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View Full Version : MPEG-4 Audio Lossless is served


ffooky
2005-12-29, 12:42 PM
Some details about the nuts and bolts here (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=40124&st=0) including a link to the official site (though the thread is much more enlightening).

I'm hoping an shntool (and thus TLH & xACT) format module appears. Might finally bring lossless to the masses, though I'm sure some kind of DRM would have to raise its ugly head first.

gsmyth79
2005-12-29, 02:28 PM
This is really cool. Do you think this will eliminate the need for AC3 audio in DVDs?

Gizby
2005-12-29, 02:38 PM
Probably not DVDs. Unless this new format has some super impressive compression, it's still better to sacrifice some audio space for more video quality given the limited space. Blu-Rays / HD-DVDs though, are a different story. I'm hard pressed to think why they wouldn't use it there.

Five
2005-12-29, 02:59 PM
this is a step forward, anyways. its always boggled my mind that there hasn't been any lossless compression scheme available for the audio for video.

alchemy71085
2005-12-29, 03:26 PM
Probably not DVDs. Unless this new format has some super impressive compression, it's still better to sacrifice some audio space for more video quality given the limited space. Blu-Rays / HD-DVDs though, are a different story. I'm hard pressed to think why they wouldn't use it there.

I disagree. LPCM audio rules. Period.

gsmyth79
2005-12-29, 03:38 PM
I disagree. LPCM audio rules. Period.
Why?

ffooky
2005-12-29, 03:42 PM
Why?

Well, everyone knows that WAV/AIFF sound better than FLAC/APE/SHN and the 50% extra size comes in useful as well ;)

"Take 50% less-sized exactly lossless equivalent sound into the DVD with me ?....I just want to Watch 'n' Go !"

alchemy71085
2005-12-29, 03:44 PM
Why?

Haven't we been through this already?

willndmb
2005-12-29, 05:39 PM
99% of the people can't tell the difference anyway--and 99% of those who tell you they can can't either

alchemy71085
2005-12-29, 05:49 PM
99% of the people can't tell the difference anyway--and 99% of those who tell you they can can't either

This is entirely untrue!!

I listen to music and DVDs with headphones, and the difference is strikingly apparent between ac3 and LPCM!

alchemy71085
2005-12-29, 06:07 PM
Actually forget the headphones, I can tell with regular speakers too.

The human ear is capable of hearing frequncies up to 20 Hz. So when a lossy codec compresses a wave form and takes out all of the frequencies over 15 or 16 Hz, it becomes obvious very quickly that something is missing from the sound.

Gizby
2005-12-29, 06:10 PM
I disagree. LPCM audio rules. Period.
Hey, I like it as much as the next person, but how many major motion pictures have you seen that use that? I've seen one, and that was a 75 minute B&W film. Granted, most film releases today go the 5.1 route to stay more true to the multichannel source. For DVDs in this community, I would rather they all have LPCM audio (well, most of the time). But for commercial DVD releases, I don't mind losing some audio quality. Four to eight gigs is appallingly small for video already. When the next generation comes into full swing, hopefully they'll adopt the lossless format.

In conclusion, :banana:

alchemy71085
2005-12-29, 06:26 PM
Hey, I like it as much as the next person, but how many major motion pictures have you seen that use that? I've seen one, and that was a 75 minute B&W film. Granted, most film releases today go the 5.1 route to stay more true to the multichannel source. For DVDs in this community, I would rather they all have LPCM audio (well, most of the time). But for commercial DVD releases, I don't mind losing some audio quality. Four to eight gigs is appallingly small for video already. When the next generation comes into full swing, hopefully they'll adopt the lossless format.

In conclusion, :banana:

Yea, I find it appalling that Microsft and Apple tries to shove the .mp3 down our throat. Hasn't anyone noticed that there is a drastic drop in audio quality? Are people really that willing to take quantity over quality when it comes to audio and music? Again, ridiculous.

I live in hope that one day we will come up with new smaller technologies that support large amounts of space, and thus a return will be made to lossless audio formats.

I keep it lossless and I think it's well worth it!

Gizby
2005-12-29, 06:33 PM
Are people really that willing to take quantity over quality when it comes to audio and music? Again, ridiculous.
One word: iPod.

Most people I talk to couldn't care less if all their music were any higher than a 192kbps mp3. A little bit of my soul dies each time. I can see their point in that most can't discern the difference when using headphones, but I'll never crack.

And neither will he ---> :banana:

Five
2005-12-29, 06:42 PM
Yea, I find it appalling that Microsft and Apple tries to shove the .mp3 down our throat. Hasn't anyone noticed that there is a drastic drop in audio quality? Are people really that willing to take quantity over quality when it comes to audio and music? Again, ridiculous.

I live in hope that one day we will come up with new smaller technologies that support large amounts of space, and thus a return will be made to lossless audio formats.

I keep it lossless and I think it's well worth it!
I agree

I can't even believe there is any debate about this

ac3 is better than mp3, true, but 99% can't tell the diff between lossy and lossless of any type. we're supposed to have better ears here, this is the traders' den for crissake.

Gizby
2005-12-29, 06:53 PM
I can't even believe there is any debate about this
Wait, there was a debate? I'm in favor of lossless audio whenever and hope that this new audio format makes its way into the next wave of movie discs. I just doubt that they'll make it onto current DVDs for movies since they're already pressed for space.

No debate. Don't make me bring out the banana again.

Chachi420
2005-12-29, 07:05 PM
this is a step forward, anyways. its always boggled my mind that there hasn't been any lossless compression scheme available for the audio for video.
Is PCM 48 kHz not lossless?? :confused:

U2Lynne
2005-12-29, 07:09 PM
No debate. Don't make me bring out the banana again.
Hey, I like that banana! Bring it out anytime you like. :banana:
I like this guy too :dance:
Is PCM 48 kHz not lossless?? :confused:
Yeah, that is lossless. But this thread was started about a new lossless *compression* for video. Like the shn/flac of the video world. Of course, we got a bit sidetracked along the way, but doesn't that always happen? :)

Chachi420
2005-12-29, 07:10 PM
Actually forget the headphones, I can tell with regular speakers too.

The human ear is capable of hearing frequncies up to 20 Hz. So when a lossy codec compresses a wave form and takes out all of the frequencies over 15 or 16 Hz, it becomes obvious very quickly that something is missing from the sound.
actually, a good ear can hear down to 16 Hz or even down to 12 Hz. My Sony Studio Professional headphones go down to 10 Hz and at that point it just sounds like 10 beats per second and not really any sort of 'sound'. ;) I really recommend those Sony's btw :cool:

Chachi420
2005-12-29, 07:11 PM
Of course, we got a bit sidetracked along the way, but doesn't that always happen? :)
I'm never on track! I wish you and yours all the best for 2006, Lynne :wave:

U2Lynne
2005-12-29, 07:19 PM
I'm never on track! I wish you and yours all the best for 2006, Lynne :wave:
Thanks, Chachi! I hope you and those you love have an awesome 2006 also.

Five
2005-12-29, 08:38 PM
Is PCM 48 kHz not lossless?? :confused:
well, it is lossless, just not compressed & lossless!

:bang:

so hopefully we're on the same page now... I'll put away my bananna!

:cheers:

alchemy71085
2005-12-29, 09:55 PM
actually, a good ear can hear down to 16 Hz or even down to 12 Hz. My Sony Studio Professional headphones go down to 10 Hz and at that point it just sounds like 10 beats per second and not really any sort of 'sound'. ;) I really recommend those Sony's btw :cool:

I have the Sony MDR-V150s. What do you have?

Also, great to see that there is no debate over such an already pre-determined topic!

Even the banana is now dancing! :dance:

He's doing the "Lossless Audio Dance" or something like that. :cool:

brimstone
2005-12-30, 06:42 AM
Probably not DVDs. Unless this new format has some super impressive compression, it's still better to sacrifice some audio space for more video quality given the limited space. Blu-Rays / HD-DVDs though, are a different story. I'm hard pressed to think why they wouldn't use it there.

The lossless codecs HD DVD will support are 2 channel LPCM, 2 channel MLP and DTS HD. The audio codecs for Blu-ray has not yet been decided.

I'm a bit suprised that HD DVD will not support multichannel LPCM/MLP like DVD-Audio.

Sources:
http://www.dvdforum.org/images/Forum_HD_DVD_Universal_24.pdf
http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#1.9

alchemy71085
2005-12-30, 09:21 AM
The lossless codecs HD DVD will support are 2 channel LPCM, 2 channel MLP and DTS HD. The audio codecs for Blu-ray has not yet been decided.

I'm a bit suprised that HD DVD will not support multichannel LPCM/MLP like DVD-Audio.

Sources:
http://www.dvdforum.org/images/Forum_HD_DVD_Universal_24.pdf
http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#1.9

I'll still take the 2 channel LPCM over the the other ones anyday.

aegert
2005-12-31, 07:37 AM
Hey
Until Storage capabilities meet requirements on portable media MP3 etal will be around...

I still have my archive of WAV, FLAC & SHN but I travel with a 60GB iPod... It gives me a the flexibility to have yes, quantity... With the advent of technology like juke joint and affordable TByte drives my home will soon be loss less again but for the foreseeable future my car my train and plane will be 192kbs.... These are trade offs but having them is what makes this stuff usable everywhere.

I have a demo of an environment where I can stream FLAC to my cell phones real player soon the iPod in its current form will go away.... Hey the 8 track was ubiquitous that quality sucked then came cassette...Dat...cd...hdcd...dvd-a It will all catch up again but the days of 2 channel critical listening are going the wayside of the 5.x It is a storage issue.

A

Limulus
2005-12-31, 08:08 AM
about video capturing from analog sources it would be nice to get an quality upgrade for DV format which is about 5/1 compression allready. fair prices for that equiment, available for the general public/for masses etc.