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snaimpally
2005-03-09, 02:21 AM
I have only been downloading using Bit Torrent for a few short months and already I am overflowing. I have been using CD Projects (Targus) 92 CD Wallets. I like these because the pages are detachable so you can resort and shuffle stuff without having to take the discs out. For some reason, Targus no longer makes them. I have managed to find some old new stock for now but it got me wondering as to how people deal with this massive storage problem.

I have been converting downloaded audio to CDs so that I can play them in the car and on my stereo. I understand many people store them compressed (shn/flac) on DVD-R. This is great for playing on the computer but won't play in my car. I am open to suggestions!

h_vargas
2005-03-09, 02:49 AM
i burn everything i keep to data DVDRs (Taiyo Yuden brand). if i want to listen to an audio cd, i have about a dozen HiSpeed CDRW discs (yes, the rewritable type) that i use for audio listening... they play in my home stereo and in my car cd player. when i want to listen to something else, i just re-use the discs. it's very efficient. i certainly don't want to have double as many discs as i already have.

i store my archived data discs in paper sleeves (not bought, just pieces of paper folded to completely cover the discs), in cardboard boxes. i know, i'm cheap like that. my money goes toward equipment and quality media, not toward storage devices.

well, that's how i do it. i'm sure there are plenty of other ways to do it as well... if you wanted, you could build a massive PC server/storage device with terrabytes of space. i'm sure it'd last at least a month or two. :D

rherron
2005-03-09, 06:54 AM
I am thinking of buying a Heavy Duty DJ-Case from DiscSox (two actually). Here is the link:

http://www.discsox.com/dj-cases.htm

I haven't seen anything that store CDs more efficiently. And I will just use inexpensive paper sleeves, not the expensive "Pro Sleeves" they sell.

Anyone have one of these? I'd be interested to know what you think. I don't like the CD book type holders. It takes too long to realphabetize after you've burned a fresh batch of shows.

I have about 1200 CDs and DVDs right now (plus another 400 studio/major label releases).

Rob

TheMamba
2005-03-09, 07:06 AM
I archive my shows to CDR or DVD. Office Depot sells some sleeves that are pretty cheap. Then I just put them in shoe boxes or whatever. Nothing fancy.

Hard part is keeping track of what do you and do not have so as to avoid the double download!

jcrab66
2005-03-09, 07:24 AM
I archive my shows to CDR or DVD. Office Depot sells some sleeves that are pretty cheap. Then I just put them in shoe boxes or whatever. Nothing fancy.

Hard part is keeping track of what do you and do not have so as to avoid the double download!


i do exactly the same thing....

Chachi420
2005-03-09, 07:48 AM
The best method for CD-Rs is Case Logic. They are more expensive than other books, but they are definitely worth it. I have never had another CD book last as long (and I've gone through several different cheaper types). I will never buy another brand. Currently I have about six 250 CD books that are completely full.

As for my DVD storage, I only use M-Lock DVD cases because they are unquestionably the best. I used to use paper sleeves, but those can cause fingerprints and scratching. Also, with m-lock cases, you can add your coverart from livedvdcovers.org!

RainDawg
2005-03-09, 08:26 AM
I always backup the original lossless files to DVD-R discs. Poke through the FAQ a bit, and you'll see that burning to audio CD and then extracting again causes potential audio problems. In order to make sure I can always reseed or trade the files, I keep them in their original form.

I put together about 5-10 sets and then create par2 files with around 20% redundancy so that the entire block takes up exactly 1 DVD. This way if one or more of the files ever become corrupt on the original disc, I can rebuild the set from the rest of the files....this makes sure nothing ever degrades or gets lost at time goes on and the media wears a bit. The DVDs get put in slim 3CD cases (http://www.sleevetown.com/triple-cd-case.shtml) to make sure they stay dust and scratch free. Each DVD is given a number, which is then recorded in my database, so that I can always find a show and see what disc it's on.

I find that this method is very effective and relatively cheap. At $1 per case and $0.50 for good DVD media, I can store about 20-30 shows for $2.50 (one filled 3-disc case of DVDs).

I also play the FLAC files on my Rio Karma for traveling in the car or taking to work, so I don't ever have to burn audio CDRs.

snaimpally
2005-03-09, 08:31 AM
I archive my shows to CDR or DVD. Office Depot sells some sleeves that are pretty cheap. Then I just put them in shoe boxes or whatever. Nothing fancy.

Hard part is keeping track of what do you and do not have so as to avoid the double download!
For plain paper sleeves, Sam's Club has them pretty cheap (500 sleeves for $5 I think). I use those when making copies for friends.

I agree with the part about keeping track to avoid downloading the same thing twice. I have been taking the info.txt file and using that info to create a 4.7" x 4.7" sheet that I slip in with the CD. I keep info, where it is available, about the band, musicians, date, location and venue, song list and time/length. I don't keep lineage though I do mention the source (SBD, AUD, FM etc). This is time consuming though but keeps things neat and I have enough to make a determination about a duplicate. If there is cover art, I just typically re-size the tray artwork and print it.

I like the DVD-R and CD-RW idea. But how do you keep track of what is on each DVD-R? Its harder to keep your collection organized since you have many different things on one DVD-R.

snaimpally
2005-03-09, 08:36 AM
I always backup the original lossless files to DVD-R discs. Poke through the FAQ a bit, and you'll see that burning to audio CD and then extracting again causes potential audio problems. In order to make sure I can always reseed or trade the files, I keep them in their original form.

I put together about 5-10 sets and then create par2 files with around 20% redundancy so that the entire block takes up exactly 1 DVD. This way if one or more of the files ever become corrupt on the original disc, I can rebuild the set from the rest of the files....this makes sure nothing ever degrades or gets lost at time goes on and the media wears a bit. The DVDs get put in slim 3CD cases (http://www.sleevetown.com/triple-cd-case.shtml) to make sure they stay dust and scratch free. Each DVD is given a number, which is then recorded in my database, so that I can always find a show and see what disc it's on.

I find that this method is very effective and relatively cheap. At $1 per case and $0.50 for good DVD media, I can store about 20-30 shows for $2.50 (one filled 3-disc case of DVDs).

I also play the FLAC files on my Rio Karma for traveling in the car or taking to work, so I don't ever have to burn audio CDRs.
What is par2 and is there a FAQ on how to create them? Can you provide more details on your database? Are you using Access?

I did not know the Karma played flac. I wish more mp3 players would support flac/shn.

jcrab66
2005-03-09, 08:37 AM
you can number the dvd's in sequential order and keep track of whats on each dvd. the most important thing to me though is what raindawg said and thats storing them in the original format, i only burn to audio disc the shows that i really want to listen to often but i always archive all my shows in the original data format...

RainDawg
2005-03-09, 08:50 AM
What is par2 and is there a FAQ on how to create them?

Par2 is a data file reconstructor. Basically, by saying that I create recovery volumes with 20% redundancy, that means that 20% of the files on the DVD can become corrupt (or refuse to be read from the disc) and I can reconstruct all of them with just the 80% that is still readable. I've had many times where just 1 file becomes unreadable, and then I have to toss the entire show. This ensures that won't happen.

You can read more about the par2 algorithm and download the software to create the files and reconstruct incomplete sets here:
http://www.quickpar.org.uk/

Can you provide more details on your database? Are you using Access?

I have been using a slightly tweaked setup of Music Collector (http://www.collectorz.com/) for several years, though I am right now moving away from it towards a custom-built mySQL database that I get with my web-hosting service. This solution is admittedly a bit "over the top", but it does allow me a lot of options for creating custom searches and storing data. There are other programs out there designed specifically for storing audio information, but Music Collector is the only I've really gotten deep into, and it always did pretty much what I needed it to.

You could just as easily set one up in access if you don't have access to a mySQL server and you're willing to invest some time up front to developing a robust table structure and query set.

Having some type of database certainly makes it easy to keep track of where things are in your DB...in my case I have around 200 DVDs full of shows, and I'd never be able to find what I need without some way of tracking what is on each disc.

I did not know the Karma played flac. I wish more mp3 players would support flac/shn.
This is another topic of discussion altogether. I've come out in support of the Karma many times on this board because of it's ability to play FLAC. The Neuros is either done or almost done FLAC support, but no other players have gone that route, and I find it discouraging. The iPod responded to their customers' desire to have a lossless audio player, but instead of supporting already mande formats, they developed their own closed-and-copyrighted format, which is bigger and less usable than FLAC. So iPod users need to convert from FLAC to ALC, and then back again for trading :(. The Karma is the only one that'll do all this right now, so I continue to support it to people who download shows from this site.

As for SHN, due to certain restictions in the license, there are no commercial players that will be able to play those files. Unless you come up with a homegrown firmware for an already existant player, this feature won't be coming out anytime soon.

snaimpally
2005-03-09, 08:59 AM
I am thinking of buying a Heavy Duty DJ-Case from DiscSox (two actually). Here is the link:

http://www.discsox.com/dj-cases.htm

I haven't seen anything that store CDs more efficiently. And I will just use inexpensive paper sleeves, not the expensive "Pro Sleeves" they sell.

Anyone have one of these? I'd be interested to know what you think. I don't like the CD book type holders. It takes too long to realphabetize after you've burned a fresh batch of shows.

I have about 1200 CDs and DVDs right now (plus another 400 studio/major label releases).

Rob
I was browsing sleevetown.com website which RainDawg had suggested and found a DJ type case with 400 sleeves for $50.
http://www.sleevetown.com/cd-storage.shtml

jraras
2005-03-09, 09:49 AM
Does burning a DVD from the files provided in a BT here at TTD, then ripping it via Decryptor into the VIDEO_TS etc. files have the same negative effect of burning .wav's from FLAC onto a redbook CD and then EAC'ing them back to .wav? Or does the DVD format address this problem so it is a moot point?

I guess the practical issue I'm trying to deal with is if I should burn data discs and DVD's of all my downloaded DVD's. Also, when doing a trade or b&p should one send a data disc with the contents of the torrent, or an actual DVD that is ready to be popped into a player and watched?

Thanks in advance (btw, I checked the FAQ, but couldn't find anything pertaining to this specifically for DVD, just stuff on audio).

best,
Jim :hmm:

uhclem
2005-03-09, 11:44 AM
I also play the FLAC files on my Rio Karma for traveling in the
car or taking to work, so I don't ever have to burn audio CDRs.
You still haven't tried out Ogg Vorbis? I seem to recall you once said your Karma can play Ogg Vorbis. You would be able to fit about 5 times as much music on your Karma and I seriously doubt you would notice a difference in sound quality on a portable.

RainDawg
2005-03-09, 12:27 PM
You still haven't tried out Ogg Vorbis? I seem to recall you once said your Karma can play Ogg Vorbis. You would be able to fit about 5 times as much music on your Karma and I seriously doubt you would notice a difference in sound quality on a portable.
Oh, I absolutely use OGG-Vorbis for shows I'll be listening to over and over. I have a large hard drive with my favorites encoded at quality level 6 (I found I couldn't personally tell the difference at around 5, so 6 was a safe bet). I also have most of my official discs ripped to the hard drive as well so that I can take them on the road with me.

I use FLAC for checking the initial download. It's easier for me to just put a freshly downloaded show right on the Karma than it is to make a conversion, download the OGG files to the device, and then possibly delete them later. It should be said that I only carry around about 10-20 albums on my device at a time. Unless I'm taking a long trip, I only put on what I feel like listening to for that day. I use it for FLAC because it's more convenient for how I use it, not because of any percieved quality difference between the two.

h_vargas
2005-03-09, 08:43 PM
i respectfully disagree with the comment that Case Logic cases are best for storing CDRs. i had a Case Logic a long time ago, several of them in fact, before i knew better. the plastic sleeves in those seem to scratch up discs quicker than if i just leave the CDRs laying on a table. unless maybe you just put the discs in the Case Logic case and never take them out...


RainDawg - i have a question about par2. i saw you mention it a little while back. i downloaded the program to create par2 files, and used it once or twice, but then my mind began wandering...

the par2 files create the "backup" data to restore unreadable contents on the data disc (DVDR/CDR), correct? well, what if the disc corrupts/degrades in a way such that part of the original files are unreadable (let's say 10%) and part of the par2 file(s) are unreadable (again, let's say 10%). wouldn't that mean that there's still come of the disc contents that will be completely unrecoverable? i mean, if some of the par2 file(s) are unreadable plus normal contents archived on the disc are unreadable, it seems as though the par2 system would fail in that scenario... however unlikely that scenario would be.

just trying to figure out if it's worth my time to use par2 for every archived show i have. i will be re-archving literally thousands of data CDRs (in SHN, FLAC, and a couple of other lossless compressed formats) all to DVDR to have a 2nd backup soon. so i'd like to go about my re-archiving/2nd backup as efficiently as possible.

ffooky
2005-03-09, 09:46 PM
The iPod responded to their customers' desire to have a lossless audio player, but instead of supporting already mande formats, they developed their own closed-and-copyrighted format, which is bigger and less usable than FLAC.

It's only half-closed (http://craz.net/programs/itunes/alac.html) now but still unnecessary.

diggrd
2005-03-10, 01:21 AM
Yes that would be a problem when using par2 files. I also have been considering using it when archiving, it has worked well in several cases of getting suff off the newsgroups. I wonder if a separate disc for the parfiles would work better? One reason I haven't started using it is the fact that I tend to stuff a bunch of shows on DVD and would need to figure out how much room is left for the par2 and set the parameters to fill the disc, but if I just put the data on a couple discs and the par2s on another I would then need to link them somehow. Maybe by using burntothebrim set for some set value I could always leave at least so much room to build parfiles, now that DL discs are an option though still costly this is more of an issue. Sorry to ramble on so, just tired from flying or sitting in planes all day.

RainDawg
2005-03-10, 09:09 AM
well, what if the disc corrupts/degrades in a way such that part of the original files are unreadable (let's say 10%) and part of the par2 file(s) are unreadable (again, let's say 10%). wouldn't that mean that there's still come of the disc contents that will be completely unrecoverable? i mean, if some of the par2 file(s) are unreadable plus normal contents archived on the disc are unreadable, it seems as though the par2 system would fail in that scenario... however unlikely that scenario would be.
You are correct, if 20% of the content of the disc becomes corrupted, irregardless of whether or not it's the actual files or the par2 recovery volumes, then you will be unable to recover. Par2 recovery is an "all-or-nothing" affair, and so if you don't have enough good files and recovery volumes to do it, then the only thinkg you're left with are the files that were good from the start. Just to clear something up: it doesn't matter if you lose actual files or par2 recovery volumes, but only the total amount of filesize of the lost files. If you lose more of a % of the total filesize than the redundancy you used when creating the volumes, you're screwed, regardless of which type of file becomes corrupted.

When I make the par2 files, I break up the entire bunch into about 10-12 different files, each containing some of the recovery blocks. This means that if 1 or 2 of them get corrupted, I still have a good deal of chance of complete recovery. In my experience, it's really only 1 or 2 files that can become unreadable on a DVD, and 20% is really overkill in my opinion, which is why I use it. Media is cheap enough that I want to make damn sure I can recover my files. You could go 30% or 40% if you were still afraid of losing more than that, with the obvious ramification being you'll need more space to store the discs. Honestly though, if you store the discs in jewel cases and are gentle with them when using them, they are reliable enough that 20% is big enough.

just trying to figure out if it's worth my time to use par2 for every archived show i have. i will be re-archving literally thousands of data CDRs (in SHN, FLAC, and a couple of other lossless compressed formats) all to DVDR to have a 2nd backup soon. so i'd like to go about my re-archiving/2nd backup as efficiently as possible.
I would say, if the show is worth keeping, it's worth using par2. Since you're at the front end of a major re-archiving project, do yourself a favor and do it right the first time. Media is very cheap. The chance that some of your shows will be partially corrupted in 5 years is pretty high, but with this method it drops it down to almost zero. Since you don't have a way of knowing ahead of time which shows you're going to lose, in my opinion it's best to be secure, especially given small cost associated with this option.

I would also consider doing things like correcting sector boundaries and adding file tags to all of the files during the transition too, but that's a topic for another thread.

RainDawg
2005-03-10, 09:15 AM
Yes that would be a problem when using par2 files. I also have been considering using it when archiving, it has worked well in several cases of getting suff off the newsgroups. I wonder if a separate disc for the parfiles would work better? One reason I haven't started using it is the fact that I tend to stuff a bunch of shows on DVD and would need to figure out how much room is left for the par2 and set the parameters to fill the disc, but if I just put the data on a couple discs and the par2s on another I would then need to link them somehow. Maybe by using burntothebrim set for some set value I could always leave at least so much room to build parfiles, now that DL discs are an option though still costly this is more of an issue. Sorry to ramble on so, just tired from flying or sitting in planes all day.
Another good solution, though not one I prefer to use. Since DVDRs can handle 4.7 GB of unformatted data, my method is to select around 3.7GB of shows that need to be burned. QuickPar will show you the total data size of the files you're attempting to secure and the data size of the recovery volumes you're making. I up the redundancy until it equals about 4.69 to make sure I get the maximum amount of recovery possible.

It should be noted that the entire sets need to be reconstructed at once. So, if at any point in my trading/listening/tinkering with my DVDs I find one unreadable file, I immediately extract the entire thing, run the recovery, re-create the par2 volumes from the newly reconstructed files, and re-burn the disc.

I've only had to do this once, but it's worth it if that one show that goes bad is a rare gem. I figure that over 5-10 years I'll have to do this 10+ more times, and I'd rather be secure than have to worry later about finding the show again....

Tahoetoeknee
2005-03-10, 10:25 AM
Here's how I keep my shows, I have maybe 1500 discs or more and it's just 2/3 full. Got it at target 15 bucks

Tahoetoeknee
2005-03-10, 10:26 AM
pick 2

Tahoetoeknee
2005-03-10, 10:28 AM
I do like them DJ cases, but I'd need a shitload of them...

rherron
2005-03-10, 04:56 PM
Tahoetoeknee, thanks for those pics. They have inspired me. We have Targets and I have $15. Great solution and cheap.

I have renovated two house built in the 1920s on my own. I'm pretty handy. I think I could make some nice dividers for the drawers -- maybe cover the 2x4s in black felt or something.

I'll figure something out. You've given me some ideas. Give me about a week and I'll maybe post some pics of my own.

Anyone else ever done anything like this?

Thanks,
Rob

P.S. DiscSox does sell nice alphabetical dividers pretty cheaply. They'd fit nicely in those drawers.

http://www.discsox.com/graphics/products/fai_div.jpg

snaimpally
2005-03-14, 01:09 AM
Does burning a DVD from the files provided in a BT here at TTD, then ripping it via Decryptor into the VIDEO_TS etc. files have the same negative effect of burning .wav's from FLAC onto a redbook CD and then EAC'ing them back to .wav? Or does the DVD format address this problem so it is a moot point?

I guess the practical issue I'm trying to deal with is if I should burn data discs and DVD's of all my downloaded DVD's. Also, when doing a trade or b&p should one send a data disc with the contents of the torrent, or an actual DVD that is ready to be popped into a player and watched?

Thanks in advance (btw, I checked the FAQ, but couldn't find anything pertaining to this specifically for DVD, just stuff on audio).

best,
Jim :hmm:
Good question. Audio files go from .wav to a compressed form, such as .shn, .flac, .ape etc. prior to being posted for download. But video files undergo no such conversion. The video_ts folder, with the vob (Video OBject) and ifo (InFO) files from the DVD are posted directly for download.

There is no intermediate encoding to a compressed form for video as there is for audio. Why? For one thing, wav is a very ineffecient format and can be comprssed 2:1 using a lossless format whereas video is in mpeg format and is already compressed. Mpeg video essentially compresses by storing only the differences between one frame and the next.

snaimpally
2005-03-14, 01:19 AM
pick 2
Thanks for the pic! That gives me some ideas. I like the 2x4 - nice touch. You might check Container Store, they have something similar but with little plastic dividers for dividing the drawer so that you don't have to use lumber.

snaimpally
2005-03-14, 01:33 AM
Tahoetoeknee, thanks for those pics. They have inspired me. We have Targets and I have $15. Great solution and cheap.

I have renovated two house built in the 1920s on my own. I'm pretty handy. I think I could make some nice dividers for the drawers -- maybe cover the 2x4s in black felt or something.

I'll figure something out. You've given me some ideas. Give me about a week and I'll maybe post some pics of my own.

Anyone else ever done anything like this?

Thanks,
Rob

P.S. DiscSox does sell nice alphabetical dividers pretty cheaply. They'd fit nicely in those drawers.

http://www.discsox.com/graphics/products/fai_div.jpg
Anyone used the discsox sleeve system? Looks intriguing ...

RainDawg
2005-03-14, 08:20 AM
For one thing, wav is a very ineffecient format and can be comprssed 2:1 using a lossless format whereas video is in mpeg format and is already compressed. Mpeg video essentially compresses by storing only the differences between one frame and the next.
Note also the MPEG is a LOSSY compression scheme. Depending on the desired bitrate of the output, more or less information will be discarded, but there will always be some. There is no analog to .wav/.flac in the video world, and so we use these lossy compression schemes with the understanding that high bitrate (like those for DVDs) is the best we're going to get. Once it's been encoded to DVD-quality MPEG-2, there is no reason to ever have it encur more loss than it has already, and as such our rules state that DVD is the standard.

lostboy
2005-03-14, 05:24 PM
I guess the practical issue I'm trying to deal with is if I should burn data discs and DVD's of all my downloaded DVD's.


Anyone have any thoughts on this? I've been wonderig myself and need to start burning (and backing up, if necessary) some videos that I've downloaded.

Also, thanks Raindawg for the info on par2, Music Collector and Karma. Amazing all that you can learn from one thread!! :D

ffooky
2005-03-14, 06:06 PM
Thanks for the pic! That gives me some ideas. I like the 2x4 - nice touch. You might check Container Store, they have something similar but with little plastic dividers for dividing the drawer so that you don't have to use lumber.

Forget Readers' Wives...it's Readers' Storage Solutions :)

buzzy
2005-03-16, 05:57 PM
A few more thoughts -

For flac and shn, data DVDs are a good way to go because of the capacity. You could spend a lot of time messing around with par2, but it's complicated enough that I really couldn't recommend it to many users. As it stands, it doesn't handle files and directories in a useful way.

Practically speaking, I'd say you're better off burning on good DVDR media, and keeping them away from bright light and heat and humidity.

Worst case, all the other mad music fans out there are like a huge backup system for you. That's why tapers and hoarders better share everything they've got stashed away - we're your backup system, people! If anyone doubts that, just look at all the seeds that are STG shows coming back around.

Ideally you want to store the discs in an archival sleeve. That generally means no vinyl, but polypropylene / mylar is hard to find. If you buy in quantity, Univenture (http://www.univenture.com/subsinglediscsleeves2.htm) makes some stuff, also check out the multidisc products. Others sell their sleeves too - you can one version from MicroCenter (http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0030277) for just $8 for 100.

When they make a poly sleeve that can hold all the graphics from a commercial CD at a reasonable price, I'll be seriously tempted to chuck all the jewel boxes I have, since I'm out of space to store CDs.

Or you can keep them on the spindles.

All video DVDs are essentially data DVDs - it's not like data CD, VCD, and CD Audio, with progressively weaker formats. So in theory if you burn a good copy on good media and store it well, it should last reasonably well. DVDs have stronger error detection and correction than data CDs.

But you'll still probably need the big backup system - other fans - at some point.

RainDawg
2005-03-17, 08:25 AM
Well, despite DVDs better error correction, having stored my discs in jewel cases away from light and undisturbed, I still get occasional instances where a disc has 1 or 2 files that are not readable. Since I never know if that's going to be a throwaway show that's easy to reproduce or something in low circulation that I really want to keep safe, I do use par2.

Par2 is not complicated at all. The only real drawback, which you've stated here, is that it can't recursively move through multiple folders to recreate a set. What that means is that, when doing a recovery, you'll need to move all of the files on the disc to a single folder, and then put the recreated files back into individual folders. This may be somewhat inconvenient, but it's hardly complicated, and taking those 2 minutes to do this is well worth it to recover a show that otherwise would have to be trashed.

Even with good media compulsively stored using safe methods, you're going to get discs that get read errors....that's just the nature of dye-based optical media. QuickPar is very simple software, and anyone who cares enough about a show to back it up in the first place should use the extra 20% of media space and ensure they can recover from errors.

Or, as you say, they could wait until it happens and then start digging through other people's lists to see if they can get a replacement.....

snaimpally
2005-03-17, 11:17 AM
Anyone have any thoughts on this? I've been wonderig myself and need to start burning (and backing up, if necessary) some videos that I've downloaded.

Also, thanks Raindawg for the info on par2, Music Collector and Karma. Amazing all that you can learn from one thread!! :D
Well the DVDs are the first thing I archive because then I can play them on my big screen etc. Plus you don't have to worry so much about creating a listing of all the files on the disc etc.

I am paranoid so for DVDs I make 2 copies - a master and a safety. I use one for playing and copying and keep the other in its sleeve, untouched. That way if something happens to the one I am using, I have an unused spare to make a new copy from. I also test each copy and make sure they play. I have found DVDs to be less reliable than audio CDs.

If I end up doing par2 backups I might burn 2 copies for added redundancy.

kurt_fire
2005-05-19, 03:19 AM
I was browsing sleevetown.com website which RainDawg had suggested and found a DJ type case with 400 sleeves for $50.
http://www.sleevetown.com/cd-storage.shtmlI just ordered one of these and a CD cleaning cloth. They have a 15% off code (BIG15) on their site now. Total came to $53.xx after $6.xx shipping to me here in Florida.

Thanks for posting this!

range_hood
2005-05-23, 07:27 PM
Storing DVD-Videos.
The video on a DVD is stored as data files.
I create a checksum of all the files and place the md5-file (and the info file) in the root directory of the dvd. That way I´m able to check the files after burning.

If the initial seeder included the fingerprints a lineage as:
VID(1)>STANDALONE>DVD-R(5) would be as redundant as
aud(1)>nakamichi dragon>sbpro>wav>shn(5) is.

Lineage could be:
VID(1)>STANDALONE>DVD-R (md5s from initial seed)
2c081ef0504d1368eaadd72e7ad4c8d6 *VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.BUP
2c081ef0504d1368eaadd72e7ad4c8d6 *VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.IFO
2c0336bd6317c5aed301c8b06e74989c *VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.VOB
c40df642fc2e034af9acbd3f79a9960c *VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.BUP
c40df642fc2e034af9acbd3f79a9960c *VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.IFO
82832ff188ba9be9bca696226a7339be *VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.VOB
a12886ee124479333c58afa0128c9dd9 *VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_1.VOB
48a8cdc45a2bd77a636ed21affb788d5 *VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_2.VOB
7fff6c6e40391c3c08e004008ba802b9 *VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_3.VOB
59298be733a9e5326b1221700e82de53 *VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_4.VOB
42852718dd653bcbeabdb2a9c415e402 *VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_5.VOB

md5sum (http://www.etree.org/md5com.html) is a tool to create checksums of data files.

How I archive:
I use dvds and already have masses of (data) cds placed in spindles and archive the content in myFindex (http://self-soft.de/index2.php) (german).
Once in a while I listen to the archived ones on my computer.
The cds in the spindles are really a pain in the ass for me.

How I´d like to archive.
The cd-rw <-> dvd solution sounds good to me but I´m really lazy.
It would be cool if a standalone and portable cd/dvd player could play flac files (but I havent found firmware updates supporting flac, etc. yet - has anyone out there??), as I hate detours - I´m very lazy, or too busy. Also I have problems to accept the lazyness or whatever it is, that people are not willing to include the few kilobytes of flac codec in their firmware. So if you want to call me a lazy frustrated bastard you could be right ;).

A rio karma would be great :cool: but is too expensive at this time. :(
I just want to drop the archived cd/dvd into my player with no "disk error" showing up and listen to the music.

squire23
2005-05-24, 04:14 AM
Personally I don't find storing them the problem but rather cataloging where everything is. Some of the program suggested are good but too 'CD' orientated. What I mean by that is, if any of you other guys are like me then you discs of Music Videos, single song live performances etc. I want to be able to catalogus all these in one database.

At the moment I'm trying to work on an Access database because just with TLH I reckon that at some stage someone out there will come up with the ultimate trader's cataloging tool & Access is the most generic program to convert from if that happens. Having said that, it's pain in the ass to try & understand :hmm:

jazzbo
2005-05-24, 11:49 AM
If you really want to get serious about cataloging, you might want to look in some discographical software. The difference is that discographical sessions concentrates on sessions for research purposes, whereas most software is (as you've found) about creating an 'inventory' and usually of actual releases.

For example, Brian is price-free and runs on Macs and Windows. I've considered buying an iMac just to run Brian.

But the idea of discographical software is to keep track of sessions which includes all of those one-off performances and videos, etc. Basically Brian acts as a front end to a relational database.

Note that the level of detail that it provides is total overkill for the non-anal:

intro:http://www.jazzdiscography.com/Brian/BrianDoc/intro.html
download: http://www.jazzdiscography.com/Brian/BrianDL.htm
why session approach: http://www.jazzdiscography.com/Brian/sessBased.html

Brian is a tool used by the jazzdiscography project and all of the links can be found off the www.jazzdiscography.com page, but there is no central page so that's why the multiple links above.

(If anyone knows an open source functional equivalent of Brian or another disco graphical program, let me know. The only one that is close is recdb, which was hot stuff in 1996, but hasn't been updated in forever and has some real limitations.)

bootray
2005-05-25, 03:49 PM
I haven't heard anyone suggest removable "Lock n load" hard drive
modules. Priced at $10-15, drop a 200+gig HD in there for less than
$100 and when you are done backing up the lossless files,
remove the harddrive put it on the shelf untill you need it again.
Harddrive prices don't have to drop much further to make it an attractive
competitor to cd/dvdr media.
Harddrives last a long time when you only use them for bkup storage.
bootray

coolman5001
2005-05-25, 08:16 PM
Jazzbo: Brian looks great, but I'm having difficulties entering my information. It keeps on crashing on me when I try to enter song information - how do you do it?

coolman5001
2005-05-26, 06:51 PM
Jazzbo: Brian looks great, but I'm having difficulties entering my information. It keeps on crashing on me when I try to enter song information - how do you do it?
..Nevermind, I figured it out.

donovana
2005-06-01, 01:49 PM
Hi folks. I have been downloading show for about 2 weeks now. I have already created about 10 cd's worth,at least. I have a question which I think I may already know the answer too, maybe I don't want to hear this answer, because I think I already know what it is going to be, but I figure if I am going to play this game, I want to do it right.

I don't have access to a lot of money, I am blind, am in between jobs, and am living on disability, and it sucks. Right now I am storing my cd's in spyndles, like the one's you get when you purchase blank cd's. Will this method work, until I can afford to purchase those cd booket you guys are talking about? Or will they become damaged somehow? If they get scratched, then why do they sell them in the spyndels in the first place? YOu would think they would already be scratched up when you get them home, since the cd's rub together when handeled the spyndel. I have noticed that you have to have a lot of resources to obtain and back up these shows like the big boys do, so to speak. I feeel like I am playing with toys, while everybody else is playing with the real thing with lots of resources, just frustrated, that's all, but I love this site man. :confused:

AAR.oner
2005-06-01, 02:11 PM
donovana--

i know a few collectors that still keep their archived discs on spindles...it's not the *best* method per se, but'll work...just make sure to keep the platic top on the spindle to keep dust and particles from getting in the discs...also, store the spindles a dark, dry place. the less light and moisture, the better...

hope that helps

Ted
2005-06-01, 02:23 PM
What AAR.oner said. Also, be sure to write down on the CD or make a label to tell you the contents of the CD. You can put a number on the CDs and keep them in order on the spindles so that you can find what you're looking for. I use a program called Broken Cross Disk Manager to catalog my CDs. It's really nice because all you have to do is insert the CD and it'll read the contents automatically and add them to the database.

If you take care of the CD's/spindles, it's an inexpensive and space-saving way to store them.

Another suggestion is to keep the ones you use most often on a seperate spindle.

AAR.oner
2005-06-01, 02:49 PM
What AAR.oner said. Also, be sure to write down on the CD or make a label to tell you the contents of the CD. You can put a number on the CDs and keep them in order on the spindles so that you can find what you're looking for. I use a program called Broken Cross Disk Manager to catalog my CDs. It's really nice because all you have to do is insert the CD and it'll read the contents automatically and add them to the database.

If you take care of the CD's/spindles, it's an inexpensive and space-saving way to store them.

Another suggestion is to keep the ones you use most often on a seperate spindle.

to further Ted's comment...

when writing on discs, i would ONLY write on this inside ring [the hub] as opposed to on the disc itself. sometimes, writing on the disc will cause problems later...just a side note!

Ted
2005-06-01, 03:20 PM
I didn't know that. Thanks for the tip ;)

range_hood
2005-06-01, 03:48 PM
I also use spindles. And if you take care as AAR.oner said you´re on the safe side. You might have found this sort of ring on the downside of a cd. It takes the surfaces apart. So unless there´s no dirt in between - no problem, as said.
Below: some sort of attempt of printing a cross section of a cd (inner part). ;)

AAR.oner
2005-06-01, 05:24 PM
here's an option...saw this in the new mailer, i usually don't like supporting musician's fiend, but this looks like is a good deal...says it holds a hundred jewel cases, so maybe 150+ in paper sleeves? only 40 bucks, so...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=dj/search/detail/base_id/101561

Five
2005-06-01, 05:41 PM
I also use spindles. And if you take care as AAR.oner said you´re on the safe side. You might have found this sort of ring on the downside of a cd. It takes the surfaces apart. So unless there´s no dirt in between - no problem, as said.
Below: some sort of attempt of printing a cross section of a cd (inner part). ;)
Is that a tiny plastic ring you're talking about or the fake plastic disc that is included?

I use spools, there must be a better way but it helps to conserve space.

sharpies are safe for writing on cdr/dvdr media I just write all over those things. maybe one day I'll live to regret it, but everything has been good for years now.

Ted
2005-06-01, 05:56 PM
Is that a tiny plastic ring you're talking about or the fake plastic disc that is included?

sharpies are safe for writing on cdr/dvdr media I just write all over those things. maybe one day I'll live to regret it, but everything has been good for years now.

I believe he's talking about the little "bump" that is actually part of the CD. I think he means that it'll keep the CD surfaces somewhat seperated. I agree, but I still don't advise spinning or otherwise moving the CDs too much. I plan on moving mine from their jewels back to the spindles sometime soon, to save space.

I use Sharpies too, but it makes sense that the solvents in the ink "may" screw with the ink layer on the CD, although I think it would be unlikely since the CD has a plastic coating over the ink layer. I never gave it much thought, but it can't hurt to be safe. I only write numbers on them anyway and they're only for archiving purposes. I have everything backed up on HDs too.

AAR.oner
2005-06-01, 06:09 PM
Is that a tiny plastic ring you're talking about or the fake plastic disc that is included?


Nah, i had originally made the suggestion that when labeling your archive disc, that you should only write on the inner part of the disc, which has no "data layer" to write to...

re: writing on the disc with sharpies...i think it really depends on *quality* of media...also if its an ink-jet printable disc its fine to write on with a sharpie [i should have stated that earlier]...Some silvers will have problems later on if you write on em, atleast it happened to me a few times

and why do they always include those stupid little platic rings anyway? absolutely useless :rolleyes:

Five
2005-06-02, 02:46 AM
you can take it or leave it, this is from the Sharpie homepage faq:
Is the SHARPIE marker safe for writing on CD's?
Sanford has used SHARPIE markers on CDs for years and we have never experienced a problem. We do not believe that the SHARPIE ink can affect these CDs, however we have not performed any long-term laboratory testing to verify this. We have spoken to many major CD manufacturers about this issue. They use the SHARPIE markers on CDs internally as well, and do not believe that the SHARPIE ink will cause any harm to their products.
http://www.sharpie.com/sanford/consumer/sharpie/home/faqs.jhtml;jsessionid=BGKQSFR2EJIICCQHUB2CGWQKA4QGIIY4?faqcode=1200

and why do they always include those stupid little platic rings anyway? absolutely useless :rolleyes:
lol... yeah

paddington
2005-06-02, 03:24 AM
Am I the only guy using RAID5?

range_hood
2005-06-02, 05:48 AM
Is that a tiny plastic ring you're talking about or the fake plastic disc that is included?
I believe he's talking about the little "bump" that is actually part of the CD. I think he means that it'll keep the CD surfaces somewhat seperated.
that´s what I meant.

I agree, but I still don't advise spinning or otherwise moving the CDs too much.
yep.
And storing in spindles could somewhat give you pain if you´d rather listen to the music than just archive. :drool

AAR.oner
2005-06-02, 01:29 PM
Am I the only guy using RAID5?

i was just looking at the new dual Xserve's at MacMall...hopefully in the next year or two, i can switch and start with a 1TB RAID storage unit...$$$$$$ :wtf: :rolleyes:

til then, TaiyoYuden's gettin all my money!