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View Full Version : Flac files- To save or delete?


tbirdbuzz
2006-09-06, 11:39 AM
Is there any reason to save flac files once it is transferred to a .wav? I just noticed how much disk space they suck up. I can't think of any reason to save them since I could take the wavs and run them thru multi frontend again to create new flacs.

U2Lynne
2006-09-06, 12:04 PM
Is there any reason to save flac files once it is transferred to a .wav? I just noticed how much disk space they suck up. I can't think of any reason to save them since I could take the wavs and run them thru multi frontend again to create new flacs.
Yes, save your original flac files. Just archive them to a DVD along with your other shows. If you burn the wavs to CDR and then try to make flacs from those wav, they will not be the same as the original flac files (the fingerprints won't match).

lehnhard
2006-09-06, 01:29 PM
Is there any reason to save flac files once it is transferred to a .wav? I just noticed how much disk space they suck up. I can't think of any reason to save them since I could take the wavs and run them thru multi frontend again to create new flacs.


I'm sure we can see FIVE here very soon, I'm interested in his reply too but not because of the disk space, I'd like to know this for a correct lineage.

FIVE, ages ago you wrote :

***Unknown mics & recorder > Master Cassette Sony CrO2-90 played back on JVC TD-W 209> JVC XL-R5010 stand alone burner > Fuji audio CDR(0) > Fuji audio CDR(1) > EAC > WAV > CEP 2.1 (retracking only, no nr, eq, etc. whatsoever) > FLAC (level 8)

be so kind and let me know

a) what is the difference to do it this way instead of connecting the tape deck / recording direct to the harddisk, is this way better for lossless quality or what's the reason ?

b) if this lineage is complete, you didn't know it better, right ?
see, weeks ago the same happened to me, but you asked for more info ?

c) so if I got it right, cdr (0) of this show is the digital master and for that a lossless (?) first generation cdr copy, right ?

Lossless first generation ?

d) that means your copy of that show labeled as cdr (1) is a second generation copy because the master tapes is boxed again, right ?


e) --> Example : <-- if I would join files of this - or any other - show together to one big wavfile because (again) I want to edit out blank space, commercials or do some other edits, is this wavfile ( copied all files one by one and saved as.. - not a software generated - merged - file) a lossy third generation copy and the - later burned - cdr is a fourth generation copy only, as it is a copy from the second generation copy and the "original" second generation files on the harddisk can now removed or better should be saved forever to create more second, third or fourth generation copies if needed ?

So that means a copy is a copy is a copy ? LOSSLESS or lossy ? And creating flac/shn/ape files from the edited version means to add another generation or is it a must to save them as wav files ?

f) --> Example : <-- If you have trasfered the music of any master-tape to the harddisk by connecting the tape machine direct to the soundcard usually you now have a big wavfile. To create single tracks you create a cue-sheet or in any other way you prefer. If you're ready you can burn a cdr using the cue sheet and if that's done, you start extracting the files back to the harddisk by using EAC ( or you can use cue-splitter and have the single files in the same directory very soon - ). Anyway, in both ways the "original" file(s) is / are untouched as they are still on the cdr and / or the big wavfile is still on the harddisk too. So the files we are now working with are lossless or a (first gen) lossless copy ??

FIVE, didn't expect that enjoying and sharing good music is such a difficult to understand process. Can you give me an example for the unknown lineage of a traded tape 20 years ago?

aud - unknown mics / recorder - unknown gen - traded tape from an now unknown trader (he moved & I lost his -mail- addy -) - played on XYZxxxxxx - stand alone burner ABC - cdr(0) for master copy of the mastertape

OR

if the tape was a third gen aud rec, we have now a fourth gen cdr master and the lineage goes like this

aud - unknown mics / recorder - unknown gen - traded tape from an now unknown trader (he moved & I lost his mail addy -) - played on XYZxxxxxx - stand alone burner ABC - cdr(0) for master ...... (4) - EAC - pc - edit - flac8 - md5 - FA - SA - screenshots - torrent - upload - seeding - you -

Who has the time to check that ? For writing all these "true" lineages you need another (virtual) pc connected to the other machine 24/7!

That would explain why so many people suddenly listed a former third (or unknown) gen tape as master CDR, another digitally transformation and a miracle too. We all say thank you to the lineage professionals : Thank you
it is difficult to understand but for some people it works.

g) so that means that every downloaded show is a lossless copy but with two more generations to add if you cannot save all the flac/shn/ape.... files and you have copy the files back to the harddisk from a cdr ??

Is that the secret behind the story that a few sites do not allow this way
any longer (d/l - wav - cdr - eac - harddisk - flac - u/l) ?

Are you sure you can believe in any lineage ?

thanks for your help

PS: I still enjoy good music ....... if I have any free time beside learning everything about lineage and generations.

A New Face In Hell
2006-09-06, 02:23 PM
A slightly inspired answer. Couldn't help but get reminded of the Judean Peoples' Front / People's Front of Judea.... :lol:

Five
2006-09-06, 02:46 PM
Is there any reason to save flac files once it is transferred to a .wav? I just noticed how much disk space they suck up. I can't think of any reason to save them since I could take the wavs and run them thru multi frontend again to create new flacs.
I'm not sure the reason why you need these files long-term on your HD as WAV files... if you need WAV files to use with some program (eg EAC audio cdr burning for personal use) then it would save more disc space to delete the WAV files and keep the FLAC files you started with. FLAC files can be self-tested for their integrity, are aprox half the size of WAV files and are playable on a computer using foobar2000 or WinAmp. So by deleting the WAV files when you're done with them and keeping the original FLAC files you are saving aprox 25% more disc space.

in the case that you wanted to delete the FLAC files and keep the large WAV files, you could re-convert to FLAC and lose any information in the tags (some FLACs have this, it makes the name of the artist etc show up in your player on your computer), and also would not be able to re-connect to the original torrent unless you used the exact version of flac.exe and correct compression settings and exact tags (or lack thereof). However, if the st5/ffp verifies against a newly-created FLAC set from those WAVs then no generation is lost and the audio is verified exact & is tradeable together with the small txt + st5 and/or ffp files from the original torrent.

reply to lehnhard coming up...

A New Face In Hell
2006-09-06, 03:04 PM
The reply gonna be even more epic than the question ;) :thumbsup

tbirdbuzz
2006-09-06, 03:05 PM
Thanks for the help. I keep them b/c I'm a packrat. I used to make a cassette copy of any live show that I received back in the day (and I have about 1500 shows/demos on cassette), but I'm getting better, I swear I am :-)

After I burn the music to a disc, I will try to part with the wav files and keep the flacs.

Five
2006-09-07, 01:37 AM
I'm sure we can see FIVE here very soon, I'm interested in his reply too but not because of the disk space, I'd like to know this for a correct lineage.

FIVE, ages ago you wrote :

***Unknown mics & recorder > Master Cassette Sony CrO2-90 played back on JVC TD-W 209> JVC XL-R5010 stand alone burner > Fuji audio CDR(0) > Fuji audio CDR(1) > EAC > WAV > CEP 2.1 (retracking only, no nr, eq, etc. whatsoever) > FLAC (level 8)

be so kind and let me know

a) what is the difference to do it this way instead of connecting the tape deck / recording direct to the harddisk, is this way better for lossless quality or what's the reason ?
the reason is that the taper provided me with the cdr(1) by mail and chose not to discuss the mics or recorder used at the show for personal reasons. I never use a standalone for transfers, but that's just my personal setup at home.


b) if this lineage is complete, you didn't know it better, right ?
see, weeks ago the same happened to me, but you asked for more info ?
I was asking you for more information in case you have it (you didn't). I also asked you for the required st5/ffp checksums to be posted, and am still waiting.

c) so if I got it right, cdr (0) of this show is the digital master and for that a lossless (?) first generation cdr copy, right ?

Lossless first generation ?
cdr(0) is the "digital master" in the case of the lineage from my seed you posed, cdr(1) is the next generation. if the media type changes, the cdr(0) is generally avoided and it goes straight to cdr(1). cdr gens are not as harmful as analog generations except that errors creep in. for example that badlands show you uploaded, I have a version which is 20 seconds longer with none of the diginoise & other glitches which you described as having to edit out. I commend you for listing your corrections so systematically (and for your generally good taste in music imo) but you also left SBEs on all tracks, so expect that one to be removed from the tracker in the near future. I will upload my copy which I'm sure you'll enjoy.

d) that means your copy of that show labeled as cdr (1) is a second generation copy because the master tapes is boxed again, right ?
when the media changes, the generation count for the different media goes back down, so its a little different from the old days... but basically, it went from cass(m) > cdr > cdr so you could call that 2nd generation in a sense. I could have called the final cdr I got cdr(2) but there was one cassette and two cdrs involved total.


e) --> Example : <-- if I would join files of this - or any other - show together to one big wavfile because (again) I want to edit out blank space, commercials or do some other edits, is this wavfile ( copied all files one by one and saved as.. - not a software generated - merged - file) a lossy third generation copy and the - later burned - cdr is a fourth generation copy only, as it is a copy from the second generation copy and the "original" second generation files on the harddisk can now removed or better should be saved forever to create more second, third or fourth generation copies if needed ?

So that means a copy is a copy is a copy ? LOSSLESS or lossy ? And creating flac/shn/ape files from the edited version means to add another generation or is it a must to save them as wav files ?
it doesn't add a generation per se, but the edits and software should be noted in the lineage, and if any samples are removed the seams of the tracks need to be adjusted to a multiple of 588 to avoid SBEs.

f) --> Example : <-- If you have trasfered the music of any master-tape to the harddisk by connecting the tape machine direct to the soundcard usually you now have a big wavfile. To create single tracks you create a cue-sheet or in any other way you prefer. If you're ready you can burn a cdr using the cue sheet and if that's done, you start extracting the files back to the harddisk by using EAC ( or you can use cue-splitter and have the single files in the same directory very soon - ). Anyway, in both ways the "original" file(s) is / are untouched as they are still on the cdr and / or the big wavfile is still on the harddisk too. So the files we are now working with are lossless or a (first gen) lossless copy ??
usually the term "lossless" is used to refer to a recording being free of mp3 or similar encoding in the lineage, so regardless of the generation (eg cass(20) or cdr(6)) it is still "lossless". If you burn it to cdr you are adding a generation. a generation in an undesirable copy which in some cases can't be avoided, in the example you give there is no need to burn it to cdr and a generation is added, of course cdr gens are usually not as harmful as analog generations, unless the errors start getting in there (like the badlands show).

FIVE, didn't expect that enjoying and sharing good music is such a difficult to understand process. Can you give me an example for the unknown lineage of a traded tape 20 years ago?
cassette? if you transferred the cassette, it would be ?unknown mics > ?unknown recorder > cass(x) as source, then if this physical tape was used by the seeder, he/she will know the method that was used to get the music from the cassette to FLAC and can provide that. In this case it is worthwhile to check if there are any better-sounding and/or known generation copies in circulation so as not to pollute the trading pool.

aud - unknown mics / recorder - unknown gen - traded tape from an now unknown trader (he moved & I lost his -mail- addy -) - played on XYZxxxxxx - stand alone burner ABC - cdr(0) for master copy of the mastertape

OR

if the tape was a third gen aud rec, we have now a fourth gen cdr master and the lineage goes like this

aud - unknown mics / recorder - unknown gen - traded tape from an now unknown trader (he moved & I lost his mail addy -) - played on XYZxxxxxx - stand alone burner ABC - cdr(0) for master ...... (4) - EAC - pc - edit - flac8 - md5 - FA - SA - screenshots - torrent - upload - seeding - you -

Who has the time to check that ? For writing all these "true" lineages you need another (virtual) pc connected to the other machine 24/7!
this site is a haven for ppl who do have the time, you do not need another (virtual) pc connected, not sure how that would be done.

That would explain why so many people suddenly listed a former third (or unknown) gen tape as master CDR, another digitally transformation and a miracle too. We all say thank you to the lineage professionals : Thank you
it is difficult to understand but for some people it works.
where is this listed??

g) so that means that every downloaded show is a lossless copy but with two more generations to add if you cannot save all the flac/shn/ape.... files and you have copy the files back to the harddisk from a cdr ??
if an audio cdr is burned from a FLAC set and re-extracted then that is not allowed here and will be banned from our tracker. those are the rules here.

Is that the secret behind the story that a few sites do not allow this way
any longer (d/l - wav - cdr - eac - harddisk - flac - u/l) ?
this is pollution in the trade pool and we are against this. it was the same at STG in this respect.

Are you sure you can believe in any lineage ?
no, you can never be 100% certain but often the liars are stupid and get caught.

thanks for your help
you're welcome

PS: I still enjoy good music ....... if I have any free time beside learning everything about lineage and generations.
I agree that you have good taste in music, but strongly suggest that you listen more and talk less. In the time it took you to type this gigantic convoluted post you could have learned how to do something very simple: generate a goddam flac fingerprint :lol:

Ausbrucefan
2006-09-07, 02:54 AM
lol there's some long drawn out replies there, i'm not going to waste an hour reading them (no offense to the posters,). my take on it is this. cdr's don't last as long as they once did. (at least not the newer brands, well for me at least). so whenever i download a springsteen concert. i put it straight onto a dvd print up a inlay for my dvd case, so i know whats on it, and then once i've done that i'll make sure they copy to hd and decode...

i'm also doing this with shows i recieve as cdr in trades. can't stress this more...backup backup backup lol