Video Rule #8 Clarification

[flytomoon]

As I see things, some webcasts have quality superior to some of the old analog sources floating around here. What am I missing?

Asking for an exception so people can post Vegoose webcasts and anything in the future. Thanks.

The rule is:

8. Digital cable and satellite broadcast rips are permitted so long as a complete listing of the software and hardware used to make the rip is listed. No video webcasts are currently allowed.
Webcast videos captured to DVDs are not permitted at this site as the video quality of webcasts is currently not up to a reasonable standard. Digital TV broadcast captures are permitted, as long as you capture the original broadcast Bitstream through a DVB Card in your Computer. If the channel in question is encrypted and/or broadcast via a proprietory broadcast system and the original broadcast bitstream is not able to be captured directly, the use of a DVR type recorder, such as a Standalone DVD Recorder is acceptable.

[saltman]

The bitrate of the webcasts is VERY low. It is not comparable to the analog > digital transfers that are here IMO. They look VERY blocky and when rendered again/ enlarged to be in DVD format, they are almost unwatchable to me. All movies are required to be in DVD format ready to burned here so the raw files wouldn't be welcome either. I think dimeadozen would allow them though.

[AAR.oner]

^^^ what he said :D

[rhinowing]

just take it to dime

[4candles]

just take it to dime

Dime doesn't allow webcasts blown up to DVD, or re-encoded in any way - only captures of the original compressed bitstream may be torrented. Similarly, VCD->DVD conversions are banned. Dime doesn't even allow NTSC<->PAL conversions, which appear to be running unchallenged on TTD.

Is the other part of TTD rule #8 - that digital TV broadcasts must be captured directly and not re-encoded - still applicable?

In the past (I've been away from TTD for a year or so), this rule made pro-shot DVDs on TTD a standard above other torrent sites, but it doesn't seem to be enforced anymore - captures from DVB broadcasts made using standalone DVD recorders are back polluting the trading pool.

There also seems to be a general lack of source/lineage being provided on TTD regarding DVDs created from TV broadcasts.

If the bare minimum of source information isn't being provided (such as the name of the TV channel, date of broadcast and if the recording was from analogue or digital TV), it is impossible to know if rule #8 has been violated and (if so), that a better quality source could be available elsewhere.

[retired]

Is the other part of TTD rule #8 - that digital TV broadcasts must be captured directly and not re-encoded - still applicable?

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item#faq_videorules
If the channel in question is encrypted and/or broadcast via a proprietory broadcast system and the original broadcast bitstream is not able to be captured directly, the use of a DVR type recorder, such as a Standalone DVD Recorder is acceptable.

[4candles]

The torrents I've seen on TTD which violate rule #8 are from free-to-air (i.e. not encrypted) channels using the open DVB standard. So the condition in your "if" does not apply.

Are you also able to answer my query concerning the acceptance of a lack of source/lineage info on such torrents? Maybe this is why you're not banning them - you're not aware that these DVDs are from free-to-air DVB broadcasts due to the lack of full and accurate source/lineage information.

[STLBlues]

I will agree with 4candles saying there is a lack of lineage when DVDs are posted. Doesn't seem to be enforced anymore, and for sometime now. I mostly just see the video/audio bitrates posted and nothing else. If somebody doesn't know anything about the lineage...Pro-Shot > ? > DVD....works better than nothing. When I post something, I write down everything I know down to what kind of cables were used. I don't work here though.

[4candles]

Would a moderator like to comment?

I can only think of two reasons for the current situation - the rules are being unofficially relaxed, or the moderators don't have the time to deal with the infringements. Either way, it would be nice to know.

Or are STLBlues and I the only people that care?

[U2Lynne]

Everytime a torrent is reported for lack of lineage, we post in the thread about it or PM the user about it. However, if we don't get a Report, then it may easily be overlooked. So, if someone sees something that needs more clarification, please feel free to Report it and we will look into it.

[4candles]

U2Lynne,

Thanks for the answer, but it's not the lack of lineage that's troubling me, it's the acceptance of recordings from digital TV that haven't been made according to rule #8 - i.e. they have been recorded using a standalone DVD recorder (introducing a lossy analogue stage, followed by a re-encoding), rather than being a direct digital capture of the broadcast DVB MPEG stream.

I have reported one such DVD, followed by PMs to the video mods, and I've simply been ignored - hence my query asking if this rule is still being applied, which hasn't even been replied to in this thread.

[4candles]

My report was not based on assumptions, it was based on the fact that it was immediately clear to me from the video and audio characteristics stated in the torrent description that this was not a direct DVB capture, but was a re-encoding - the video and audio formats and bitrates were not the same as the DVB channel which broadcast the performance.

I also publically asked the seeder about the source/lineage in the torrent comments (referring to the rule infringements) and he confirmed this was a re-encoding and not a direct DVB capture.

I also told you that the torrent was lacking full source/lineage information and you didn't act upon that information either.

So I'm not sure what else you expected from me, especially as you never asked.

[4candles]

I see that your response to my torrent report was to change your rules to allow the very type of poor quality lossy re-encodings you previously banned:

8. Digital cable and satellite broadcast rips are permitted so long as a complete listing of the software and hardware used to make the rip is listed. No video webcasts are currently allowed.
Webcast videos captured to DVDs are not permitted at this site as the video quality of webcasts is currently not up to a reasonable standard. Digital TV broadcast captures are permitted, as long as the lineage is provided. The optimal way to capture is through a DVB Card in your computer with no standalone in the lineage, however, due to the cost involved to accomplish this, we will allow the use of a DVR type recorder, such as a Standalone DVD Recorder.

If cost is the justifaction for allowing recordings made using a Standalone DVD Recorder, then you have been misinformed. The very reason I started using DVB cards to make digital recordings of TV broadcasts was their price in comparison to standalone DVD recorders - a DVB card can be purchased for less than $50.

This is why I'm such an advocate of DVB cards - not only do they allow you to author DVDs which are bit-perfect digital clones of the original digital TV broadcast (i.e. theoretically perfect video and audio quality), they are also by far the cheapest solution.

Were there any other reasons behind the decision to start to allow standalone DVD recorders to be used?

[retired]

In a perfect world, you are correct. We would much prefer if every capture/transfer were done directly to the HD. However, this is unrealistic. Not eveyone has the option to do it this way currently.
Example:
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29164
In the link above, you will see that:
1, it was not a direct to HD capture.
2, it was reencoded (which HAD to be done in order to splice the 2 sources together).
There is no better source of this show in circulation and this is the only complete version of it. As the rule was written, this & many other jazz shows up here were in violation. Are we to ban/pull them even though they are the best/only source in circulation?
I think not.

Yes, this site is about optimal quality, but that is not always attainable. We feel as long as the lineage & codec info (which we do have to keep a closer eye on) is provided, then people have the option to download a show or not, by whether it meets their own standard of quality.

[4candles]

Thanks a lot for the answer - I now understand why you didn't respond to my report for so long.

I still disagree with your rule (TTD should be about optimal quality, and you can use other trackers if you have shows which don't meet the high quality thresholds), but I can understand your desire to share such recordings here.

Could I ask you to consider changing the wording of rule #8? As I mentioned, cost isn't an issue (DVB cards are cheaper than standalone DVD recorders) and I wouldn't want people to get the idea that DVB cards are an expensive solution. Maybe instead you could say that you allow standalone DVD recordings because the use of DVB cards (and similar) isn't yet widespread enough amongst video tapers.

Regards,