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guygee
2005-08-08, 10:48 PM
Maybe I missed this on the FAQ, or maybe I'm just too picky or something, but it drives me crazy to look at my hard drive and find a torrent folder named "My Seed (4)" (not downloaded from Trader's Den, but still...). One has to admit, etree has a good system for naming directories/folders, but it doesn't fill the needs of the wider lossless torrenting community. Could we agree to to some sort of standard?

For one, maybe we can agree that we would like our folders to line up with the following precedence order:

1)Artist
2)Date (implies venue)
3)Show (for multiple shows on the same date)
4)Source
5)Version
6)Encoding

Spaces screw things up, so maybe we could agree to have none?
UsingCapsAsDelimitersWorksPrettyWell.

I am just throwing this out to encourage discussion, but I suggest the following etree-like format:

Artistyyyy-mm-dd[a,b or Early-Late].Source.Taper/Seeder/SourceSiteTorrent#_SpecialNotes.flacf/shnf

For commonly torrented artists, letís all agree on something: is it bd, Dylan, BobDylan? Letís make a list of suggested standards.

Use a for Early, b for Late, or just spell it out.

Date implies a venue, venue should be listed in the info file, so should we include it? If so, I suggest it go under "Special Notes" (see below).

For Source, we have sbd, aud, fm, preFM, ??? (what do we call 192 kb/s satellite?), and I suppose we might add audMD for audience mini-disc, or something like audNAK300 if we used some cool recording hardware, but whatever it is, we should agree on it and make a list of acceptable types. AudMaster and AudFirstGen would be cool too. Again, letís make a list

For Version, it could be the taper's handle if he/she seeded it, or the seeder, or better, where we downloaded it from. Dime uses torrent #'s, so we could say Dimennnnnnn. Trader's Den, we could use the thread number, so we could add to the recent 1966 Jewels and Binoculars (26 CD Set).flacf the notation:TD7011, since that was the thread number (? or is it a torrent number after all?)

For "Special NotesĒ we could include the bootleg name and transfer, eg.
"JewelsAndBinoculars-EACSilver" or something similar. After all, this boot was also seeded to STG, EZT, and who knows where else, and I would like to know if I have the version EAC'ed from silver and from a reliable source rather than just some unknown stuff.

Also, for Special Notes, we could include any special guests that appeared, like withGarcia or just wGarcia, since that information can really make a difference in choosing a show you never heard before...

Another special note might be like "J'sRemaster", so if we know "J" does good work, we will want the show, (or otherwise, NOT).

My stealth motive for this rant is that I would simply like all of my torrent files to line up, burn them to DVD in order, then strip the music out on the hard drive, move the leftover folders to a common folder, cut-n-paste the folder names, and make a really nice little html tradelist that links to infofiles, md5/st5/ffp's and artwork. The way it is now, I spend hours searching the torrent sites for information.

Also, we probably have to take into account that some peopleís hardware may still have a relatively small limit on directory name and filename lengths. I may be spoiled, my limit is 256 characters that I can burn to data DVDs. What are some of the older limits we may have to accommodate? (on the other hand, if you are still running DOS 3.1, please upgrade. I am not going back to the 8.3 limit).

Is anyone with me here, or is this just too much buzzkill?

jcrab66
2005-08-08, 10:52 PM
fuck naming conventions, you dont like how its named then go out and tape and seed shows. then you can name them how you want....

guygee
2005-08-08, 10:56 PM
fuck naming conventions, you dont like how its named then go out and tape and seed shows. then you can name them how you want....

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of, last thing we want to do is scare off seeders.
So go ahead and name your seed MyEgoBoost(101). I guess the rest of us will just have to deal with it.

jcrab66
2005-08-08, 11:02 PM
Yeah, that's what I was afraid of, last thing we want to do is scare off seeders.
So go ahead and name name your seed MyEgoBoost(101). I guess the rest of us will just have to deal with it.

first of all fuck wad, this has nothing to do with ego, it has to do with the way myself and anyone else who tapes a show wants to do it. Like I said, go tape some shows and name them how you want... Whats wrong with that idea? Then you can name your seed ImAFuckingLeech(101) and I guess the rest of us would just have to deal with it...

Five
2005-08-08, 11:12 PM
man on a rampage :lol

you can name your torrents/folders however you want. I like guygee's suggestions, its the etree format and pretty much what I use when I seed shows. For FLAC I'll use "flac16" instead of "flacf" (flac24 for 24bit which you won't see me seeding). I guess you could also use ape16/ape24 since that format supports 24bit but I haven't seen a 24bit APE seed yet so I just stick with "apef".

guygee
2005-08-08, 11:17 PM
Hey jcrab, What's up with the attitude? How do you know what I have to seed?
I am just trying to make some suggestions, is this a sore topic with you?

I've never downloaded ANY shows from you, nor will I ever, our tastes are different, so don't call me a leech.

guygee
2005-08-08, 11:46 PM
go tape some shows and name them how you want... Whats wrong with that idea?

What's wrong with the idea is that if you pick some simple torrent file name and somebody goes off and MP3's it and uses the same simple name, people might get confused when trading shows.

Is that what you want?

guygee
2005-08-08, 11:59 PM
P.S. jcrab, if you upload shows and use stupid torrent names, people are just going to rename them anyways. Then they will probably reseed them the way they want. That is how it happened on etree, nobody cared what the taper wanted to name the show anymore, he was out-of-the-loop, it is the careful collectors who now mostly rule the etree world. So will it be here, eventually.

AAR.oner
2005-08-09, 12:21 AM
werd! brawl in technobabble :lol i agree with you guy, it would be nice...i am pretty obsessive about show info...but as j said, if he's seeding it, he'll do what he wants...there's alot of tapers who tape for alot of reasons...same with collectors.

put it this way, you seed something here with ^^^that naming system, no one's gonna complain ;) the audiophiles will sing yer praises...the noobs will ask "what does ______ mean?"...and j will still be seeding shows in whatever manner he wants :D

but seeding audio from 192 kb/s satellite is just plain wrong imo

feralicious
2005-08-09, 01:08 AM
man on a rampage :lol

you can name your torrents/folders however you want. I like guygee's suggestions, its the etree format and pretty much what I use when I seed shows. For FLAC I'll use "flac16" instead of "flacf" (flac24 for 24bit which you won't see me seeding). I guess you could also use ape16/ape24 since that format supports 24bit but I haven't seen a 24bit APE seed yet so I just stick with "apef".What does that little f mean? I thought that meant it was shared on Further.

guygee
2005-08-09, 01:32 AM
What does that little f mean? I thought that meant it was shared on Further.

Just shorthand for flacfile(s). Five's suggestion to use flac16 or flac24 is more up-to-date. So I'm going to adopt it. I don't think I will develop AIDs or anything if a use the new standard.

feralicious
2005-08-09, 03:04 AM
Um, are you sure? That doesn't really make sense since there's folders with shnf and as Five posted, apef. So there's no flac files there.

paddington
2005-08-09, 03:33 AM
apef = apefiles

see?

Five
2005-08-09, 09:29 AM
I read somewhere on etree that the little "f" means "folder", as in apef = APE folder. Files works, too.

feralicious
2005-08-09, 10:45 AM
Okay, that's pretty dumb. Isn't that stating the obvoius? :hmm:

You can clearly see it's a folder, and you wouldn't have a folder unless you had files inside of it. Duh!

I never did like that little f, now I'm definitely going to remove it from everything! :lol

ffooky
2005-08-09, 11:21 AM
I've always presumed the "f" was there because otherwise you'd have a folder with a file extension.

AAR.oner
2005-08-09, 11:22 AM
i like the flac16 or flac24 idea...however what then for 44.1kHz and 48kHz [and even 96kHz]...flac16_441 and flac24_48?

i guess my real issue is: how much info is *too much* in regards to a folder name? its all in the info text afterall...

guygee
2005-08-09, 12:18 PM
i guess my real issue is: how much info is *too much* in regards to a folder name? its all in the info text afterall...

Probably just enough so that others reading the folder name can recognize what the show is. This whould include some type of "version" ID, since the same show can exist in many versions, even if taped by the same taper. Why else would Trader's Den care so much about the difference between "from silver" and "cdrx"? Many people don't know their burner's offsets, and at best most only know the combined offset. So if you go audio->audio, the combined offset needs to be used, but if you go audio-> lossless compressed, you nead the read offset only. With my last drive, it was easy to find the combined offset by using the "compare waves" feature in EAC, but there are infinite linear combinations of the read and write offsets that can produce the same combined offset. The only way I could think of finding out my read offset was by trial and error, comparing md5's on successive burns. How many people go through that effort? So digital pollution is a definite problem, and versioning is necessary. (This is the reason everyone should always archive their audio and video showas on "Data" CDs or "Data" DVDs, then burn seperate to listen/watch).

There may be many versions of the same show out there, and we can't give them all the same folder name. That is why I posted on this topic at all, to try and get some consensus on how to do this.

One problem with using the torrent site/thread number ID is that the original seeder doesn't know what will be assigned until they seed, so they can't use it to ID their show, and everyone else would have to add it. It would be a nice feature of the tracker if some unique ID could be tacked onto the folder name, to forever "stamp" that torrent as being "version x downloaded from site y".

etree has versioning, zappateers has some form of it, and I've seen some people using some other versioning system (in some info files i've seen something like "please use LLB #715 to identify this show", I can't remember if it is LLB(?) or something else, I need to look that up again and look into it further).

Tapers don't have to worry about it, if they only listen to their own Master shows or only trade first gen with their taper friends, right? But if they trade freely, then they should be concerned too! With their special knowledge and the experience with music quality they "should" have gained by taping, I would think that a "good" taper would be most concerned of all.

freezer
2005-08-09, 01:21 PM
............There may be many versions of the same show out there, and we can't give them all the same folder name. That is why I posted on this topic at all, to try and get some consensus on how to do this.

One problem with using the torrent site/thread number ID is that the original seeder doesn't know what will be assigned until they seed, so they can't use it to ID their show, and everyone else would have to add it. It would be a nice feature of the tracker if some unique ID could be tacked onto the folder name, to forever "stamp" that torrent as being "version x downloaded from site y".

etree has versioning, zappateers has some form of it, and I've seen some people using some other versioning system (in some info files i've seen something like "please use LLB #715 to identify this show", I can't remember if it is LLB(?) or something else, I need to look that up again and look into it further).

Tapers don't have to worry about it, if they only listen to their own Master shows or only trade first gen with their taper friends, right? But if they trade freely, then they should be concerned too! With their special knowledge and the experience with music quality they "should" have gained by taping, I would think that a "good" taper would be most concerned of all.


Concerned???

:rolleyes:


As a taper who started in the 60's, the one thing I learned many years ago is that once a tape has left my hands, it doesn't matter what my wishes or concerns are.

Once a tape has left a taper's hands, it's in "public domain" now.


And "public domain" is what causes there to be the "many versions" (especially of the same recording) that is mentioned in the above posting.

These "many versions" now run the gamut from torrents posted by "good seeders" trying to be meticulous with torrent details (as seen in this thread) all the way to the type of collecting mentality that values quantity over quality and allows for falsifying lineage/pedigree (quite prevalent on a few torrent sites).

I will be following this discussion with great interest.

"Many versions" -- indeed... :lol

guygee
2005-08-09, 06:01 PM
Concerned???

:rolleyes:

As a taper who started in the 60's, the one thing I learned many years ago is that once a tape has left my hands, it doesn't matter what my wishes or concerns are.

Once a tape has left a taper's hands, it's in "public domain" now.

Freezer - What I meant was if a taper "trades freely", outside of a small trusted circle, then he should be concerned with the quality of what he gets back in trades, and he should appreciate good trading practices.

I've downloaded a show or two from you and I know you are a great taper, if I forgot to thank you then I am thanking you now. I think the last one was that torrent with several versions of "Black Napkins" that you released, I really enjoy that.

Five
2005-08-09, 06:15 PM
I've always presumed the "f" was there because otherwise you'd have a folder with a file extension.
that too...

i like the flac16 or flac24 idea...however what then for 44.1kHz and 48kHz [and even 96kHz]...flac16_441 and flac24_48?

i guess my real issue is: how much info is *too much* in regards to a folder name? its all in the info text afterall...
I generally try to imitate the best naming practices I see on shows out there. When I started out I didn't like the etree format much at all, but now I've fully jumped on board with that. I also like tagged FLACs so that I can see the song names in my playa.

I haven't seen anybody using flac16_441 etc... I really like having 16bit 44.1kHz audio all the time, so I put the "16" to avoid confusion with 24bit. As for different sampling rates... I dunno, kind of an inconvenience for ppl who want to burn a disc to listen to in their car or whatever. But that will eventually change, so its worth archiving stuff with "non-standard" sample rates... altho I think these sets are usually created by accident on the part of the author.

Probably just enough so that others reading the folder name can recognize what the show is. This whould include some type of "version" ID, since the same show can exist in many versions, even if taped by the same taper. Why else would Trader's Den care so much about the difference between "from silver" and "cdrx"? Many people don't know their burner's offsets, and at best most only know the combined offset. So if you go audio->audio, the combined offset needs to be used, but if you go audio-> lossless compressed, you nead the read offset only. With my last drive, it was easy to find the combined offset by using the "compare waves" feature in EAC, but there are infinite linear combinations of the read and write offsets that can produce the same combined offset. The only way I could think of finding out my read offset was by trial and error, comparing md5's on successive burns. How many people go through that effort? So digital pollution is a definite problem, and versioning is necessary. (This is the reason everyone should always archive their audio and video showas on "Data" CDs or "Data" DVDs, then burn seperate to listen/watch).

There may be many versions of the same show out there, and we can't give them all the same folder name. That is why I posted on this topic at all, to try and get some consensus on how to do this.

One problem with using the torrent site/thread number ID is that the original seeder doesn't know what will be assigned until they seed, so they can't use it to ID their show, and everyone else would have to add it. It would be a nice feature of the tracker if some unique ID could be tacked onto the folder name, to forever "stamp" that torrent as being "version x downloaded from site y".

etree has versioning, zappateers has some form of it, and I've seen some people using some other versioning system (in some info files i've seen something like "please use LLB #715 to identify this show", I can't remember if it is LLB(?) or something else, I need to look that up again and look into it further).

Tapers don't have to worry about it, if they only listen to their own Master shows or only trade first gen with their taper friends, right? But if they trade freely, then they should be concerned too! With their special knowledge and the experience with music quality they "should" have gained by taping, I would think that a "good" taper would be most concerned of all.
this is an interesting direction for the thread... when I know there's multiple versions I try to put something like "somebandYYYY-MM-DD-extrainfo.flac16" for the folder and "somebandYYYY-MM-DD-extrainfo-t01.flac" etc for the tracks. I try to keep the extra info as short as possible. There doesn't seem to be any standard for this... ppl will put CSB in there or something but with some shows there could be two CSB sources. Also numbering can get kind of weird unless its a very popular band like Nirvana where they have a page like livenirvana.com that is dedicated to keeping track of all this stuff.

I just seeded a pumpkins show with two sources from different tapers if anybody wants to see an example of how I prefer to name my shows and/or make any suggestions (which I'm open to) on how to do it better. I also tagged all the files with foobar2k, something I always like to do for myself that not too many seeders bother with. Of course, this is not the only way to do it folks, just the best system I've come up with at this point in time...
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10370

paddington
2005-08-09, 06:21 PM
I just seeded a pumpkins show with

Pumpkin Seeds. mmmmmm. :D

guygee
2005-08-09, 06:45 PM
Also numbering can get kind of weird unless its a very popular band like Nirvana where they have a page like livenirvana.com that is dedicated to keeping track of all this stuff.


When I was involved in STG I agitated for the "Old Torrents" page (whatever we called it) to be turned into just such an archive site. The info files were there, the torrents were numbered, all we had to do was to take up a collection for md5's and ffp's and it could have been turned into a database for shows torrented on STG, a reference point for reseeds in the future. I was unable to generate much enthusiasm at the higher levels for this idea, and sadly it was not to be.

There is still a need for such a reference site, like a db.etree.org, but for the wider torrenting community. Then, a numbering scheme for identifying show versions would work out. Any plans on Trader's Den to go in this direction?

U2Lynne
2005-08-09, 07:01 PM
Hey Guy, I think this is an interesting idea, however I can't even get some people to use standards in naming files, let alone folders! And, I don't know if people could agree on folder naming conventions. I mean, I *like* the .shnf or flacf or apef on the end. :)

U2Lynne
2005-08-09, 07:07 PM
When I was involved in STG I agitated for the "Old Torrents" page (whatever we called it) to be turned into just such an archive site. The info files were there, the torrents were numbered, all we had to do was to take up a collection for md5's and ffp's and it could have been turned into a database for shows torrented on STG, a reference point for reseeds in the future. I was unable to generate much enthusiasm at the higher levels for this idea, and sadly it was not to be.

There is still a need for such a reference site, like a db.etree.org, but for the wider torrenting community. Then, a numbering scheme for identifying show versions would work out. Any plans on Trader's Den to go in this direction?
Damn, are you Stephen in disguise (RainDawg here, or sol4578 on STG)? He has a similar idea for here. We just need some programmers to work on it. I'm the only one currently programming here and I always seem to have my hands full with other projects and so he and I have never figured out exactly how we want that to work. I'd love your ideas on it. I can pass them on to Stephen and see what he thinks.

freezer
2005-08-09, 07:31 PM
Freezer - What I meant was if a taper "trades freely", outside of a small trusted circle, then he should be concerned with the quality of what he gets back in trades, and he should appreciate good trading practices.

Since I've been a member of this site, I have not been offered anything resembling a trade.

I have had demands made of me and I have been called a hoarder while the shows in question are available (just not from me) and I have supplied other recordings to collectors in order to circulate, but "TRADE"???

What means that word, Kemosabe??? :hmm:

And as far as receiving the same quality as I'd sent out, I found that unless you trade solely within a small circle of tapers, then it's "Caveat Emptor" all the way, baby. ( I've seen on a certain torrent site where the phrase, "sounds good" is considered lineage. :lol and on a 10th gen bootleg of shows that I recorded, no less...)

However, your newest comment opens a different can o' worms, doesn't it?

Once the recording is past that small circle, how do you verify lineage? How can you be absolutely and positively sure that the lineage is correct???

Quite simply, it's virtually impossible.

Case in point: I recorded a Pink Floyd show on 4/28/77 in Baton Rouge. I traded one copy in 1977 (from my safety copy) to someone who traded it once. That's 3G at the least. However, that recording has just popped up in the PF low gen trading circles with a bogus lineage. How do I know that? I've seen it listed variously as a master clone to a 2nd generation cassette. (I've also had someone I trust send out e-mails to some of these low gen collectors who usually answer, "well, my 'un-named' friend told the so." :rolleyes: )

This is how bogus lineage starts to circulate.

I saw the same thing happen with the 12/1/74 Yes concert I recorded in Baton Rouge.

I see it's also being traded as a master "series" -- whatever that means.

Again, bogus lineage. (I haven't listened to the master tape in 27 years. How could someone get a master "series" without getting a copy of the master?)

So should I waste my time contacting anyone to set them straight?

Why bother...the show is out there, it's in "public domain".

Pink Floyd 4/28/77 & Yes 12/1/74 - Caveat Emptor, baby if you're looking for a master copy. BUT you can get a copy...nobody's hoarding these shows...you just won't be getting a verifiable low gen recording.

I did my job, the shows have been circulating for over 25 years.

(However, I do have a couple of shows I recorded last week in the French Quarter in N'Awlins that I'd like to get out. Anybody want to spread some genuine New Orleans shows from master recordings? PM me and let me get these discs out to somebody who will promise to share them. THESE shows are uncirculating.)

I've downloaded a show or two from you and I know you are a great taper, if I forgot to thank you then I am thanking you now. I think the last one was that torrent with several versions of "Black Napkins" that you released, I really enjoy that.

With all due respect, I appreciate your vote of thanks for the assorted 'Black Napkins' :cool: .....BUT - you must have me mixed up with somebody else. I have never uploaded anything. I have supplied recordings to others to be seeded, but never been involved in an actual torrent other than to comment on it or the lineage.

However here's a quote, sent to me in a PM by a friend I met on this site.

In the last year I, and others, have witnessed a lot more people who seem to expect something for nothing. Why is it when someone posts a review of a new release they have received the first thing out of someone's mouth is "when's the torrent?" I find that disrespectful. I bring it up now because I now see it more often than I see "can we work out a trade?"

Remember trades, or at least writing someone asking what can be worked out to obtain a copy? Not everyone is into this torrent scene, and right now a bit of a backlash is starting to manifest. I rarely talk publicly about my projects anymore because of the subsequent PMs asking if/when I'm going to torrent them.

I suppose the broadband internet culture has brought this on, and I don't expect it to go away. But let's be a bit more respectful around here and cool it with the "gimme" attitude. Don't make torrenting more of a chore than a desire to share.

Anyone know who originally wrote this quote???

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

wk1
2005-08-09, 08:48 PM
i don't understand alot about what is bothering any original tapers. bootlegs were around alot longer than bit torrents. bootlegs are going to be around untill there are no people left on earth. to think about being the bootleg police is the same kind of mission the usa took on in viet nam and iraq... you ain't gonna win.
holding out on making new torrents of shows that are currently available to purchase as bootlegs is like buying the guns for the enemy. i'm sorry but i cannont see this any other way. if you are concerned with your recordings getting sold, then create a new torrent. this is the only way i can see as a way of fighting the bootlegers (or send it to somone who will IE: the firm new orleans 1986, i sent it to a fellow den trader, and now it's out there, along with whatever bootleg is for sale i had only heard about).
people have done hard time in this country for selling bootlegs, music, movies. have any of the original tapers 'ratted out' any of the salesmen who are selling these recordings of concern?
why not dangle a carrot show (a fake live show) , get a bootleger to take the bait, then rat him out the the riaa!
this is my biggest concern. if they say the safest place for a criminal to hide is at the police station, where is the safest place for the bootlegger to hide?
no my friendly tapers who are concerned about your recordings ending up as bootlegs, i don't see your point. the more rare a show is , the more price the bootlegger will ask and get it. as long as you don't allow for any of these shows to see there way thru the bit torrent system, then you can bet your sweet ass that the bootleg of said show will continue to be sold.
that's life, if it aint one thing, it's anohter. but the only way to beat the bootleggers is to get as many copies out there as possible. i really really don't understand you guys sitting there, looking at a bootleg for sale, saying to yourself what? 'i'll show them, i'll never dig that original tape up ever' and what do you accomplish by doing so? your keeping the bootlegger in business... oipen up your eyes and see the big picture... not just you sitting in a room with some magazine open looking at some ad for 'bootlegs for sale' if you don't like it (bootlegging) then do something about it... make the bootleg worthless, your the only person that can do that. the person buying the unknown gen bootleg would not have had to do that if a better trade copy existed or a torrent was available
wennykelly1
wk1

AAR.oner
2005-08-09, 10:37 PM
another 2 cents...

i agree with everyone [and i ain't the just-to-be-agreeable type]. but we are in a "new era" folks. computers & checksums & all are *very*different from the days of cassette trading as freezer was talking about. i believe that recordings *being made currently*, enjoy a benefit that the 60s, 70s and 80s tapers didn't have. CHECKSUMS. for the recordings made back in yer days freezer, i have no idea how we deal with the various "versions" of a show.

(This is the reason everyone should always archive their audio and video showas on "Data" CDs or "Data" DVDs, then burn seperate to listen/watch).

i couldn't agree with that more...you can go thru a few recent threads and see that that's what i'm always pushing for...lhowever, there are other collectors/traders/tapers who don't see it as much of an issue. I call it the "archivist vs fan" debate. neither are wrong, we just approach from a different viewpoint. i work in film/audio, so "specifics" are integral to my nature. some people just like watching/listening to a good show.

everything in its due time...personally, i think getting people to trade in data format with md5s is far more important than what is in a folder's name--at this current moment in the trading community atleast....then we tackle the details.

personally, i'm just tired of getting shows in either CD Audio format or DVD's in DVD-Video format...no checksums, no info...it sucks but...oh well i haven't offered any resolve with this, but thats just my view on this topic--as a fan, a collector, an archivist, and a taper.

guygee
2005-08-09, 11:57 PM
[...]
With all due respect, I appreciate your vote of thanks for the assorted 'Black Napkins' :cool: .....BUT - you must have me mixed up with somebody else. I have never uploaded anything. I have supplied recordings to others to be seeded, but never been involved in an actual torrent other than to comment on it or the lineage.
[...]


Well that only verifies what you are saying in your post above the part I quoted. I needed to read the info file more closely, so partly my mistake.

What I was thanking you for was listed as:

Frank Zappa
Various Dates, Various Locations
Freezer's Choice #21 - The Zappa Tapes

The seeder didn't bother to list his handle in the info file, and the torrent info is deleted from the site (This is what I'm talkin' about!). Did you have a series called "Freezer's Choice #NN?

At least there is "credible" lineage listed in this particular infofile:

Unknown Mics and/or recorder > Cass(m) played back on JVC TD-W 209 > JVC XL-R5010 stand alone burner > CDR(1) > EAC (secure, offsets corrected) > FLAC (level 8)

Since it is Cass(m) I'm guessing the seeder doesn't even know you (otherwise Cass(1)), and is marketing his torrent with your name.

There is a user here, ssamadhi97, who occasionally graces our discussions and I am pretty sure is top is top-100-people-in-the-world caliber for spotting lossy sources in audio by studying spectrographs, but even he cannot but only roughly guess generation.

Freezer, I can only hope that you, too, will continue to check in and help us with bogus lineage warnings. It is one thing to be an expert in psycho-acoustics software like ssamadhi97, but you are the taper, you were there, you *know*.

I am not a taper, I was a "cassette(m)" collector at one time, and I have several (many?) shows that don't circulate. I keep waiting for the masters or first gens to come out, but not so far...however, I am determined not to take the stuff to the grave with me, it needs to be released, if not in pristine form, then in some form. Personally, I do not care so much about the people who will download now; rather I am thinking about posterity, several generations in the future and beyond. I can only hope that if I eventually release these recordings they will be distributed as widely as possible, and the shows will find their way to someone who cares enough to archive them and make them available for future generations.

As for lineage, it is a tough battle, and your posts open my eyes to how tough it really is, but I am not waving the white flag just yet, I am going to do my best to get the the bottom of these things.

paddington
2005-08-10, 12:06 AM
However here's a quote, sent to me in a PM by a friend I met on this site.



Anyone know who originally wrote this quote???

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

I do. ;)

freezer
2005-08-10, 12:44 AM
Well guygee, at least you didn't rant on endlessly about bootleggers.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Yes I did supply the seeder the FC #21.

Yes this is the lineage I supplied: Unknown Mics and/or recorder > Cass(m) played back on JVC TD-W 209 > JVC XL-R5010 stand alone burner (I never give out info on my recorders or mics. I could have told where in each venue the recording was made, as I still have the ticket stubs. I did tell him what I wore to each show, but I've forgotten what I had for dinner on those evenings. ;) )

Yes I recently sent out a package to dorrcoq and he'll be seeding something from me this weekend, I believe. I think he now has lineage supplied this evening.


No to Mr wennykelly1: Sorry, I'd rather spend time supplying UNCIRCULATED shows than supplying master copies of already circulating shows to charlatans and frauds who fabricate lineages (RE: PF 4/28/77 and YES 12/1/74). Time to move on, sir. If the best you can get is a unverified lineage bootleg, then everybody has an even playing field. No need to go any further than saying "lineage - unverified generation bootleg" -- now, is there?

guygee
2005-08-10, 01:30 AM
Damn, are you Stephen in disguise (RainDawg here, or sol4578 on STG)? He has a similar idea for here. We just need some programmers to work on it. I'm the only one currently programming here and I always seem to have my hands full with other projects and so he and I have never figured out exactly how we want that to work. I'd love your ideas on it. I can pass them on to Stephen and see what he thinks.

I am not sure what is feasible with respect to your tracker software and bittorrent tracker technology in general, so just let me start with a "wish list":

1)Create a database of all shows torrented on Trader's Den, to include info file, seeder, st5/ffp's, date uploaded, size, taper/bootleg title, thread/torrent #. This should be easily searchable on artist/show date, seeder, taper/bootleg title, date uploaded, thread/torrent #.

2)In the future, automatically "tack-on" a torrent file ID to the torrent folder, something like ".TDnnnnn." would be nice.

3) Better, (and I realize this is probably very difficult) auto-generate a small additional info file, something like "[TorrentFolderName]-TDNotes.txt". This should be added to the torrent somehow, and include "Uploaded to Traders Den", DB url, seeder, upload date, torrent ID, size.

Maybe this could be accomplished by having seeders fill out a short form before torrenting, but I have to wonder if this would stop certain seeders from posting here (see page 1). Personally, I would vote against anything that discouraged people (especially tapers) from seeding. So whatever is done in this vein better be extremely user-friendly.

Let me know what you think, maybe we can take this off-line and talk some tech talk with you and RainDawg in a couple of days, I have a window between semesters after tomorrow.

guygee
2005-08-10, 01:48 AM
Yes I did supply the seeder the FC #21.

Yes this is the lineage I supplied: Unknown Mics and/or recorder > Cass(m) played back on JVC TD-W 209 > JVC XL-R5010 stand alone burner (I never give out info on my recorders or mics. I could have told where in each venue the recording was made, as I still have the ticket stubs. I did tell him what I wore to each show, but I've forgotten what I had for dinner on those evenings. ;) )


Well my thanks were not entirely misplaced. Despite the obvious flaws in the lineage (what color socks were you wearing?), your personal verification is now appended to my infofile. You ARE the REAL freezer, right? ;)

guygee
2005-08-10, 02:30 AM
Since I've been a member of this site, I have not been offered anything resembling a trade.

I have had demands made of me and I have been called a hoarder while the shows in question are available (just not from me) and I have supplied other recordings to collectors in order to circulate, but "TRADE"???

What means that word, Kemosabe??? :hmm:

And as far as receiving the same quality as I'd sent out, I found that unless you trade solely within a small circle of tapers, then it's "Caveat Emptor" all the way, baby. ( I've seen on a certain torrent site where the phrase, "sounds good" is considered lineage. :lol and on a 10th gen bootleg of shows that I recorded, no less...)
[...]


Freezer - I think you just perfectly described the whole "Catch-22" of trading in the days before wideband internet. If I am not a taper, what could I possibly offer in a trade that would interest you? All I would have had was some unknown gen cassettes (just a couple marked "first gen", but passed on to me by a tired trader, so not verified). I agree the torrenting community has some big flaws, and half of the stuff out there is probably junk, but my ears don't lie to me, and there are plenty of other ears out there. At least all the music is coming out, even if it is in these many different "versions".

Eventually we will sort this mess out and get down to best sources. Etree has that pretty much down pat, and the Zappa and Dylan communities are getting it together. Same with Phish, Pearl Jam, and probably other bands I may not follow much. That is why I am so obsessed with this "versioning" thing, it is the only way to sort out the mess, and it will take years, but it will get done if we provide reliable people with the right tools to do it, like online show information, with versioning and st5/ffp's, etc.

freezer
2005-08-10, 03:42 AM
Well my thanks were not entirely misplaced. Despite the obvious flaws in the lineage (what color socks were you wearing?), your personal verification is now appended to my infofile. You ARE the REAL freezer, right? ;)

Orange sox, standard for the times. I had 5 pair.

Yes I am the real Mr. Freezer, got Maytag frost-free stamped on my ass.


half of the stuff out there is probably junk, but my ears don't lie to me, and there are plenty of other ears out there. At least all the music is coming out, even if it is in these many different "versions".

Eventually we will sort this mess out and get down to best sources. Etree has that pretty much down pat, and the Zappa and Dylan communities are getting it together. Same with Phish, Pearl Jam, and probably other bands I may not follow much. That is why I am so obsessed with this "versioning" thing, it is the only way to sort out the mess, and it will take years, but it will get done if we provide reliable people with the right tools to do it, like online show information, with versioning and st5/ffp's, etc.


Your ears don't lie to you that half the stuff out there is junk?

Now that is a new one on me.... Lineage>junk. :lol

I don't see a lot of folks downloading a show with that lineage, do you? :rolleyes:

The Zappa community is plauged by a giant troll who has been infecting it for years with faulty lineage and mp3s for years. (Anybody wanna make a guess here who I'm referring to?) And the mess he created will be rolling downhill for years to come. And there are collectors who like the mp3 files he torrented. And who will argue with you and flame you over it.

The Dylan community bickers amongst itself over easily verified lineage by thriving on bootlegs and sites which tout bootlegs over easy to find low gen tapes. (5/3/76 late show for instance, its only been in the last six months that most of the Dylanites even heard that there were 2 shows on the evening and that the 5/3/76 early show exists as an audience recording.)

You are going to have a god-awful time trying to sort this stuff out, simply because of "good traders" or "good seeders" who delight in clouding the waters around certain bands and certain recordings.

Without naming the names, there are specific sites whose clientele traffic in bogus lineage and pedigree as coin of the realm. Bet you 10 cents you can name a few.........at least one in particular.......won't take too much presence of mind to do so......

I agree, its always been rooted in the fan vs. archivist arguement, as AAR.oner suggests.

However, like I said, I'm much more interested in getting UNCIRCULATED shows out than I am in flogging a dead horse by dragging out a 30+ year old master and circulating another version.

When I resurfaced a few years ago, it was because I'd noticed a small group of Led Zeppelin collectors bragging on a certain Yahoo trade group site about just how easy it was to find "master clones" and they were using the 2/28/75 Baton Rouge Led Zeppelin show as their example. Well, I had made that particular master, it had been in storage for 15 years, so I was 100% positive there was no way it had ever been digitally converted from the master tapes. When I remarked on this, one of those so-called "good traders" replied that all I had to do was give him the info on what mics and recorder I'd used so he could make his lineage look better. He was more interested in making his list look better than he was in circulating a true low gen tape. He already had a copy of the tape, now he could just claim he had something he didn't because he would have better lineage.

That's the tip of the iceberg you are attempting to climb. But I wish you all the best in your quest, Admiral Byrd.........

Go back a few postings on this thread and see what kind of veiled remarks were made about getting upgrades, so bootleggers would find it harder to sell their wares.

That fellow wasn't even interested in discussing how to define torrent files or keep proper lineage. He was interested in upgrading his collection. He wasn't interested in getting UNCIRCULATED shows into the trade pool, he didn't even ask what shows I was trying to offer. His whole message was about getting better copies of what is already out there. (I did find someone else to take me up on getting some Brass Band shows from 8/6/05 into circulation.)

Do I have a solution to the problem of keeping better lineage with the files? No, but I can do what I've done since I resurfaced. Continue to supply UNCIRCULATED shows only. And leave the stuff that's been bootlegged remain in unverifiable generational form. Yes 12/1/74, PF 4/28/77, LZ 2/28/75, Rolling Stones 6/1/75, Kiss 7/16/74.........they're out there. They're not hoarded. They're just not available as low gen recordings. But the shows are available.

Evens the playing field somewhat. Nobody has a low gen of these.

Let's move on to some new shows. With proper lineage. That's my preference.

freezer
2005-08-10, 03:55 AM
Freezer - I think you just perfectly described the whole "Catch-22" of trading in the days before wideband internet. If I am not a taper, what could I possibly offer in a trade that would interest you? All I would have had was some unknown gen cassettes (just a couple marked "first gen", but passed on to me by a tired trader, so not verified).

Then go out and tape something.

Why do you want to play with the big boys if you don't want to grow up?

How do you think the hobby started?

jcrab66
2005-08-10, 04:13 AM
Then go out and tape something.



now theres an interesting concept....... ;)

guygee
2005-08-10, 05:07 AM
Then go out and tape something.

Why do you want to play with the big boys if you don't want to grow up?

How do you think the hobby started?

I'm not going to argue your point, but not all of us have a lot of free time, we have careers, family, plus not a lot of good bands make it out to Melbourne FL near where I live. Add to that, I am not much interested in most new shows, my tastes tend towards older shows. I should have taped the Leo Kottke show I went to a few months ago, but I was just slow on the draw, and ended up with really crappy seats. Also, not everyone can afford the expensive equipment, and some concert ticket prices these days are outrageous.

I imagine some tapers had rich relatives and came into money, and maybe some live in attics and survive on catfood, and some in between. It just not the life I "fell into". Maybe these are all just poor excuses, you guys are probably right...

But at least give collectors their due. Master tapes get ruined, stolen, your house burns down, you die...lucky some collectors saved a copy.

guygee
2005-08-10, 06:07 AM
Your ears don't lie to you that half the stuff out there is junk?

Now that is a new one on me.... Lineage>junk. :lol

I don't see a lot of folks downloading a show with that lineage, do you? :rolleyes:


For shows released without proper (or dubious) lineage, we need to resort to other means. The basic plan is simple: line up two versions and listen side-by-side. Maybe do a spectrographic analysis if they are close, to look for frequency content. Then decide "Source A is better than Source B". Others will do the same, a consensus will form. People with "tin ears" will out themselves. Rinse, lather, repeat. Though this dialectic approach we can find the best available sources. Like Dankseeds, I hope we can find people with golden ears.


The Zappa community is plauged by a giant troll who has been infecting it for years with faulty lineage and mp3s for years. (Anybody wanna make a guess here who I'm referring to?) And the mess he created will be rolling downhill for years to come. And there are collectors who like the mp3 files he torrented. And who will argue with you and flame you over it.


It is Mastertroll now, if you please. I think zappateers already has some of this sorted out.


The Dylan community bickers amongst itself over easily verified lineage by thriving on bootlegs and sites which tout bootlegs over easy to find low gen tapes. (5/3/76 late show for instance, its only been in the last six months that most of the Dylanites even heard that there were 2 shows on the evening and that the 5/3/76 early show exists as an audience recording.)


Like I have said somewhere else in technobabble, I do not understand this reverence for "Silver CDs", unless it is compared to a CDx rip of a "Silver CD"


[...]
That's the tip of the iceberg you are attempting to climb. But I wish you all the best in your quest, Admiral Byrd.........

Go back a few postings on this thread and see what kind of veiled remarks were made about getting upgrades, so bootleggers would find it harder to sell their wares.

That fellow wasn't even interested in discussing how to define torrent files or keep proper lineage. He was interested in upgrading his collection. He wasn't interested in getting UNCIRCULATED shows into the trade pool, he didn't even ask what shows I was trying to offer. His whole message was about getting better copies of what is already out there. (I did find someone else to take me up on getting some Brass Band shows from 8/6/05 into circulation.)


All I can do, if anything, is help provide suggestions, and maybe help build some software tools, to enable like-minded people to work towards the task of organizing and sorting through music with the goal of finding the best sources. Sure, most people won't be interested, but we just need some critical mass.


Do I have a solution to the problem of keeping better lineage with the files? No, but I can do what I've done since I resurfaced. Continue to supply UNCIRCULATED shows only. And leave the stuff that's been bootlegged remain in unverifiable generational form. Yes 12/1/74, PF 4/28/77, LZ 2/28/75, Rolling Stones 6/1/75, Kiss 7/16/74.........they're out there. They're not hoarded. They're just not available as low gen recordings. But the shows are available.

Evens the playing field somewhat. Nobody has a low gen of these.

Let's move on to some new shows. With proper lineage. That's my preference.

I can only thank you greatly for your efforts past and present.

freezer
2005-08-10, 09:33 AM
I'm not going to argue your point, but not all of us have a lot of free time, we have careers, family, plus not a lot of good bands make it out to Melbourne FL near where I live. Add to that, I am not much interested in most new shows, my tastes tend towards older shows. I should have taped the Leo Kottke show I went to a few months ago, but I was just slow on the draw, and ended up with really crappy seats. Also, not everyone can afford the expensive equipment, and some concert ticket prices these days are outrageous.

I imagine some tapers had rich relatives and came into money, and maybe some live in attics and survive on catfood, and some in between. It just not the life I "fell into". Maybe these are all just poor excuses, you guys are probably right...

But at least give collectors their due. Master tapes get ruined, stolen, your house burns down, you die...lucky some collectors saved a copy.


Do you hear that? It's the sound of the world's smallest violin playing "My Heart Bleeds For You"............. :rolleyes:

You've smelled up this discussion with some absolutely poor excuses indeed.

Try this instead:
Tape something off the FM, sneak in that pocket notebook, Mr. Career-Man, shut up and do something about saving some shows for the next generation of "collectors" instead of patting yourself on the back today.


"But at least give collectors their due. Master tapes get ruined, stolen, your house burns down, you die...lucky some collectors saved a copy."

What bullshit! What the hell do I care what you 'saved'? I did not record any shows solely for you to add to your archives, and I could give a rat's ass what part of my collection survives after I die...

guygee, please take this to heart, and I mean this sincerely, ".......and the horse you rode in on......"

Cat food....

guygee, you surprise me. With all of the intelligent replies you've made, with all of the positive remarks you postulated, to get this far into the discussion and then to crap out as you've just done.....You need to wake up and smell yourself.

Cat food, indeed.

And you, Mr. guygee, is your 'career' in "advanced handtruck" maybe?


People with "tin ears" will out themselves. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Wash up bud, you just outed yourself for what you really are.

Man, you are going to break your arm patting yourself on the back... :lol :lol


All I can do, if anything, is help provide suggestions

Well, guy, that's a relief.

And here I thought you really had something concrete to contribute.

:hmm:

guygee
2005-08-10, 11:07 AM
"But at least give collectors their due. Master tapes get ruined, stolen, your house burns down, you die...lucky some collectors saved a copy."

What bullshit! What the hell do I care what you 'saved'? I did not record any shows solely for you to add to your archives, and I could give a rat's ass what part of my collection survives after I die...

guygee, please take this to heart, and I mean this sincerely, ".......and the horse you rode in on......"


Hey, not everyone can be a "superstar" taper from the 70's!

Anyways, what motivates you to seed your tapes at all? Why bother? After all, you can listen to them yourself whenever you want, right?

I did like your collection of "Black Napkins", but I really do not know if there is anything else in your collection I would want. I haven't looked at your list. So I wasn't referring to "me" collecting your shows, but to the general collecting pool. You know, the stuff that will survive after you die? Your life's work? You don't care? I guess you and I just look at things differently.

As to what I can contribute beyond "suggestions", it depends on what the folks who run Trader's Den think of my suggestions. Do they want to implement them in some form? If so, maybe I could help. If not, end of discussion.

freezer
2005-08-10, 11:51 AM
I sincerely doubt that's its the end of the discussion.

freezer
2005-08-10, 12:17 PM
Hey, not everyone can be a "superstar" taper from the 70's!

Anyways, what motivates you to seed your tapes at all? Why bother? After all, you can listen to them yourself whenever you want, right?

I did like your collection of "Black Napkins", but I really do not know if there is anything else in your collection I would want. I haven't looked at your list. So I wasn't referring to "me" collecting your shows, but to the general collecting pool. You know, the stuff that will survive after you die? Your life's work? You don't care? I guess you and I just look at things differently.

As to what I can contribute beyond "suggestions", it depends on what the folks who run Trader's Den think of my suggestions. Do they want to implement them in some form? If so, maybe I could help. If not, end of discussion.

guygee....

Your delusions are showing.

I speak from a perspective of history in the collector's world, you speak like a computer programmer.........

What motivates you to want collectors to follow your 'suggestions', hmmm????

My motivations are part of my inner demons and I very rarely "release" anything you want, so hopefully, we will not have to cross paths again.

As for being a superstar, far from it. I never consider anything like that.

You haven't looked at my list because you weren't invited to do so.

Who told you you deserve to have that right? I haven't seen your list, but I haven't felt the need to do that either. What do you wanna bet that you have shows I recorded on your list? Maybe with bogus lineage?

"My life's work?" again I say to you, "......... and the horse you rode in on....."

To try to compartmentalize someone who has lived longer than you and done more for YOUR hobby than you are even willing to do smacks of immaturity on you part.

However I did notice in this very thread that another, much younger and very prolific taper telling you the same thing; go record some shows yourself.


Then your perspective will carry some weight; instead of trying to scale Mount Olympus with your hands full of 'gimme' and your mouth full of 'much obliged'......

As far as the mods and general populace here at TTD go, I expect you'll get the same reaction you've gotten already. Maybe 6 people care, and 1000 couldn't give a good goddam. (As long as they get the show, lineage be damned.)

Been there, done that........ :lol :lol :lol

jcrab66
2005-08-10, 12:29 PM
I'm not going to argue your point, but not all of us have a lot of free time, we have careers, family, plus not a lot of good bands make it out to Melbourne FL near where I live.

i would have to call bullshit on this stupidity. A. I have a career B. I have a family C. I live someplace far more removed from anyplace bands frequently roll through yet still manage to tape an average of 4 shows a month. Melbourne is not far from Orlando where just about everyone rolls through and if they dont play there go another hour over to Tampa and they will be there. It doesnt take all that much money, which shouldnt be much of a problem anyway for a "career" man such as yourself. As freezer said you could always do some FM's from the comfort of your happy little home while sitting around the table with the family or better yet you could take a few extra minutes to send an email to some jocks at the radio station and see if you cant get a Pre FM copy of the show. Do i really need to remind you of the old "excuses are like assholes" saying?

jcrab66
2005-08-10, 12:34 PM
However I did notice in this very thread that another, much younger and very prolific taper telling you the same thing; go record some shows yourself.


heh, I doubt I am that much younger than you brother but I appreciate the kind words.. :lol

ssamadhi97
2005-08-10, 02:53 PM
Sooo, how did a thread about a couple sensible torrent / folder naming suggestions into full-blown internet drama? :lmao:


I dunno what's the big deal about instating some naming conventions. I guess people would be free to love them or leave them, but at least something would be there for those who are looking for guidelines to follow or new ideas for organizing their collection. And it's not like they'd take much time to implement on the seeder's end, compared to the effort required for compiling the files, show notes, etc.

guygee
2005-08-10, 04:03 PM
guygee....

I speak from a perspective of history in the collector's world, you speak like a computer programmer.........

What motivates you to want collectors to follow your 'suggestions', hmmm????
[...]

You haven't looked at my list because you weren't invited to do so.

Who told you you deserve to have that right? I haven't seen your list, but I haven't felt the need to do that either. What do you wanna bet that you have shows I recorded on your list? Maybe with bogus lineage?

"My life's work?" again I say to you, "......... and the horse you rode in on....."

To try to compartmentalize someone who has lived longer than you and done more for YOUR hobby than you are even willing to do smacks of immaturity on you part.


Without computer programmers you tapers would still be trading in your smug little elite trading circles, hoarding and feeding the booters who would still be charging the rest of us $40/show for their degraded crap.

Do you even know who RMS is? Vinton Cerf? Bram Cohen?

Your ability to reach so many people and touch them with your work comes from riding on the backs of these guys, and you don't even know it. That smacks of ignorance on your part.

And these guys did far more for music lovers and show collectors around the world then any group of tapers, even a superstar taper from the '70's.

freezer
2005-08-10, 04:22 PM
Without computer programmers you tapers would still be trading in your smug little elite trading circles, hoarding and feeding the booters who would be charging still be charging the rest of us $40/show for their degraded crap.

Do you even know who RMS is? Vinton Cerf? Bram Cohen?

Your ability to reach so many people and touch them with your work comes from riding on the backs of these guys, and you don't even know it. That smacks of ignorance on your part.

And these guys did far more for music lovers and show collectors around the world then any group of tapers, even a superstar taper from the '70's.


Guy,

Let me say this as clearly as I can so you understand in your first reading:

Fuck Bram Cohen.

And you sure as hell ain't in the same league with Bram, are you? Unless it's in your own mind. :lol

and guygee, to you I say once more, "......and the horse you rode in on........"

Quit calling me "a superstar taper" before I refer to you as the f*cking parasite and leech you are making yourself out to be. I really don't want to do that, y'know........ :lol

You somehow think the world owes you something. I sure as hell don't, not even the wind from my ass to cool your soup.

You stick to your end of the hobby and I'll do likewise. (But I notice you did not reply to my assertion that your list includes recordings I made. I know I have none that YOU recorded.)

So stop flogging that dead horse about what RMS and Cerf and Bram did. They ain't you. Get off of their coattails.

And these guys did far more for music lovers and show collectors around the world then any group of tapers, even a superstar taper from the '70's.

No they did more for bootleggers then anyone since the Rubber Dubber.

:rolleyes:

:lol :lol :lol

ssamadhi97
2005-08-10, 04:37 PM
guygee, I have one good piece of messageboard advice for you..

__________________
/| /| | |
||__|| | Please do |
/ O O\__ NOT |
/ \ feed the |
/ \ \ troll |
/ _ \ \ ______________|
/ |\____\ \ ||
/ | | | |\____/ ||
/ \|_|_|/ \ __||
/ / \ |____| ||
/ | | /| | --|
| | |// |____ --|
* _ | |_|_|_| | \-/
*-- _--\ _ \ // |
/ _ \\ _ // | /
* / \_ /- | - | |
* ___ c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c____________


And the drama queens could give other people a chance to voice their opinion now, thankyouverymuch.

freezer
2005-08-10, 05:36 PM
guygee, I have one good piece of messageboard advice for you..

__________________
/| /| | |
||__|| | Please do |
/ O O\__ NOT |
/ \ feed the |
/ \ \ troll |
/ _ \ \ ______________|
/ |\____\ \ ||
/ | | | |\____/ ||
/ \|_|_|/ \ __||
/ / \ |____| ||
/ | | /| | --|
| | |// |____ --|
* _ | |_|_|_| | \-/
*-- _--\ _ \ // |
/ _ \\ _ // | /
* / \_ /- | - | |
* ___ c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c____________


And the drama queens could give other people a chance to voice their opinion now, thankyouverymuch, right, Mr.Heubeck?


Ninja, you changed the parrot to look just like Marc.

(and a swell likeness it is)

Now, about those shows with the bogus lineage....you were saying???

guygee
2005-08-10, 06:15 PM
Freezer - First, I apologize for the "superstar" sarcasm. I guess somehow I let your ascerbic style and off-color humor push some of my buttons; I shouldn't let that happen. Interspersed with all of your humor are some very good points, I will concentrate on those.

But now you are poking fun at ssamadhi97? This is a guy who I have personally witnessed spotting and outing at least 50 lossy torrents, and I am sure there were others. Hell, he can even usually tell the codec that was used. What is the purpose of this?

BoldCaptain
2005-08-10, 07:03 PM
Talk, itís only talk
Arguments, agreements, advice, answers,
Articulate announcements
Itís only talk

Talk, itís only talk
Babble, burble, banter, bicker bicker bicker
Brouhaha, boulderdash, ballyhoo
Itís only talk
Back talk

Talk talk talk, itís only talk
Comments, cliches, commentary, controversy
Chatter, chit-chat, chit-chat, chit-chat,
Conversation, contradiction, criticism
Itís only talk
Cheap talk

Talk, talk, itís only talk
Debates, discussions
These are words with a d this time
Dialogue, dualogue, diatribe,
Dissention, declamation
Double talk, double talk

Talk, talk, itís all talk
Too much talk
Small talk
Talk that trash
Expressions, editorials, expugnations, exclamations, enfadulations
Itís all talk
Elephant talk, elephant talk, elephant talk

guygee
2005-08-10, 07:44 PM
I agree action is better than talk, but I learned a few things here, like just how many people here are really interested in preserving music, about some prominent personalities on this site, about the world from the taper's perspective, about what kind of verbal abuse is allowed here, about remembering to "count to 60 before hitting submit", and about when to stop talking. For me, this thread is dead, it is totally polluted. If anyone is still interested in the topic, please start a new thread or PM me. Otherwise I'll assume I just wasted a whole lot of time on "Talk".

freezer
2005-08-10, 11:41 PM
Freezer - First, I apologize for the "superstar" sarcasm. I guess somehow I let your ascerbic style and off-color humor push some of my buttons; I shouldn't let that happen. Interspersed with all of your humor are some very good points, I will concentrate on those.

But now you are poking fun at ssamadhi97? This is a guy who I have personally witnessed spotting and outing at least 50 lossy torrents, and I am sure there were others. Hell, he can even usually tell the codec that was used. What is the purpose of this?

Your friend, your poor old buddy Mr. ssamadhi97 decided to play with the big boys and dive in head first without contributing anything to the discussion or topic, but rather comment in what came across as an attack.

So, in that same spirit, and in a like and similar manner, he got some on his shirt also.

If he was man enough to throw mud, then he got splattered also.

If he's not man enough, then I surmise you do have a right to hold his hand and complain. Gee, guy, are you substituting as his mother?


And I see that Ol' Mr. b. capt'n decided to pipe up and toot on his bosun's whistle. Damn, and I thought he'd been self-promoted at least to the rank of Major Pain.

And here some lyrics for the Major, with tongue planted firmly in cheek....

I got me a complication
And it's an only child
Concernin' my reputation
As something more than wild
I know it serves me right
But I can't sleep at night
Have to hide my face
Or go some other play-ay-ay-ay-ay-ace

I won't cry out for justice
Admit that I was wrong
I'll stay in hibernation
'Til the talk subsides to gone
My social life's a dud
My name is really mud
I'm up to here in lies
Guess I'm down to size
To size

Can't seem to talk about
The things that bother me
Seems to be
What everybody has
Against me
Oh, oh, all right

Here's the situation
And how it really stands
I'm out of circulation
I've all but washed my hands
My social life's a dud
My name is really mud
I'm up to here in lies
Guess I'm down to size
To size

Talk Talk Talk Talk Talk Talk Talk Talk

(better lyrics, don't really care for Mr. Fripp's frippery :lol )

range_hood
2005-08-11, 08:34 AM
A reliable database including the fingerprints could help to keep lineages accurate.

Like db.etree.org (http://db.etree.org/shnlist.php?year=1997&artist=23) or
bootlegarchive.com (http://bootlegarchive.com/media_description.asp?MediaID=31268)

but I think there have to be strict rules like here on ttd on adding new sources.

Then a database-id could be included in the folder-names.

U2Lynne
2005-08-11, 11:27 AM
Hey Guygee, I am interested in your talk about the database. I also sent Stephen a link to your post asking him to take a look.

Sorry this thread got so out of hand. I actually censored another post over in the VBT forum just recently and it's turned into a total mess in The Lounge. *Normally* something like this doesn't happen in Technobabble. I think perhaps I should have warned you a bit when I first saw freezer was posting over here.... if you take a look at his past posts, you'll see what I mean. Sometimes he makes some good points, but he has an 'interesting' way of making them.

guygee
2005-08-11, 11:41 AM
Never say never. Thanks for the concise on-topic response, range-hood.

I agree, but my idea is just a little different. If the seed is straight from the taper, then you are probably right, not much need to add a new source. But many master tapes will never circulate. So in that case, maybe *loosen* the rules a bit, but most importantly, add a "comparison comments" section for each show. That way, we can compare sources and find the "best surviving source". It may not always be a clear-cut choice; for example, the recent release of the 2nd Gen reel source for the Doors Matrix Tapes is probably "Best Surviving Source". The "Complete Matrix Tapes" (Kiss the Stone release) is probably just as close to the source, but some NR applied. The 2nd gen reel version has some short drop-outs and warble, so some people might still prefer the boot, and at least the boot could be used as patch material for somebody to remaster an "Ultimate Best Version". Also, you will have the case of multiple aud recordings for the same show, each with its own flaws, so commenting on the flaws will help people patch together a 'best source" aud version.

There are many great ears on this site, and many great audio signal processing analysts. By comparing sources we can find the best available source, then have a special list, "Trader's Den Recommended Versions", with ID #'s.

BoldCaptain
2005-08-11, 12:30 PM
This subject is actually one of my biggest pet-peeves. Almost half of the files I download need to be renamed before I decode and burn them. Any standardization is surely a good thing, and my previous post brought nothing to the conversation except proof that I can be as big an ass as the next person. I saw no reason for the immediate attack on someone trying to discuss a serious issue, so there must be something here I am unaware of.
I will now go back under the bridge that i crawled out from.

freezer
2005-08-11, 12:56 PM
Sorry this thread got so out of hand. I actually censored another post over in the VBT forum just recently and it's turned into a total mess in The Lounge. *Normally* something like this doesn't happen in Technobabble. I think perhaps I should have warned you a bit when I first saw freezer was posting over here.... if you take a look at his past posts, you'll see what I mean. Sometimes he makes some good points, but he has an 'interesting' way of making them.

This thread was in no way as *nasty* as what happens over in the lounge. Nobody here was discussing taking 'donations' for anything. :wtf:

C'mon Lynne, you know you're just as guilty of egging on the flaming, as I am of getting too volitile in a discussion. (How about a disclaimer about certain moderators who enjoy these 'interesting' threads?)

I'll apologize if you'll admit to your shortcomings also.

Hell, I apologize anyway.

And in an attempt to solidify the apology, there will be a package of new shows out to Five today and to jcrab66 as soon as he PMs me with an address.

:wave:

guygee
2005-08-11, 02:44 PM
Hey Guygee, I am interested in your talk about the database. I also sent Stephen a link to your post asking him to take a look.

Sorry this thread got so out of hand. I actually censored another post over in the VBT forum just recently and it's turned into a total mess in The Lounge. *Normally* something like this doesn't happen in Technobabble. [...]

Thank you U2Lynne, its OK, I am actually to the point of reading though and laughing now. I hope Stephen can wade through far enough to get to the previous two posts by range-hood and me, and this one.

range_hood's suggestion for tightening the torrenting rules definitely could apply to properly extracted analog masters, and daud masters (but even then, I wonder how many people would complain "but I WANT the bootleg-XXX with artwork?).

But let's look at the opposite extreme, "taper unknown", and shows with many versions (boots and otherwise). Then I advocate that we loosen the rules "just enough" to get the music out there in the hands of the fans. Specifically, maybe allow for CDr(x) extractions or even "source unknown" lineages IF (and ony if) no other "definitive" sources are yet available. If people try to seed when a better version is already available, then the mods need a system to quickly check and ban (or allow for fan self-policing as well). But if it is not clear that a better version has already been seeded, then let the torrent flow. And again, if the seeder complains, "but I have your version, and mine is better" well, maybe he is right, get his show out there.

Then, encourage the fans to download multiple versions and compare them in a special forum. Allow people to upload a spectrograph screenshot for each show torrent entry to the database, as well. For each show, we need to assign a version #, and allow people access to infofiles with setlists and lineage, shntool LEN output, and st5/ffp files.

Maybe the easiest way to do this is to just assign a prominent Torrent ID to each torrent (still probably need to add the ID to the folder, or equivalent), then create an easily searchable archive, and let the fans upload the infofiles, st5/ffp's, spectrograph screenshots, and shntool info. Leave a placeholder, and whichever fan uploads a piece of info, he/she gets "credit".

The mods might initially have to do some "cheerleading" to encourage people to use the system, but I think there are enough dedicated people out there to make this work, and eventually it will become habitual. For most collectors, it will be fun to compare versions and "debate" the merits and flaws of each version. This approach would also take any extra load off of the seeders, so it will not change the current seeding procedure or discourage people from seeding here.

Through such a process I think a consensus should form on best available version, and Trader's Den can create a list of recommended versions for people to reference.

guygee
2005-08-11, 03:09 PM
This subject is actually one of my biggest pet-peeves. Almost half of the files I download need to be renamed before I decode and burn them. Any standardization is surely a good thing....

No need to apologize, I totally agree, BoldCaptain, I had exactly the same motivation for my first post in this thread. Worse, if you torrent from certain other (not to be mentioned) sites, I am finding every other show has SBE problems, files not named to line up properly, no ffps... it is taking me hours to even get enough shows fixed to burn 1 DVDs-worth. What a pain!! When do I actually get to listen to the music?? But if you want to trade shows, you have to go though all of this, I won't trade with people who don't care enough to keep proper digital archives.

That is why I am hoping Trader's Den will become known as a "Mark of Quality", I don't see much hope for most of those other sites.

RainDawg
2005-08-11, 04:42 PM
Damn, are you Stephen in disguise (RainDawg here, or sol4578 on STG)? He has a similar idea for here.

Actually, I am he. I used to be known as sol4590 (sol4578 sound like an imposter).

I think this is my first post in the public board in a number of months, so hello again everyone!

RainDawg
2005-08-11, 04:53 PM
As to the contents of this thread, which Lynne asked me to comment on, here's the concept that I came up with about a year ago:

Every torrent, after being uploaded, would have a unique database entry added. It would record the fingerprint that was submitted when the seed was started. It would also allow certain users to "rate" the shows, filling in information in a simple form such as "sector aligned", "digitally flawless", etc. That way, when someone down the road would grab a show, they could look it up on TTD, compare the audio checksums, and see what other people had to say about it. They could cerify that their audio was identical to what was uploaded, make sure it was digitally flawless, etc.

The project was stalled because I was unable to convince enough people that we should require ONLY shntool md5s and/or ffps to be sent. As you all know, wholefile md5s would make the database obsolete before it was even rolled, as the etree database has become with the widespread adoption of flac seeds.

After going through many months of discussion on the topic, and too many people unwilling to budge on learning to use shntool, I abandoned it. Many of you may recall my since-abandoned project to bring the world an shntool frontend, which would have facilitated the adoption of this project. My free time dried up, the project steadily slipped on my priority list, and eventually both the frontend and the database got shelved due to my not having anyone with time/motivation to help.

But yes, what has been mentioned in this thread is very similar to my idea. In the months since then, I've learned enough php/mysql to do this project myself, but right now I do not have the time to pick it back up. In fact, over the past 1/2 a year I've not really had much to do anything music related, and my collection has fallen into a bit of disarray....but that's a topic for another thread I suppose.

jcrab66
2005-08-11, 05:35 PM
This subject is actually one of my biggest pet-peeves. Almost half of the files I download need to be renamed before I decode and burn them.

WOW, Really? Why? :rolleyes:

jcrab66
2005-08-11, 05:39 PM
But let's look at the opposite extreme, "taper unknown", and shows with many versions (boots and otherwise). Then I advocate that we loosen the rules "just enough" to get the music out there in the hands of the fans.


This may be the only sensible thing you have said in this thread...

saltman
2005-08-11, 05:46 PM
RainDawg - I find your "Video Seeing Policy" in your signature down right offensive. I mean who is to say what is to be seen and what is not. :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :rolleyes: :rolleyes: j/k

guygee
2005-08-11, 06:50 PM
As to the contents of this thread, which Lynne asked me to comment on, here's the concept that I came up with about a year ago:

Every torrent, after being uploaded, would have a unique database entry added. It would record the fingerprint that was submitted when the seed was started. It would also allow certain users to "rate" the shows, filling in information in a simple form such as "sector aligned", "digitally flawless", etc. That way, when someone down the road would grab a show, they could look it up on TTD, compare the audio checksums, and see what other people had to say about it. They could cerify that their audio was identical to what was uploaded, make sure it was digitally flawless, etc.

The project was stalled because I was unable to convince enough people that we should require ONLY shntool md5s and/or ffps to be sent. As you all know, wholefile md5s would make the database obsolete before it was even rolled, as the etree database has become with the widespread adoption of flac seeds.

After going through many months of discussion on the topic, and too many people unwilling to budge on learning to use shntool, I abandoned it. Many of you may recall my since-abandoned project to bring the world an shntool frontend, which would have facilitated the adoption of this project. My free time dried up, the project steadily slipped on my priority list, and eventually both the frontend and the database got shelved due to my not having anyone with time/motivation to help.

But yes, what has been mentioned in this thread is very similar to my idea. In the months since then, I've learned enough php/mysql to do this project myself, but right now I do not have the time to pick it back up. In fact, over the past 1/2 a year I've not really had much to do anything music related, and my collection has fallen into a bit of disarray....but that's a topic for another thread I suppose.

The "Trader's Little Helper" frontend that feralacious kindly directed me to is so easy to use, there should be no more excuses for not having st5's/ffp's and a shntool.txt in your upload folder. Seriously, I am going back and using it on all my shows (and doing a lot of SBE fixes). Here is a suggestion: if the seeder's don't use it, leave a placeholder in the DB that we are discussing, and let one of the serious collectors for that show upload it themselves. Same goes for infofiles, shntool LEN output and spectrograph screen captures. Then, give them credit for contributing. If they get it wrong, all eyes will see. db.etree works pretty much like that, the user's contribute showinfo for most of the shows.

Gotta go for a few hours, let me know what you think of this approach.

guygee
2005-08-11, 06:53 PM
This may be the only sensible thing you have said in this thread...

Well thanks jcrab66 (I think).

First show I tape is dedicated to you and freezer...

U2Lynne
2005-08-11, 07:13 PM
First show I tape is dedicated to you and freezer...
:roflol:

Sorry I got your old screen name wrong, Stephen. I knew it started with Sol.... :)

And Guy, we actually do allow CDR(x) on the older shows because we *know* that getting a master copy is pretty unrealistic and same thing with unknown source. We have plenty of those. But, when someone says they have no lineage at all, that is not true. If they got a CDR in a trade, the lineage would still look something like: CDR(x) > EAC > wav > TLH > flac and so we *want* that lineage stated. What we don't want, of course, is CDR(x) when there is the original Silver that the CDR(x) was copied from or if there are lossless files from the taper already out there in existance. I think you probably know a lot of that, but I just thought I ought to state it for anyone else reading this thread.

freezer
2005-08-11, 09:29 PM
Well thanks jcrab66 (I think).

First show I tape is dedicated to you and freezer...

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Well thanks guygee (I think.)

But I won't hold my breath waiting. :lmao:

And about the 9 previously UNCIRCULATED shows I just sent out to 3 different folks here at TTD, should I have sent more lineage than cdr(x)???

I sincerely hope that's enough lineage to help you out with your project.

"I just thought I ought to state it for anyone else reading this thread."

:rolleyes:


And Guy, we actually do allow CDR(x)........

........I think you probably know a lot of that, but I just thought I ought to state it for anyone else reading this thread.

:lol

guygee
2005-08-11, 10:50 PM
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Well thanks guygee (I think.)

But I won't hold my breath waiting. :lmao:


Funny, freezer, I was going to add the same disclaimer, But when I DO go see a show, you and jcrab66 convinced me, what could it hurt to wear a stealth set-up? I know that I would love to have the master tape of most shows I have seen in my life, and I would be happy to share if it was worthwhile listening. So I am going to start researching gear, and keep my eyes out for artists and bands that I like, hopefully in a small venue. Like, if Ornette Coleman comes around, I'll be on it.


And about the 9 previously UNCIRCULATED shows I just sent out to 3 different folks here at TTD, should I have sent more lineage than cdr(x)???


I am sure the TTD folks would want all of the lineage they can get. But we are not always so fortunate. Does Peter Losin have all the lineage for all the shows listed on his "Miles Ahead" site? That's a definite no, I am sure, but I'll wager he spent 100's or 1000's of hours trading for multiple versions and sorting though his collection looking for best sources. If he can do it, with all of the good people here we should be able to do it too.

I think you mentioned somewhere that you took a break for awhile, so probably Nth-gen versions of your shows circulated then without lineage, but fortunately you came back and now we can have the some of the masters. We are lucky that you have been so kind. But some tapers don't come back. The plan would be to work our way up in quality, even though we might not always know the lineage at least we can listen as a group and use spectral analysis tools to help decide what is "best circulating source".

jcrab66
2005-08-11, 11:43 PM
So I am going to start researching gear



if you need any help or advice in regards to this then send me a PM, happy to help...

freezer
2005-08-12, 12:23 AM
Funny, freezer, I was going to add the same disclaimer....


Go ahead, the first package I was to which I was referring already arrived before this thread started.

doorcoq should have something up this weekend. :lol

And you will be making your first tape......when??? ;)


I am sure the TTD folks would want all of the lineage they can get. But we are not always so fortunate. Does Peter Losin have all the lineage for all the shows listed on his "Miles Ahead" site? That's a definite no, I am sure, but I'll wager he spent 100's or 1000's of hours trading for multiple versions and sorting though his collection looking for best sources. If he can do it, with all of the good people here we should be able to do it too.

Using an example of a site laced with faulty lineage is only good if no one calls your bluff and looks at it. The only Miles tape I definitely, POSITIVELY know about on his list has a wrong source of origin...Caveat Emptor, baby...

AND I sincerely doubt that you are pushing for a rating system that simplistic....or maybe you are. Simple as ABC, right?

:hmm:

If you think that you will ever get a consensus of "ears" deciding on "the best sounding source", then I really do have some swamp land to sell you down here in southern Louisiana. You'll be lucky to get folks to follow the guidelines IF any are established...

Spectral analysis??? You can't get a consensus without a scorecard and you know it.

Or you can just go back to the tried and true system used by bootleggers and their fans; fabricating bogus lineages...

"Rinse, wash, repeat....." indeed... :lol

Plus I am not the only 70's taper to resurface, I've heard from quite a few over on dime who lurk only. Most feel the same as I do. They're just not as vociferous as I.

I think you mentioned somewhere that you took a break for awhile, so probably Nth-gen versions of your shows circulated then without lineage, but fortunately you came back and now we can have the some of the masters. We are lucky that you have been so kind. But some tapers don't come back. The plan would be to work our way up in quality, even though we might not always know the lineage at least we can listen as a group and use spectral analysis tools to help decide what is "best circulating source".

No masters of any tapes previously used for bootlegs from me, I thought I explained that I wasn't interested in covering previously released shows.

"If the best you can get is an unverified generation, then everybody has an even playing field."

Besides we're all going to be waiting on your first taping effort to be released... :clap: :clap: :clap: That's the plan, as I see it.

OR
Maybe you can get a tape made before the "Old Capt'n" gets them torrents out that he posted about.
>>>Help wanted bringing torrents to TTD. (6/30/05)<<<
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8840

:rolleyes:

Five
2005-08-12, 01:45 AM
As mentioned earlier, TLH has really changed everything when it comes to .st5. xAct has also adapted this as their standard extension, so we're going ahead and getting .st5 sums for all SHN & APE sets as much as we can keep up with it. Since most ppl are seeding FLAC these days the .st5 is readily available via .ffp. So we're very close to the database becoming a reality, all we really need is a man of vision to guide us along (*hint hint*).

Thanks, freezer. I know all of those shows will be quality stuff.

guygee
2005-08-12, 03:15 AM
Besides we're all going to be waiting on your first taping effort to be released... :clap: :clap: :clap: That's the plan, as I see it.


freezer - I just clicked "buy it now" on one of those old mono radio shack cassette players on ebay, paypalled, and had it fedexed to me. I plan to hold the microphone up to my speakers, and tape "Lite Jazz in the Morning" on the local PBS, day after tomorrow.

The seed will quickly follow.

range_hood
2005-08-12, 05:20 AM
I think wholefile md5s with the info of the state of the audiofile (f.e. *.shn, non seekable) could be useful at the beginning of creating the database. Like on the Zeppelin Digital series, that were seeded five years ago as shn and the original md5s are available. Then someone with the matching files could up the fingerprints.

AAR.oner
2005-08-12, 08:22 AM
freezer - I just clicked "buy it now" on one of those old mono radio shack cassette players on ebay, paypalled, and had it fedexed to me. I plan to hold the microphone up to my speakers, and tape "Lite Jazz in the Morning" on the local PBS, day after tomorrow.

The seed will quickly follow.
:lol :lol :lol are you sure about cassette Guy? i hear MD is by far the best you can get these days...and ATRAC sounds *just like* a 24bit 96kHz recording :lol:

freezer
2005-08-12, 10:48 AM
freezer - I just clicked "buy it now" on one of those old mono radio shack cassette players on ebay, paypalled, and had it fedexed to me. I plan to hold the microphone up to my speakers, and tape "Lite Jazz in the Morning" on the local PBS, day after tomorrow.

The seed will quickly follow.

Wow, as you can seed it to yourself, of course using your own "standards for naming torrent files" -- you should be very happy knowing at least one person followed your suggestions.

Unless you decide to bootleg it and sell it to yourself. With bogus lineage.

Or you could just head over to the lounge and donate money for someone to tape/video U2. :lol Then you can explain to those guys how you'd like them to follow your "standards"......

I'll bet they'll do exactly as you "suggest"........ ;)

guygee
2005-08-12, 12:08 PM
Using an example of a site laced with faulty lineage is only good if no one calls your bluff and looks at it. The only Miles tape I definitely, POSITIVELY know about on his list has a wrong source of origin...Caveat Emptor, baby...


Your warnings on faulty lineage are well-taken, especially on the shows you taped yourself, but if you can find only one error on Peter Losin's list , why do you say it is "laced with faulty lineage"?

Caveat Emptor? How about Absente Reo?

Here's the link to Peter Losin's Miles Davis tape list:

http://www.plosin.com/milesAhead/Tapes.aspx?a=audio

If you can give me some definite information on the error you found, I'll email Peter and try to get his comments. Who knows, maybe he will even answer...

range_hood
2005-08-12, 03:34 PM
For resurfacing coorporate identity hits my eye, like The MaloneyJoe Archive or Zeppelin Digital, Whoweeds or some releases like the Dancing avocado supreme that looks like a commercial bootleg, helps keeping recordings in mind.
Bundled with a link to a master database with fingerprints chances are high lineages remain accurate, as long as the initial seeders ones were.

You could also do some overkill and add "spectral fingerprints" to yer files. Sure a master database would still be needed.

Thanks to Five (http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/member.php?find=lastposter&t=1405) for pointing that out.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2328/sfp8nd.th.gif (http://img202.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sfp8nd.gif)

Some other offtopic.
Thereīs a german forum whose coder implemented an offtopic checkbox where users could mark their posts as so and others could hide all these.
I donīt know how hard this is to realize, but I think this is very useful.

guygee
2005-08-12, 04:11 PM
range_hood - I am glad you took those spectral fingerprints and started that topic on the whoweeds series:

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10550

Those pictures speak a thousand words, especially if you know how to read them.

In cases where you can never get "true" lineage all the way back to the source (regardless of whether is it is lineage lost or dubious), I do not think including them in the master database would be overkill. This, of course, includes all bootleg copies by default (are there any bootlegs truly "straight from the Masters"? I've never seen such).

Are the whoweeds series really "best circulating sources"? I could quickly check my tapes against the spectral prints you posted , using "Sound Frequency Analyzer" and a cable from my deck to my computer. It would be very easy to see if my tapes have the same agressive NR as on some of those shows, given the prints you made.

I am going to include your prints in my show documentation, and append the directories like *_WhoWeeds.shnf

freezer
2005-08-12, 04:58 PM
Your warnings on faulty lineage are well-taken, especially on the shows you taped yourself, but if you can find only one error on Peter Losin's list , why do you say it is "laced with faulty lineage"?

Caveat Emptor? How about Absente Reo?

Here's the link to Peter Losin's Miles Davis tape list:

http://www.plosin.com/milesAhead/Tapes.aspx?a=audio

If you can give me some definite information on the error you found, I'll email Peter and try to get his comments. Who knows, maybe he will even answer...


If I can spot one error I'm absolutely positive about, then I'm sure the list owner did much the same in 'determining' lineage on the rest. (Personally, I see it like this: If I spot one or two obvious mistakes, #1. I would be hesitant to accept the veracity of anything else on his list. I might trade, but I would not believe his "lineage" -- sorry if you or anyone doesn't understand that, but I have over 35 years of collecting experience behind me. This is a lesson that one learns through all facets of the collecting experience, not something gleaned by sitting behind a computer keyboard.)

No, he doesn't have the other Miles recording I'm positive about (a 1973 show in New Orleans) but what do I care if he has correct data on his list.

Did Mr Losin care that the taper was absent when he made his pronouncement?

"Absente Reo" - good one. I like it.

Looks like you finally figured out that in many cases, it's not the taper's fault that some self-appointed 'expert' makes a really pretty web site, now is it?

Who cares if the taper seen errors, right? Absente Reo indeed.

Caveat Emptor, baby.

guygee
2005-08-12, 07:02 PM
If I can spot one error I'm absolutely positive about, then I'm sure the list owner did much the same in 'determining' lineage on the rest. (Personally, I see it like this: If I spot one or two obvious mistakes, #1. I would be hesitant to accept the veracity of anything else on his list. I might trade, but I would not believe his "lineage" -- sorry if you or anyone doesn't understand that, but I have over 35 years of collecting experience behind me. This is a lesson that one learns through all facets of the collecting experience, not something gleaned by sitting behind a computer keyboard.)


OK , freezer, I do not think Mr. Losin was or is a taper, just a very determined collector. So the lesson is, if we do not tape the show ourselves, or know the taper, or at least correspond with the taper, then all lineage (and by "lineage" I mean lineage from the SOURCE recording) is suspect. Also, lineage can be fabricated. Lesson learned.

BTW, to others, I do not think this discussion has been off-topic, only perhaps filled with distractions and (sometimes biting, stinging) humor.

freezer
2005-08-13, 01:33 AM
OK , freezer, I do not think Mr. Losin was or is a taper, just a very determined collector. So the lesson is, if we do not tape the show ourselves, or know the taper, or at least correspond with the taper, then all lineage (and by "lineage" I mean lineage from the SOURCE recording) is suspect. Also, lineage can be fabricated. Lesson learned..

Take notes, there'll be a test later. :rolleyes:

You might still even correspond with the taper and still not get a positive answer as to generation.

Mike Millard absolutely detested non-taping traders. What makes anyone think that any of his master tapes were digitally cloned and are circulating in a definite and verifiable generation? I'd venture to guess that the best chance you have of tracking down something he taped in a verifiable generation is to locate someone who was a taper and who actually traded with him.

But there are lots of Led Zepplin collectors who are convinced that they have clones of verifiable generation copies of his recordings. It doesn't take much presence of mind to find such collectors.

I knew Mike and traded with him and I still don't believe that I can prove I have first gen copies of his tapes even with his handwriting on the cassette j-card.


Now consider this:

Here's an announcement that I received in today's mail from Mr Fish-head E.S.: The Battle of Baton Rouge (2/28/75) 3 CD Empress Valley Label $97

If anyone thinks that this bootlegger is doing anything but selling a copy of a torrent picked up off dime or R-O then I really have some swampland to sell 'em also. :lol :lol :lol

(Thanks Bram.......)


BTW, to others, I do not think this discussion has been off-topic, only perhaps filled with distractions and (sometimes biting, stinging) humor.

Have you said you considered something humorous, Guy?

I hadn't noticed.... ;)

guygee
2005-08-13, 11:37 AM
You might still even correspond with the taper and still not get a positive answer as to generation.

Mike Millard absolutely detested non-taping traders. What makes anyone think that any of his master tapes were digitally cloned and are circulating in a definite and verifiable generation? I'd venture to guess that the best chance you have of tracking down something he taped in a verifiable generation is to locate someone who was a taper and who actually traded with him.

But there are lots of Led Zepplin collectors who are convinced that they have clones of verifiable generation copies of his recordings. It doesn't take much presence of mind to find such collectors.

I knew Mike and traded with him and I still don't believe that I can prove I have first gen copies of his tapes even with his handwriting on the cassette j-card.


Is this an "I only believe in lineage for shows I personally taped" philosophy, or was taper Mike known to be a prankster or something? If the former, then 1st gens might as well not exist; we know that they DO exist, but we can never be sure if a particular recording is 1st gen.


Now consider this:

Here's an announcement that I received in today's mail from Mr Fish-head E.S.: The Battle of Baton Rouge (2/28/75) 3 CD Empress Valley Label $97

If anyone thinks that this bootlegger is doing anything but selling a copy of a torrent picked up off dime or R-O then I really have some swampland to sell 'em also. :lol :lol :lol

(Thanks Bram.......)


Well, hundreds of collectors must have also grabbed it. At least a few of them will be serious collectors who will properly document where they got it, etc. If it a worthwhile show, it will get reseeded. Plus, if I really want the show, I can track down collectors on google, inquire about their archiving practices, find the serious collectors, and trade for it.

When you pointed out that many Dylan collectors have a fetish for boots, I never thought about it before, but I have to admit you are right. But at least they have carefully documented the quality of the boots. Personally, I have far more Dylan on cassette than on actual boots, and the boots are only of his very earliest work (which is probably best preserved on certain bootlegs).

As for Bram and booters, I think torrenting will eventually put the booters out of business (maybe I'm just an optimist). As for people too lazy to keep good archives and trade, or too impatient to wait for the reseed, maybe they deserve to pay the price. Booters, you gotta hate 'em, but perhaps their only redemption is, at least in some cases, they helped preserve music that might be otherwise be lost or never circulated. A few (very few in my limited experience) even care about quality.


Have you said you considered something humorous, Guy?

I hadn't noticed.... ;)
Must be a lack of sense of humor on my part. Some of your posts have lots of those little laughing faces, rolls-eyes and such, maybe those are just aids to help you get your point across. For example:

Take notes, there'll be a test later. :rolleyes:

I think it is funny that when I concede your logical point(s), you still throw in these types of comments with the appropriate funny-face selection. Humour, at the expense of others (me in this case). When you are in "serious mode", I would much rather hear what else you have to say then respond in like manner to these little asides, plus I guess maybe you are trying to tell me something like, "when are you gonna get it?" In this case, first you tell me I should respect your 35 years experience as a taper, then you poke a little fun at me when I go into "student-mode".

And to anyone else who might have bothered to read this far, I think freezer has made his case to any rational person that we should be skeptical about any "full" lineage that traces music back to the Master recording.

All this just reinforces the argument that we should have "versioned" torrents and a DB with complete documentation, because if we must be skeptical about the full lineage, at least we can be certain about the partial lineage. The "partial lineage" is the lineage that starts from a known "reference point".
The reference point could be a bootleg, it could be one of freezer's actual master tapes that he kindly donated, but (and freezer's arguments only reinforce this point) the only "reference point" we can be absolutely sure of is the torrent itself. If the torrent is not versioned and documented, we can be sure of nothing. I can only hope TTD decides to take on this project.

And one last point on documentation: "Silver CD > EAC> wav>flac" or "CDr(x)> EAC>wav>flac" are not examples of partial lineage unless the EAC logs are included. So add that to the documentation list.

freezer
2005-08-13, 01:23 PM
.......was taper Mike known to be a prankster or something?....

Prankster, not really. Something else entirely.

A curmudgeon who rightly thought that non-taping collectors were lower than leeches. (Bloodsuckers is the term he used.)

The recording quality he achieved is now "legendary" among collectors who know his work.

He passed away a number of years ago and the master recordings he made are locked away and are since unaccesable to anyone.

Yet, there are collectors and bootleggers who tout that they do have copies of his "masters." (either deceitfully or innocently, these "good collectors" still polute the trade pool)

Also take into account that he would "mark" copies traded out. He did things like making "drop-outs" on copies (or similar "markings" only he knew about) and he kept notes so as to be able to discern where a bootleg had originated.

So it is highly dubious that unedited master clones of his recordings are in circulation. But you'll see them on lists or offered as torrents.




(RE: Led Zepplin 2/28/75)
Well, hundreds of collectors must have also grabbed it. At least a few of them will be serious collectors who will properly document where they got it, etc. If it a worthwhile show, it will get reseeded. Plus, if I really want the show, I can track down collectors on google, inquire about their archiving practices, find the serious collectors, and trade for it.

That tape has seen more than 10 different bootleg permutations, and it is generally considered a "must-have" Led Zeppelin tape. However, there is no verifiable generation in circulation. Yes, you will see certain collectors' lists claiming a "low gen" or "master" copy, but that's truly bogus lineage.

Trade for it all you want, but as far as a verified generation, that you won't find.

You may have to go back to searching for the "best sounding version" method in this case.

Oh, and just so you know, many of the collectors with the bogus lineage on 2/28/75 Led Zeppelin consider themselves "serious collectors."

The same holds true for the Pink Floyd 4/28/77 Baton Rouge. "Serious collectors" believe they have a low gen copy, but that's just not true and don't try to change their minds with the truth either.



When you pointed out that many Dylan collectors have a fetish for boots, I never thought about it before, but I have to admit you are right. But at least they have carefully documented the quality of the boots. Personally, I have far more Dylan on cassette than on actual boots, and the boots are only of his very earliest work (which is probably best preserved on certain bootlegs).

"Carefully documented"??? C'mon. The last torrent of 5/3/76 late New Orleans Warehouse (over on dime) gave the lineage as "This is a great show that has been released several times in the past, always incomplete. This is the best version to date."

That's "carefully documented"?????

(see for yourself: http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=52429 )

And as for "earliest work........do you consider 5/3/76 to be "earliest work"????

It does come from a time when many of the folks into "torrents" weren't yet born...... :lol



As for Bram and booters, I think torrenting will eventually put the booters out of business (maybe I'm just an optimist).

You are definitely an optimist. Not a bad thing to be, but CDR was also supposed to put the bootleggers out of business, The internet was supposed to put the bootleggers out of business, This trading site was supposed to put the bootleggers out of business, etc etc etc.

Each one in turn helped make the bootleggers job a lot easier.

Your "standards for naming file folders" will help the bootleggers job get easier also. It comes with the territory.



. Booters, you gotta hate 'em, but perhaps their only redemption is, at least in some cases, they helped preserve music that might be otherwise be lost or never circulated. A few (very few in my limited experience) even care about quality.

Didn't Capone says something like that about his bootlegging operation?

Oh, yeah, he said he was performing a public duty. ("When I sell liquor, it's called bootlegging; when my patrons serve it on Lake Shore Drive, it's called hospitality." This is what's known as rationalization. You'll find a prime example in your previous paragraph, about bootleggers "preserving music".....They are preserving their bank accounts at the expense of genuine collectors and 'archivists'.)



Must be a lack of sense of humor on my part. Some of your posts have lots of those little laughing faces, rolls-eyes and such, maybe those are just aids to help you get your point across. I think it is funny that when I concede your logical point(s), you still throw in these types of comments with the appropriate funny-face selection

Ah, grasshopper, "a lack of sense of humor"??? :rolleyes:

Not you.... :eek:

You've been a good sport, not like the guys who chime in just to attack.

We've been able to agree AND agree to disagree, hmmmmmmm?



In the interim, try this link, for a start:
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?p=185952#post185952

Now where's that show you recorded .... :lol :lol :lol