How do I burn .flac & .shn files onto an audio CDR?

[kurt_fire]

I have many bootlegs that are in .flac (and one in .shn) format that I want to burn to CDRs so that I can play them in my car/home stereo. I usually just burn .mp3s onto CDRs and put close to 80 minutes onto them. Can I do the same using .flac and .shn? I know the size of the "lossless" formats is much larger than .mp3, but I can I still put 80 minutes of .flac files onto a CDR?

I do have a program that allows me to convert .flac and .shn to .mp3 but I really don't want to have to do that if I can burn them in their original lossless format.

Anybody have any tips? Is this possible?

I have Sonic: RecordNOW burning software on my computer and I tried to make an audio CD with .flac files using the exact same method I use to make 80 minutes CDs but Sonic won't accept them for some reason.

[AAR.oner]

you'll need to decode the lossless files to .wav using one of the programs listed in TTD's FAQ section such as flacfrontend and mkw [i use Trader's Little Helper -- http://thor.prohosting.com/roh0205/ -- but you need to d/l and install "v0.8.0 Build 43" FIRST, then d/l and install the updated "v0.9.3 Build 56" next]

then just burn the .wavs to Audio CD using whatever burning program you use.

[kurt_fire]

you'll need to decode the lossless files to .wav using one of the programs listed in TTD's FAQ section [i use Trader's Little Helper]

then just burn the .wavs to Audio CD using whatever burning program you use.

Thanks for the quick help. Is .wav lossless? Will this degrade/hinder the performance of the audio files?

I just looked at my "conversion" program. I can convert it to "Wave." Is this what you are referring to?

[Cruzweb]

yes, wav and wave are the same thing, .wav is just the shortened file extention. Wave is the uncompressed lossless native form for music

[brimstone]

When we talk about lossless we usually mean a lossless compression. wav files are the uncompressed files that are losslessly compressed to .flac and .shn.

[AAR.oner]

Thanks for the quick help. Is .wav lossless? Will this degrade/hinder the performance of the audio files?

.wav is a "pure" uncompressed audio file format [also referred to as PCM .wav ]...so yes, it is "lossless", beacause it has no compression...

lossless compression [such as .flac, .shn, .ape, applelossless codec, etc...] takes a .wav file and "shrinks" its size WITHOUT causing any changes or "damage" to the original .wav file...though each format varies, typically "lossless" files are between 50-70% the orig. wav file's size

lossy compression [such as .mp3, .ogg, .aac, etc...] shrinks the size much more than lossless, but at the expense of the audio...for instance, .mp3 strips out a large section of the high-end freqs completely, thus losing the "brightness" of the sound...

Therefore, for trading purposes [and in my opinion, even for personal listening] Lossless = GOOD...Lossy = BAD


I just looked at my "conversion" program. I can convert it to "Wave." Is this what you are referring to?

what conversion program/s are you using?

[kurt_fire]

what conversion program/s are you using?

dBPowerAMP Music Converter

So I'll just convert all of them to .wav and I still will be able to put 80 minutes of music onto a CDR and maintain the .flac sound quality?

[vegas_jay]

A .wav is not compressed as long as the contained audio is PCM. Wave files are allowed to contain other audio formats as well, including some kinds of comressed audio (such as MPEG).

[AAR.oner]

dBPowerAMP Music Converter

So I'll just convert all of them to .wav

yes, IF dBPowerAMP Music Converter has the ability to decode .flac/.shn files [i've never used the program]

i would recommend using a more "tried & true" program though...you can check the FAQ for recommend programs, however i like roann's Trader's Little Helper (he developed the program specifically for "trading" purposes]...it will pretty much "do" everything in re: to lossless music [except encoding .wav to lossless--this will be included in a future version] i have a feeling this program will become the "standard" soon, since it'll do what previously took 3 or 4 programs to do...i linked to it above^^^

and I still will be able to put 80 minutes of music onto a CDR and maintain the .flac sound quality?

yes you'll be able to put 80 mins of music onto a cdr, and it'll maintain the original .wav's sound quality [the .wav file before it was compressed to lossless format for seeding/trading]...

[kurt_fire]

http://www.download.com/dBpowerAmp-Music-Converter/3000-2140_4-10341187.html?tag=lst-0-1

That's a link to dbPowerAMP. I downloaded the codecs, or whatever you call them, for .shn, .flac, .ogg, and one other I forget the extension. It appears to be a good program. Or do you think I should use Trader's Little Helper instead?

And by the way, thanks for all the quick help guys. I appreciate it bigtime :lol:

[AAR.oner]

i'd go with trader's Little Helper...*note the download "sequence" i posted above

if you have any ?s regarding how to use it, PM me...

on a side note, since yer "new" to this and looking for answers, do you think a "Trading 101"-type guide would be beneficial to you? something that covered all the basics, posted at the top of the tech forums, etc.? i had preiously been working on one, but shelfed it [lack of time]...curious as to wether or not its something you would would use, or just skip over...let me know

[AAR.oner]

Trader's Little Helper -- http://thor.prohosting.com/roh0205/ -- but you need to d/l and install "v0.8.0 Build 43" FIRST, then d/l and install the updated "v0.9.3 Build 56" next]

[kurt_fire]

Heck yes I'd read a "Trading 101" type post. Us noobs need to start somewhere :D

I'm just fiddling around with this dbPowerAMP program and have a few more questions. When converting .flac to .wav I get the following options. Which should I select for optimal sound performance?

- 8 bit, 16 bit (CD), 24 bit (DVD), or bits as source

- 8000hz all the way up to 192000hz. Out beside 44100hz it says CD.

I'd guess and say 16bit, 44100hz, but is there a combination I can choose that will increase the sound quality?

[ssamadhi97]

I'd guess and say 16bit, 44100hz, but is there a combination I can choose that will increase the sound quality?
For audio cds 16bit 44100Hz stereo is your only option.

[DoIFeelLucky]

I'm just fiddling around with this dbPowerAMP program and have a few more questions. When converting .flac to .wav I get the following options. Which should I select for optimal sound performance?

- 8 bit, 16 bit (CD), 24 bit (DVD), or bits as source

- 8000hz all the way up to 192000hz. Out beside 44100hz it says CD.

I'd guess and say 16bit, 44100hz, but is there a combination I can choose that will increase the sound quality?
44100Hz/16bit/stereo is the sampling rate, bit depth, and number of channels used for audio CDs, as defined by the Red Book standard. You won't be able to burn an audio CD at any other sampling rate or bit depth.

As for changing the sampling rate/bit depth, DON'T! If you downsample to a lower setting, you will lose quality, naturally. If you upsample to a higher setting, you won't magically gain quality - you are always limited by the quality of the source file.

Here - the frequency response (range of frequency of sound reproduced) of a digital recording is equal to half of the sampling rate. So for 44100Hz, you get a frequency response up to 22050Hz. If you upsample to something higher, no data exists for any frequencies higher than 22050Hz, so you won't gain frequencies that don't even exist in the source file. (Hell, if we could do that, everyone would know about it, and it would be the ultimate form of audio compression!) Same with bit depth... if you convert to a higher bit depth, you add a greater possible degree of precision to the dynamics (volume) of the sound, but the values are the same; again, you're limited by your source.

And really, due to the calculations, rounding, and interpolation that is done in these format conversions, you'll probably introduce a tiny bit of distortion if you convert to a higher setting.

In conclusion, for burning to CD, always use 44100/16. If you are converting files for PC playback, leave the sampling rate and bit depth unchanged.

[Five]

I like to burn with EAC (http://www.exactaudiocopy.de).

[pmonk]

As for changing the sampling rate/bit depth,

Unless (of course) you want to play a GM DVD release (i.e. Texas Pop) on your car stereo :lol

[iamhydrogen]

i use foobar to burn. it is the shizzz :D

[rerem]

http://www.download.com/dBpowerAmp-Music-Converter/3000-2140_4-10341187.html?tag=lst-0-1

That's a link to dbPowerAMP. I downloaded the codecs, or whatever you call them, for .shn, .flac, .ogg, and one other I forget the extension. It appears to be a good program. Or do you think I should use Trader's Little Helper instead?

And by the way, thanks for all the quick help guys. I appreciate it bigtime :lol:
I use dbPowerAmp. I like it,but you know you need to have the flac + SHN plug-ins for it. I recently got little helper an aim to use it soon.
You CAN burn flac or shn to a DATA cd as storage,but no regular CD/DVD player will handle them,even if they do mp3 playback. One portable is working on flac compatibility

[Five]

The Rio Karma has FLAC support

[kurt_fire]

I use dbPowerAmp. I like it,but you know you need to have the flac + SHN plug-ins for it. I recently got little helper an aim to use it soon.
You CAN burn flac or shn to a DATA cd as storage,but no regular CD/DVD player will handle them,even if they do mp3 playback. One portable is working on flac compatibility
When trading bootlegs on this site or others, do people prefer the file put onto a CDR as "data" and left in the .flac format? Or converted to .wav and put onto an 80 minute "audio" CDR so that in can play in a car/home theater?

I do know that if you save as "data" you can probably put about 2-3 times the amount of songs onto each CDR.

[Five]

When trading bootlegs on this site or others, do people prefer the file put onto a CDR as "data" and left in the .flac format? Or converted to .wav and put onto an 80 minute "audio" CDR so that in can play in a car/home theater?

I do know that if you save as "data" you can probably put about 2-3 times the amount of songs onto each CDR.
we absolutely prefer the file put onto a CDR as "data" and left in the .flac format and audio cdrs for personal use only.

[vegas_jay]

Most trades I have done (I am new so the number is not real big) have been audio CDs. I have never asked anybody to just send FLACs and I have only been asked to do it that way one time. But what I do when trade discs come in is extract the waves with EAC, convert them to FLACs, then archive the FLACs on DVD. If I were just being sent FLACs it would save a step for me, but I suppose not everybody uses a similar system.

[AAR.oner]

Most trades I have done (I am new so the number is not real big) have been audio CDs. I have never asked anybody to just send FLACs and I have only been asked to do it that way one time. But what I do when trade discs come in is extract the waves with EAC, convert them to FLACs, then archive the FLACs on DVD. If I were just being sent FLACs it would save a step for me, but I suppose not everybody uses a similar system.

as Five said, the majority of us prefer "data" format, since each time you extract an audio cdr, you have more of a chance to introduce glitches and errors [sort of like copying a cassette over and over]...when trading in data [flac/shn/etc] you eliminate this possibility, as well as have the ability to pass on checksums, etc., which most tradres want to have for authenticating a show...

[salamander]

hmmm, so you want to burn them onto an audio cd right?....i strongly recomend you check out this software called BURRRN :) its awsome you just choose your flac files and it will burn them to a standard audio disc heres the link to there web page ..oh by the way its free.... :clap: http://www.burrrn.net/

[vegas_jay]

as Five said, the majority of us prefer "data" format, since each time you extract an audio cdr, you have more of a chance to introduce glitches and errors [sort of like copying a cassette over and over]...when trading in data [flac/shn/etc] you eliminate this possibility, as well as have the ability to pass on checksums, etc., which most tradres want to have for authenticating a show...

I guess I should start asking about doing it that way when setting up trades. I figured people might think of it as a "hassle".

[kurt_fire]

If you make it a "data" CD and just flop the .flac files on there, the receiver can just extract the .flac files from the "data" disc onto his harddrive; then simply convert them to .wav to put onto a CDR?

Is this the general philosophy?

[AAR.oner]

If you make it a "data" CD and just flop the .flac files on there, the receiver can just extract the .flac files from the "data" disc onto his harddrive; then simply convert them to .wav to put onto a CDR?

Is this the general philosophy?

YES.

...but the "key" to this philosophy is that with trading lossless data discs, you can include the checksum for the lossless files [flacfingerprint for .flac, & .md5 for .shn and others]. Checksums are becoming almost mandatory, in order to preserve the original quality of a particular show...otherwise, you can end up with numerous "versions" of the same show in the "gene pool", each one with the possibility of errors or glitches...none of us want shows with errors right?!?! :D

[AAR.oner]

Kurt and Vegas and any other noobs...

i'll break down "how i do it" just to give you an idea...note: i'm no expert or anything, but i've been a vinyl collector for years now, have worked in recording, and am pretty anal about audio quality...you might not be as anal from a collecting standpoint, but you should attempt to hold the highest standards for *everyone's* sake, since alot of people in the trading community are audiophiles...that said...

i pretty much trade strictly in lossless data format...when i get a set of shows in, i usually copy the show's folder to my comp, decode them to .wav and burn em for listening...i then just archive the data disc i received...

i'd say about 10% of the time i might get something in audio cdr format...
--i extract the disc [using EAC...properly configured for my system]
--i then take the resulting set of .wav files and create a .md5 checksum for the .wav files [using md5summer]
--next, i encode the .wav files to flac [level 8] using Trader's Little Helper.
--i then create a flacfingerprint checksum [.ffp] using TLH.
--i'll also search various online sites [such as db.etree.org] to see if i can find any info re: the show, as well as any previous checksums which i can compare against the ones i just made [if so, i'll usually put them in the info text file along with the shows details, setlists, etc]

now yer ready to archive...
--i create a folder with the bands name, date, and lossless format [i'll make one up - ledzep1972-05-12flac]
--inside this folder i'll place the show's .flac files, BOTH the .wav & .flac checksums (.md5 & .ffp), and the info text file (.txt)...
--i burn this folder to disc using data format [ISO9660] and archive.

The audio cd i received, i then use to listen to the show in the car or wherever...doesn't matter if it gets scratched cuz i've got the data archived.

hope this helps a little...i'll try to "resurrect" the Trading 101 guide and talk to some of the Mods about possibly gettin a version of it available...SLAINTE!

[Five]

I for one would love to check out your revamped trading guide 101.

I prefer to trade for data discs but sometimes (especially with some rarer stuff) the only way I can get it is as an audio cdr... or even a cassette! I then do my research online and send a few pms and emails to try to get short samples from ppl of existing versions of the show which are circulating (if there are any) to make a judgment as to whether the "new" source is different than what's circulating (same taper or not) and also whether the "new" source sounds any cleaner or not. By listening carefully to the crowd noise around the taper I can also determine if the "new" source is from a different taper.

I got a ton of cassette stuff from a friend... some of the tapes are original masters, some are lowgens which widely circulate as a much higher gen, some are highgens which widely circulate as much lowergens and some are even taped from very old bootleg vinyl etc.

hope all that jargon makes some sense...

[AAR.oner]

I for one would love to check out your revamped trading guide 101.


Five...PM sent :D

[Cool Breeze]

I would be quite interested in a "Trading 101"-type guide. Some of us old analog tapers would be most grateful for this type of assistance.