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View Full Version : Is it a noticable difference (VHS Question)


kidrocklive
2007-10-26, 05:21 PM
from like a master vhs tape to a 1st gen vhs tape? I have a person sending me a vhs tape (his master copy) and I don't want to keep him waiting a long time for me to send it back to him (since I really want the tape on dvd) but since I don't have a dvd recorder on my tv and can't think of anyplace to rent one I thought I could do vhs to vhs so I could send his tape back and then just work on getting my stupid tv tuner card working and eventually put it on a dvd.

comm4nd3r
2007-10-26, 05:39 PM
I dont have much experience in this area but making a copy of the master is where you are going to introduce tape hiss and probably some degradation of the video. Would be noticeable, but not THAT noticeable. BUT, since you can get the master it'd be a shame to settle for a 1st gen copy transfer. Do you know anyone who could loan you equipment or let you use their stuff to do the transfer? Does the guy need the tape back quickly for some reason?

kidrocklive
2007-10-26, 05:41 PM
I dont have much experience in this area but making a copy of the master is where you are going to introduce tape hiss and probably some degradation of the video. Would be noticeable, but not THAT noticeable. BUT, since you can get the master it'd be a shame to settle for a 1st gen copy transfer. Do you know anyone who could loan you equipment or let you use their stuff to do the transfer? Does the guy need the tape back quickly for some reason?

He never set a time limit just said he would need it back. I just would feel bad if I kept him waiting on it. I don't know anybody that could loan me equipment to do a transfer either. Would it be a lot better if I got one of those dvd recorders that plugs up to the dvd and did a vhs to dvd transfer?

direwolf-pgh
2007-10-26, 05:48 PM
Tech Stuff
VHS video tapes carry the same signal that an average home tv set can show (240 lines of video). The original VHS looks good on television but copies made from the VHS original degrade from generation to generation.
It is best to use one of the new digital formats for a master copy such as MiniDV or Digital8 which carry a signal of 525 lines, and at a higher bandwidth, so color and detail are improved. http://www.iilabs.com/info-pop.php/vhs-info
try to transfer directly to digital if you can

kidrocklive
2007-10-26, 05:54 PM
http://www.iilabs.com/info-pop.php/vhs-info
try to transfer directly to digital if you can

would a standalone dvd recorder be considered digital?

direwolf-pgh
2007-10-26, 05:59 PM
would a standalone dvd recorder be considered digital?yes :thumbsup

a much better solution than just a vhs>vhs2 copy

schmoe75
2007-10-26, 07:16 PM
Don't encourage standalone transfers, they suck. You can't control the bit rates so you ensure you've left enough room for LPCM audio. The best thing you could do, is WAIT until you have the capture card issue resolved, then get him to send the tape.

VHS > VHS & Standalone transfers are NOT recommended or endorsed by any of the staff here!!

kidrocklive
2007-10-26, 07:23 PM
Don't encourage standalone transfers, they suck. You can't control the bit rates so you ensure you've left enough room for LPCM audio. The best thing you could do, is WAIT until you have the capture card issue resolved, then get him to send the tape.

VHS > VHS & Standalone transfers are NOT recommended or endorsed by any of the staff here!!

Is it really that big of a difference that the average person is going to be able to notice a difference? I'm never gonna be letting the video out.

schmoe75
2007-10-26, 07:25 PM
If you aren't going to let it out, it really doesn't matter, but why would you want a 1st gen when you have the master available?

Like I said, just tell the guy to wait until you get capture card straight and do it right. Why waste your time and energy doing it wrong or 1/2 assed, u know?

Salva Veritate
2007-10-26, 08:10 PM
I've seen 1st gen copied that are barely discernible from the master, and some others that look like shit. It depends how well you copy it.

stantheman1976
2007-10-27, 08:49 PM
Do you have a MiniDV camcorder that will accept an analog signal? Run from VCR into your camcorder with proper A/V cable and record to MiniDV. Then you have a clean digital copy of it that won't degrade. You can transfer that to your PC at your convenience and do whatever you please with it.

kidrocklive
2007-10-27, 09:19 PM
Do you have a MiniDV camcorder that will accept an analog signal? Run from VCR into your camcorder with proper A/V cable and record to MiniDV. Then you have a clean digital copy of it that won't degrade. You can transfer that to your PC at your convenience and do whatever you please with it.

No I don't have one, my buddy does but it doesn't have the slot for accepting an analog signal.

kidrocklive
2007-10-28, 06:58 AM
does it make a difference in quality for a stand alone recorder if you have a dual layered dvd in there as opposed to a single layered one?

pawel
2007-10-28, 07:56 AM
does it make a difference in quality for a stand alone recorder if you have a dual layered dvd in there as opposed to a single layered one?
Video quality depends on the bitrate - the highest = the best, the bigger file. A standalone gives you a choice between LP, SP and XP mode. In the best XP mode video is recorded in 9000 kbps (constant bitrate, CBR). This bitrate is a insane nonsense if the source is a VHS because it has no such signal quality (a VCD resolution in fact) thus a standalone pumps only empty bites to a video file, making it bigger but not better. Such high bitrate is good if the source is HD video but not even for a standard quality TV signal which oscillates between 3000 - 8000 kbps (audio excluded).

It depends on the quality of a standalone recorder and how it set up SP mode but in most cases it will be quite enough for a VHS source. Video file should be recorded in variable bitrate, between 4500 - 7000 kbps. This may give you a bit over 90 minutes on a DVD disc.

If you want to get maximum from the VHS master, give it to somebody who can capture it through a dedicated digital card, i.e. Canopus (best). It not only has a control over a video bitrate but also allows to define audio format coding i.e. LPCM, which you never get with a standalone (lossy AC3 or MP2 only).

kidrocklive
2007-10-28, 01:26 PM
if I transfered the vhs to a MiniDV would that produce LPCM audio?

Also, if I used these ( http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7597745&type=product&id=1142297120588 ) in LP mode (for the 120mins) would it make a difference in quality than if I did SP mode (which is 80mins). I just figured the LP mode would be best so I could fit it all onto one tape.

pawel
2007-10-28, 02:09 PM
if I transfered the vhs to a MiniDV would that produce LPCM audio?
if it supports the format, most have AC3 only.

I just figured the LP mode would be best so I could fit it all onto one tape.
LP = low(est) bitrate, I think that most standalone have it well below 3000 kbps average. So, on larger TV screen you will see compression artefacts.

Limulus
2007-10-28, 02:31 PM
if it supports the format, most have AC3 only....


wrong. MiniDV always supports LPCM. just make sure the audio setting is at 16bit/48khz not the more bad 12bit/32khz.

also a lot stand alone recorders support LPCM in XP/60min mode.
so if you have a show less than ca. 60min a stand alone-transfer in XP/modus is the easiest to do, no need to go down in SP/120min modus cause the blank has the space and you will get less artifactacts in XP than in SP modus.

now if you even have access to a Dual Layer stand alone recorder you can XP-record up to 120min high quality.

kidrocklive
2007-10-28, 05:04 PM
wrong. MiniDV always supports LPCM. just make sure the audio setting is at 16bit/48khz not the more bad 12bit/32khz.

also a lot stand alone recorders support LPCM in XP/60min mode.
so if you have a show less than ca. 60min a stand alone-transfer in XP/modus is the easiest to do, no need to go down in SP/120min modus cause the blank has the space and you will get less artifactacts in XP than in SP modus.

now if you even have access to a Dual Layer stand alone recorder you can XP-record up to 120min high quality.

This is the standalone recorder my step-dad has

http://us.lge.com/products/model/detail/tv|audio|video___LRY-517.jhtml

It supports Dual Layer

direwolf-pgh
2007-10-28, 05:45 PM
specs for the LG LRY-517
Additional features of the LRY-517 include: Built-in NTSC tuner for recording television programming, DVD-to-VHS and VHS-to-DVD dubbing for non-copyprotected video content, 27MHz/10-bit video digital-to-analog (D/A) conversion; 192kHz/24-bit audio digital-to-analog (D/A) conversion, Black level adjustment..

Video recording format
Sampling frequency: 27MHz
Compression format: MPEG 2

Audio recording format
Sampling frequency: 48kHz, 96kHz
Compression format: Dolby Digital


to my limited understanding - the video capture is never an issue because of the VHS resolution limitation.
audio is the only variable on a standalone recorder.

from a spec standpoint - Id go for it.
I'm not a video expert by any means & if I were transferring a bunch of VHS tapes - would probably opt for this type of standalone solution.

I'm also curious what others would say.
other than 'you can do whatever you want in a computer' - that goes without saying.

kidrocklive
2007-10-28, 07:15 PM
Does it make a difference if the Standalone dvd recorder/vhs combo unit is plugged into the tv via an RF thing as opposed to the A/V plugs? I'd assume no since it's all on the same unit and the RF to A/V might just make the picture on the tv come in better but the actual vhs to dvd transfer wouldn't be affected by the input since it's all on the same piece of hardware. I just wanted to be sure though lol.

AAR.oner
2007-10-28, 07:45 PM
considering this isn't some rare VHS recording thats gonna be collected by huge numbers, and is just for your personal use, just do a straight VHS > DVD transfer...the TV plugin has no effect conidering yer goin from a VHS tape to the recorder...

as for whether or not you go to DVD5 or DVD9, depends on how important video quality is to you [there will be some difference but not what i'd call a drastic change in quality]...pretty sure that recorder will author to ac3 instead of LPCM, but again for your purposes it doesn't really matte [you might be able to change that manually]

**note that that particular dvd recorder will only author to +R dual layer discs

kidrocklive
2007-10-28, 08:10 PM
It's very rare, but I'm not gonna be letting it out, the guy would be mad among other things. Thanks for the info. I will probably do DVD9 just to the best that the dvd recorder can. Going through the settings I noticed stuff had PCM or bitrate for options but I didn't get to check yet to see if that was for playback or recording yet.

kidrocklive
2007-10-28, 09:05 PM
I just tried out the recorder using a DVD+R disc, finalized it and it plays fine on the recorder and my regular standalone dvd player but when I put it into my computer, it like locks up and can't read it :hmm: If it helps I noticed the menu for the dvd says "DVD+VR".

Edit: I noticed there is a VR and Video mode for recording but I can't figure out really how to set which method it records in. The manual doesn't really state how to set which method you record as, but that VR mode doesn't work with all players but Video mode does, which is what I need to be recording in.

KoolKat
2007-10-29, 05:26 PM
specs for the LG LRY-517

to my limited understanding - the video capture is never an issue because of the VHS resolution limitation.
audio is the only variable on a standalone recorder.

from a spec standpoint - Id go for it.
I'm not a video expert by any means & if I were transferring a bunch of VHS tapes - would probably opt for this type of standalone solution.

I'm also curious what others would say.
other than 'you can do whatever you want in a computer' - that goes without saying.


1st 1 to reply correctly chap ;)


--------------------------------------------

Standalones are fine for VHS,use S-VHS output on your VCR NOT Scart RGB

Standalones CAN have adjustable bitrates....you pay for what you get!

and what was the other one....
ah yes,VR is better for editing purposes on the standalone,quality difference is minimal.
Some authoring programmes will import VR directly,but you will be ok to DvD-Video them.DvD-Video is Standard and will play on all DVD SA's when you have finalized the disc.
Choose HQ 1hour recording to record if you choose not to Dual Layer them...you'll have to split the file in the copy to disc menu in the SA,then use 2 discs.

K_K

kidrocklive
2007-10-29, 10:39 PM
split the file in the copy to disc menu? That standalone doesn't have a hard drive so anything I record goes on the disc as I record it. VR mode seems to be useless to me since it won't work in my pc drive, which sucks since I was going to use the DVD+R Dual Layer disc to get the full show in XP quality without having to use 2 discs. There doesn't seem to be a way to do video mode unless I use a DVD-R which doesn't support DL discs.

KoolKat
2007-10-30, 07:28 AM
Ahh ,no built in job(never looked at the standalone you gave).
OK no biggie.You say that it locks up in your PC DVD Drive?
Go to here
http://forum.rpc1.org/dl_all.php
and see if there is a newer version of the firmware for your drive.If there is...update it and then try.

I'll be back

K_K

kidrocklive
2007-10-30, 08:23 AM
Ahh ,no built in job(never looked at the standalone you gave).
OK no biggie.You say that it locks up in your PC DVD Drive?
Go to here
http://forum.rpc1.org/dl_all.php
and see if there is a newer version of the firmware for your drive.If there is...update it and then try.

I'll be back

K_K

I did the update on my DVD Drive (LITE-ON DVDRW SOHW-1693S) but it still doesn't read it. DVD Shrink has it come up as no disc, other programs like IsoBuster and DVDFab Decrypter don't work either. Under My Computer the drives icon changes to show that there is a disc in the drive but you can't do anything with it (it did this before the firmware update too though). I don't know if it's just the media I am using (Dynex) or if it's my actual drive. I have used the Dynex stuff before though on regular DVD+R and DVD+R DL. They worked fine so I wouldn't blame the media personally.

KoolKat
2007-10-30, 08:49 AM
You say that your PC says that there is a disc there yes?.......just programmes cant see it?

OK
My Computer>DvD Drive> Right Click>Explore.

Does your Drive open to reveal the files/folders on the disc?
If so,drag and drop them(folders included) to the desktop...or a folder you make somewhere.

Working??

K_K

kidrocklive
2007-10-30, 10:10 PM
You say that your PC says that there is a disc there yes?.......just programmes cant see it?

OK
My Computer>DvD Drive> Right Click>Explore.

Does your Drive open to reveal the files/folders on the disc?
If so,drag and drop them(folders included) to the desktop...or a folder you make somewhere.

Working??

K_K

I tried that, I can't even right click on the drive because it locks up when I do making me have to open up the task manager in order to close the 'My Computer' window. What I meant by the icon changing is normally the drive icon without a disc in the drive just shows a picture of a drive, after I put the disc in, it shows a disc as the icon with the label DVD-ROM since a disc is in the drive but I can't do anything at all with it.

Here's a picture to show what I mean by the icon thing.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a392/kidrocklive/untitled.jpg

direwolf-pgh
2007-10-30, 11:00 PM
ok, so your computer DVD drive isnt DVD-VR compatible.
:lol: i think you owe us a copy at this point.

kidrocklive
2007-10-30, 11:49 PM
ok, so your computer DVD drive isnt DVD-VR compatible.
:lol: i think you owe us a copy at this point.

I guess not, but if that is the case then I'm confused because isn't a DVD VR disc in a folder like VIDEO_RM instead of VIDEO_TS? because I have had a show or two like that with the RM folder and didn't know what was up with it but my pc still read it, who knows.

KoolKat
2007-10-31, 06:09 AM
The RM folder is just something that Phillips DvRs make.It's nothing & can be deleted


Anyway,Hmm..yes,it does seem that your Drive cannot read VR.Havn't checked but that seems the likely case at this point.

OK.....long winded but can be sorted.
Make them 1 hour DVD-R recordings but for disc 2 start recording a bit before where disc 1 finished...15 seconds or so.

Now look for a frame accurate editing program..I use Tmpeg Editor 2 for jobs like this.It will export the file losslessly.

Right ...load up your 2 DVDs via the source wizard option and work out where to splice the 2 together.Hopefully you can work out what frame is the last frame to use ..to the 1st frame(for the 2nd disc).

When you've done output settings at "Automatic less encode as possible".
Now it will export losslessly the 2 as 1 long file.

Now use your authoring programme to make your Dual Layer.

K_K

PS:....looking forward to a copy :lol .....sorted direwolf ;)

kidrocklive
2007-10-31, 07:31 AM
The RM folder is just something that Phillips DvRs make.It's nothing & can be deleted


Anyway,Hmm..yes,it does seem that your Drive cannot read VR.Havn't checked but that seems the likely case at this point.

OK.....long winded but can be sorted.
Make them 1 hour DVD-R recordings but for disc 2 start recording a bit before where disc 1 finished...15 seconds or so.

Now look for a frame accurate editing program..I use Tmpeg Editor 2 for jobs like this.It will export the file losslessly.

Right ...load up your 2 DVDs via the source wizard option and work out where to splice the 2 together.Hopefully you can work out what frame is the last frame to use ..to the 1st frame(for the 2nd disc).

When you've done output settings at "Automatic less encode as possible".
Now it will export losslessly the 2 as 1 long file.

Now use your authoring programme to make your Dual Layer.

K_K

PS:....looking forward to a copy :lol .....sorted direwolf ;)

Much thanks, I will try that if it comes to that. I noticed circuit city sells a dvd-r dl disc so I will try and pick that up and hope it works. My friend seems to have a sony dvd/vhs combo thing that accepts those discs that I guess he just recently got so hopefully that will work. If not however, I will do what you suggested. Once again thanks to you and everybody for all of your help, I greatly appreciate it.

kidrocklive
2007-11-01, 09:05 PM
just wanted to say I got the stuff transfered fine, the ended up being an hour each so I didn't have to do any mixing or anything. Thanks again.