View Full Version : Neuros II and Flac

2005-02-14, 07:04 PM
I've been on the Neuros web page forum on flac suport and I got this answer but I'm not sure what they mean about gapless playback....

"The FLAC-support even for NI and NII is a work in progress, the gapless playback works with filetypes which meet the following criterias:

- don't have to fill full frames at the end (like mp3 does)
- don't have a too high bitrate (like everything ogg more than -q2 has)

These are my experiences, so with my main music collection I still have gaps, since they are -q6 ! "


I just want a protable player that will play my shows gapless.

2005-02-14, 07:47 PM
I'm not sure but this is from vorbis.com and it sounds as if q2 is pretty low-fi

For now, quality 0 is roughly equivalent to 64kbps average, 5 is roughly 160kbps, and 10 gives about 400kbps. Most people seeking very-near-CD-quality audio encode at a quality of 5 or, for lossless stereo coupling, 6. The default setting is quality 3, which at approximately 110kbps gives a smaller filesize and significantly better fidelity than .mp3 compression at 128kbps

2005-02-14, 08:31 PM
I just want a protable player that will play my shows gapless.

I don't know about all that other stuff, but I have heard that the only DAP on the market right now that does true gapless playback is the Rio Karma. I believe that RaindDawg is the resident Karma expert (or maybe Five), so I'll let them pipe in.


2005-02-14, 08:59 PM
Karma does it now. Neuros is still in the development stage. I think that everyone is suprised that more work hasn't been accomplished in this area, especially since everyone is looking for their "ipod killer".

I've been holding off buying a DAP for quite a while because the pricetags are high for the quality & features I want, and I have <cough> quite a few disks full of lossless files.

2005-02-15, 08:09 AM
I Rio Karma already is an iPod killer. It'll never do great on the broad market like the iPod because they have not marketed the fuck out of it, given it a flashy design, or catered a music download service to it. But they have made it rather feature-rich. It has, for at least the past year, played both FLAC and OGG perfectly gaplessly at any bandwidth. Since that time, no other player has stepped up and even challenged them. For this reason, people who trade shows and care about this kind of thing (the kind of people you find here) should look long and hard at the Karma.

I had honestly thought that the Neuros would have this problem licked by now, especially since they went open source. Maybe it's a lot more complicated than it would seem.....

2005-02-15, 02:58 PM
I'm surprised that gapless playback is affected by the ogg vorbis bit rate. It's not supposed to matter. Is it perhaps the result of an extremely slow CPU (or whatever it's called) in the Neuros?

2005-02-16, 08:45 AM
I have no idea....coding at the microprocessor level is beyond my knowledge of coding. It would seem that (based on the fact that all ALL the big players, including Apple, have failed to make even their own proprietary codecs play gaplessly) that this issue is much harder to solve than it would seem.

To me, this would be the first thing to fix, and a unit shouldn't even go out the door if it can't play the files seamlessly. But then I am not joe-average consumer either.

2005-02-17, 07:50 AM
You should look at the Rockbox project to port their open source jukebox firmware to the iRiver H120/H140 players. The iRiver port of Rockbox is well-advanced, and you can install it today on your H120 or H140 - but the new audio playback system isn't yet written, so there is no actual sound.

Rockbox was originally written for the older Archos HD-based portables, which did all audio processing via a hardware MP3 decoder chip - so all Rockbox had to do was feed that chip with MP3 files.

For the iRiver port (and in-progress ports to other devices without hardware audio decoders), the Rockbox developers are designing a new audio playback system - and a fundamental design goal is gapless playback. I believe that an audio playback system either has to be designed from the start to be gapless (like Rio did with the Karma), or otherwise it will never work flawlessly.

The basic design is two split the memory buffer into two parts - one part containing the compressed data waiting to be decoded, and another containing uncompressed PCM samples ready to be sent to the DAC. As long as the PCM buffer is never empty, playback will be gapless (subject to issues such as padding silence in the final MP3 frame etc, but that is a different problem with a different solution).

Rockbox on the iRiver will also feature probably the widest range of audio codecs available in a portable player - currently, MPEG (layers 1,2 and 3), WAV, Vorbis, FLAC, AC3 (aka A-52) and Wavpack decoders are actively being worked on by the developers, and this is before Rockbox has a proper audio infrastructure implemented.

The only restrictions on codec support will be that the decoder must be released under an Open Source license compatible with Rockbox (the GNU GPL) and that it is capable of running on the iRiver's 140MHz CPU.

The Rockbox developers are very open to feedback or questions - drop into IRC at http://www.rockbox.org/irc/ or browse the website.

Only problem is that the H120/H140s are now out of production, so suppliers are hard to find.

2005-02-17, 08:22 AM
If what you're describing comes to fruition, it just may unseat the Karma as the definitive portable for FLAC-heads like those who visit this site.

2005-05-29, 04:12 PM
I believe that RaindDawg is the resident Karma expert (or maybe Five), so I'll let them pipe in.
RaindDawg, is the Rio Karma capable of recording audio? Is there a line in/mic in?


2005-05-29, 06:25 PM
I dont think the karma will record anything except maybe voice, it does playback many formats though including flac...

2005-06-09, 09:14 AM
If what you're describing comes to fruition, it just may unseat the Karma as the definitive portable for FLAC-heads like those who visit this site.

It's taken a while, but Rockbox on the iRiver H120/H140 is now playing back gapless FLAC (and OGG and MP3s encoded with lame --nogap).

Also, no-one has yet reported any FLAC/OGG files that can't be decoded in real-time.

It's not quite perfect yet - but it's getting more and more stable and usable every day. I'm happily using it to listen to my FLACs.

2005-06-09, 12:28 PM
:wave: I'm using Rockbox on my ihp-140 too.
I'm loving gapless flacs and oggs.
Just need replaygain support and I'll be set. :D