 2007 verison was sourced from a Low gen" VHS this new version is claimed to have been sourced from the "master reels". However anyone who questions the post work done (or not done), lineage and deuce8pro's liberal use of the terms "master" and "1st gen" is met with comments such as this (The latest response to my question about linege):

This is clearly someone who is on the brink of madness.

As I stated in the VH Largo thread - The quality of what sabkisscrue/deuce8pro feels is the best, and his attitude of being the best, would never be allowed in the real world of DVD production. But, if you understand some basic things - that this is a hobby and this is tape trading - than you understand there are flaws in source material that is almost 30 years old, you understand there are various ways to present these, and that most of the time we try to be a community. Had sabkisscrue/deuce8pro simply stated that there were flaws in his version and that he did his best on trying to present an upgrade from what he believes is a higher source than we would not be here. Instead he has told every single person who feels his verison is not as good as the 2007 version, both here and on other boards, that their opinions are wrong; the quality of not only this, but all his work, is great; that he is great; and that his method of dubbing/restoration/post is the best there is. Comments such as those cause the pros, such as myself, to step in more and question the things being said more. In my case, as I pointed out to sabkisscrue/deuce8pro in the VH Largo thread, I am going to be more questioning of someone who says they have a release from the "master" vs someone who says they have a release from a "low gen" - even more so when the "low gen" version has less flaws in it than the "master" version does.

sabkisscrue
2010-03-22, 06:13 PM
Speaking only for myself - if all you are doing is making a dub of something you want on DVD than it may be fine. But I would never take a tape that needs work, dub it to a stand alone DVD recorder and then run all over town saying I do the best work ever.

Everytime these guys say "stand alone dvd recorder" it reminds me when the Republicans throw the word "socialist" around.

M_M_H
2010-03-22, 06:29 PM
Speaking only for myself - if all you are doing is making a dub of something you want on DVD than it may be fine. But I would never take a tape that needs work, dub it to a stand alone DVD recorder and then run all over town saying I do the best work ever.

Everytime these guys say "stand alone dvd recorder" it reminds me when the Republicans throw the word "socialist" around.

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/3871/backpedal.gif

schmoe75
2010-03-22, 06:39 PM
Although I do still question the insulting "blue god" BS.
smurf's are blue, you have lord in your name, and according to him, you are the only person who has the slightest clue and the only one who actually knows more than him about video work.

Everytime these guys say "stand alone dvd recorder"
Regardless of what you have going in the middle, when you press play on a VCR, then press record on a machine that compresses the data directly to mpeg2 and AND records it directly to a DVD...what exactly would you call it other than a standalone dvd recorder?

sabkisscrue
2010-03-22, 06:55 PM
what exactly would you call it

I would call it yours and others attempt to condescend, malign, misjudge, and humilate me. All based on a lack of knowledge of the equipment I use, how I use it,
what I do with it, what I say or what you think ive said as well as the people I deal with and the lineage/generation of the sources I use.

Thulani
2010-03-22, 06:59 PM
I predict no future evolution for this thread.

sabkisscrue
2010-03-22, 07:09 PM
his attitude of being the best, would never be allowed in the real world of DVD production.

Im gonna explain this one last time to the hard at learning.

When I say im the best,

its based on multiple things.

1. I have connections and friends who have fantastic collections of masters and 1st gens, as well as my own collection
2. I have the knowledge. I did my homework. I took peoples advice such as Lordsmurf's and used it
3. The idea behind the equipment I use is "making it better"
4. Ive been told time and time again by others that I do a great job. Im not saying that to pat myself back, thats the feedback ive gotten
5. Ive been able to seek out and find and improve a great deal of shows that needed that treatment. Just ask the Metallica community.

schmoe75
2010-03-22, 07:09 PM
I would call it yours and others attempt to condescend, malign, misjudge, and humilate me.
You've done that all by yourself...no one else typed the words under your name all across the net.

schmoe75
2010-03-22, 07:10 PM
I predict no future evolution for this thread.
Agreed...thread closed.

AAR.oner
2010-03-23, 01:31 PM
but i wanted to see just one more attempt at avoiding any discussion of technical matters whatsoever...cmon schmoe, don't close it! :lol: